Fred - £47m well spent

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AndyMUFC said:
There's no point getting rid of him yet because you're not gonna sign multiple midfielders in one transfer window and we need midfielders even with him.

He shouldn't be starting games every week but he's got a role to play in the squad. Wasn't worth the money at the time but that doesn't matter anymore.
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Sort of leaning towards this - the transfer fee - it's a sunk cost by now, and if he agrees to a reasonable wage, i'd extend just to have bodies in midfield for the squad - unless of course EtH think some of the youngsters are ready to fill that role and we could even command a fee for Fred/get him off the wage book.

The signing hasn't been anywhere near "well spent" or a "success".
 
I think Fred is a quality player but is heavily depended on his midfiled partner and is very unpredicitable. Given a choice between a player who gives a 7/10 perfomance week in week out and player who gives 3/10 one week and next week a MOTM performance most of us would take a predictable player.
 
Kostov said:
What kind of crap is this, what is a modern CM in your definition? Fred is comfortably a modern CM? :lol:
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Can run all day for pressing and attacking. Prime example is Wijnaldum, he was never a world class player but he won a CL and PL title.

There's a reason why he is a Man Utd player and a Brazilian international.
 
Red the Bear said:
I like Fred but butt was easily on a higher level than what Fred is on, I can't imagine Fred putting on a similar display of to what butt did in the 99 cl final for example.
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The standard of players in weaker teams from PL pre 2010s has so much gap in quality, I believe even Butt looks like a prime scholes during that time.

Fred had handful of games where he actually performed like a beast. This is what Fred is, he isn't world class, but his standard is actually quite high for a CM.
 
Sunny Jim said:
I think Fred is a quality player but is heavily depended on his midfiled partner and is very unpredicitable. Given a choice between a player who gives a 7/10 perfomance week in week out and player who gives 3/10 one week and next week a MOTM performance most of us would take a predictable player.
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what are his qualities? he has more flaws than strengths. If he played for a rival he would be dissed.
 
Again, I'll say it, he's the most misunderstood player going.

He's not a 6 or an 8, he's a defensive 10, perfect for winning the ball high up the pitch, turning over the ball, intercepting and being a general nuisance. Like a 2023 Park but with less attacking ability.

He's role is unique, niche and nuanced. He's not a first XI player, he's a utility player for certain situations, scenarios and opponents.

When you judge him through this lens, he's a good player.
 
The bare minimum for a player to be considered quality is to not have multiple stinkers every season. Fred doesn't pass this threshold, and it doesn't matter if he has 2-3 great games per season, if he's going to be anonymous for most of the rest, and a complete disaster as many times as he's been good.

For CM especially, one key quality is reliability and trust. He doesn't have those.
 
Sunny Jim said:
I think Fred is a quality player but is heavily depended on his midfiled partner and is very unpredicitable. Given a choice between a player who gives a 7/10 perfomance week in week out and player who gives 3/10 one week and next week a MOTM performance most of us would take a predictable player.
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We would but that analogy doesn't really bear any relevance to Fred. Hes a 7/10 player 20% of the time and the rest of the time hes a 5/10 who makes costly mistakes. Hes not clinical at all in front of goal and he causes you no end of defensive issues when hes got the ball in front of the defence.

He isn't a steady eddy apart from the effort levels he puts in. As you say, his midfield partner makes a huge difference but that just hides some of his flaws and compensates a bit for them. It doesn't fix the fact he is a limited player and if we have any serious ambition he shouldn't be in the team.

I don't know if he should be a squad option or not. Probably for the next season, yes. Hes more valuable than the likes of McTominay. If we get another couple of quality midfielders in though he will play very little.

I love Fred and he is one of the few players I didn't want thrown out of the club after last season but we have kept far too many players far too long who are not good enough. That needs to stop.
 
Stacks said:
what are his qualities? he has more flaws than strengths. If he played for a rival he would be dissed.
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Strength:
  1. He is a great counter presser.
  2. He got an elite engine/stamina
  3. Defensively decent
  4. He is quite agile
  5. Decent shooting
  6. Decent ball carrying
  7. Little bit of Brazilian flair sometimes (but most of the times brainfarts)
Flaws:
  1. Consistency issues: when he is good, he is damn good, but when he is playing bad, he is the worst.
  2. Spatial awareness is average
  3. Passing is average
  4. Low aerial ability
  5. Low composure
  6. Low composure leads to bad touch, although his technical ability is good.
Yeah he is not world class alright, but those qualities can be used correctly. With ETH, I'm sure he can contribute like he is currently doing now.
 
meamth said:
Strength:
  1. He is a great counter presser.
  2. He got an elite engine/stamina
  3. Defensively decent
  4. He is quite agile
  5. Decent shooting
  6. Decent ball carrying
  7. Little bit of Brazilian flair sometimes (but most of the times brainfarts)
Flaws:
  1. Consistency issues: when he is good, he is damn good, but when he is playing bad, he is the worst.
  2. Spatial awareness is average
  3. Passing is average
  4. Low aerial ability
  5. Low composure
  6. Low composure leads to bad touch, although his technical ability is good.
Yeah he is not world class alright, but those qualities can be used correctly. With ETH, I'm sure he can contribute like he is currently doing now.
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Great counter presser... Headless chicken. You say tomato....
 
We should keep him for the sheer unpredictability he brings. Will he have an amazing game and press the life out of the opposition or will he play like he's drunk?

Really is the spiritual successor to Anderson and we should always have someone this chaotic at the club imo.
 
Eplel said:
He's not a good ball winner. He misses almost all his 50/50 chances to get the ball.
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Has a 50% tackle win rate according to the PL website.

Has lost most of his duels too, whatever they class those as and had won about 100 50/50s, so less than 1 a game.

I have no idea what anyone sees in him to be honest. He's not really good at anything consistently that you could say he has even one defining quality.

The only thing he's shown consistently is that his performances are as predictable at the lottery.
 
Eplel said:
Sorry I didn't realise you don't watch football.
"50/50 chance" refers to situations where 2 opposing players challenge for the ball with seemingly equal chance to get first to it and win it.
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Sorry didn't realize you didn't get what I was saying. He wins the ball OFF, players.

The fact you are calling out that IN A SCENARIO DEFINED AS 50/50 HE ONLY WINS THE BALL 50% OF THE TIME is hilarious and shows you don't watch football.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Sorry didn't realize you didn't get what I was saying. He wins the ball OFF, players.

The fact you are calling out that IN A SCENARIO DEFINED AS 50/50 HE ONLY WINS THE BALL 50% OF THE TIME is hilarious and shows you don't watch football.
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I never said 50% of the time, learn to read.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Ball winning, tackling, pressures, turnovers, stamina.
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Pressures and stamina, I would rate him high on that.

Turnover - if you mean turning the ball over to opposition i.e. mis-pass, he is almost as criminal as Bruno but perhaps less than Pogba & Maguire.

Ball winning - he lost a lot of 50-50 challenges particularly last season. He somewhat improved last few games but too early to draw conclusion on improvement.
 
cyril C said:
Pressures and stamina, I would rate him high on that.

Turnover - if you mean turning the ball over to opposition i.e. mis-pass, he is almost as criminal as Bruno but perhaps less than Pogba & Maguire.

Ball winning - he lost a lot of 50-50 challenges particularly last season. He somewhat improved last few games but too early to draw conclusion on improvement.
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Why on earth can people in this thread only define "ball winning" as 50/50?!

He can win the ball off people.
 
Eplel said:
Mate, seriously, go get checked.

50/50 = a situation that can go either way
50% = half the time

any person with a brain can see that 50/50 is not the same as 50/100.
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Mate, start wearing a helmet, brain injuries are serious.

I spoke on his ball-winning, you made it about 50/50's (why?!), then moaned he doesn't win them enough.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Again, I'll say it, he's the most misunderstood player going.

He's not a 6 or an 8, he's a defensive 10, perfect for winning the ball high up the pitch, turning over the ball, intercepting and being a general nuisance. Like a 2023 Park but with less attacking ability.

He's role is unique, niche and nuanced. He's not a first XI player, he's a utility player for certain situations, scenarios and opponents.

When you judge him through this lens, he's a good player.
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This does
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Ball winning, tackling, pressures, turnovers, stamina.
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meamth said:
Strength:
  1. He is a great counter presser.
  2. He got an elite engine/stamina
  3. Defensively decent
  4. He is quite agile
  5. Decent shooting
  6. Decent ball carrying
  7. Little bit of Brazilian flair sometimes (but most of the times brainfarts)
Flaws:
  1. Consistency issues: when he is good, he is damn good, but when he is playing bad, he is the worst.
  2. Spatial awareness is average
  3. Passing is average
  4. Low aerial ability
  5. Low composure
  6. Low composure leads to bad touch, although his technical ability is good.
Yeah he is not world class alright, but those qualities can be used correctly. With ETH, I'm sure he can contribute like he is currently doing now.
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meamth said:
Strength:
  1. He is a great counter presser.
  2. He got an elite engine/stamina
  3. Defensively decent
  4. He is quite agile
  5. Decent shooting
  6. Decent ball carrying
  7. Little bit of Brazilian flair sometimes (but most of the times brainfarts)
Flaws:
  1. Consistency issues: when he is good, he is damn good, but when he is playing bad, he is the worst.
  2. Spatial awareness is average
  3. Passing is average
  4. Low aerial ability
  5. Low composure
  6. Low composure leads to bad touch, although his technical ability is good.
Yeah he is not world class alright, but those qualities can be used correctly. With ETH, I'm sure he can contribute like he is currently doing now.
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this is blasphemous. He is not decent at shooting. 6.7% of his shots go in which is one of the lowest in our team. What does being agile lead to as a strength, as in what positive impact? The brazilian flair, how does that translate to a strength if its mostly brainfarts? Surely its a negative?
You said his technical ability is good. What aspect? His 1st touch leads to his 2nd being a tackle. His passing is hilarious. One of the least Brazilian Brazilians I have seen in a good few years.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
I spoke on his ball-winning, you made it about 50/50's (why?!), then moaned he doesn't win them enough.
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Because 1, winning the 50/50 is "ball winning", and 2, his ability to win the ball OFF the opponents is also very very questionable. Do you have a stat to back this up?
 
No.

We can't be happy with these players if we are serious about stepping up to the next level. Fred is an average footballer, wouldn't look out of place at Bournemouth etc this season. Plays without any ambition, and little care. The decent game, is then followed by extremely average performances, and then you throw in the awful games.

Sell him. Why not? You think we would miss him?
 
meamth said:
Can run all day for pressing and attacking. Prime example is Wijnaldum, he was never a world class player but he won a CL and PL title.

There's a reason why he is a Man Utd player and a Brazilian international.
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There's the "small" difference between Wijnaldum and Fred though. Gigi was pretty good with the ball at his feet, besides running all day that is.
 
meamth said:
Strength:
  1. He is a great counter presser.
  2. He got an elite engine/stamina
  3. Defensively decent
  4. He is quite agile
  5. Decent shooting
  6. Decent ball carrying
  7. Little bit of Brazilian flair sometimes (but most of the times brainfarts)
Flaws:
  1. Consistency issues: when he is good, he is damn good, but when he is playing bad, he is the worst.
  2. Spatial awareness is average
  3. Passing is average
  4. Low aerial ability
  5. Low composure
  6. Low composure leads to bad touch, although his technical ability is good.
Yeah he is not world class alright, but those qualities can be used correctly. With ETH, I'm sure he can contribute like he is currently doing now.
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Decent shooting :wenger:

And he is the most unbrazilian footballer you will ever see.
 
Eplel said:
Because 1, winning the 50/50 is "ball winning", and 2, his ability to win the ball OFF the opponents is also very very questionable. Do you have a stat to back this up?
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Fred has won 67% of his tackles this year according to InfoGol, in his career in the prem, it is 51% of all tackles.
 
How can anyone say Fred is a quality player?

He's a central midfielder with a bad first touch, that's enough of a limitation to make him no more than a decent CM. You want him as far away from your box as possible when receiving the ball. I mean Deeney let the cat out the bag that Fred is the trigger for the press when deeper.

So then you say he's better in the other half of the pitch? Yes but his ability on the ball in advanced positions is still dreadful. He's a poor shooter and an erratic passer.

Admittedly his pressing and workrate is as good as you can get and he does manage to get himself in good positions but it means little to me if all his good work comes in between multiple feck ups.

The Barcelona games are coming up, will anyone be surprised if he has an absolute stinker in one of them? Its the Fred way, he guarantees terrible performances way too often.
 
Kostov said:
Decent shooting :wenger:

And he is the most unbrazilian footballer you will ever see.
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I've seen flashes of brilliance with his dribbling.

Top bin goals is rarity in the premier league or even any top league. Fred can hit the ball constantly. Yes there were howlers and hoofs but he has hit some wonderful shots over the years.

Fred isn't your typical classy type of player, maybe chaotic

But he is comfortably PL quality player. Coaches keep playing him, we don't know why as arm chair football experts, but he is here as professional football player. Saying he is rubbish with no qualities is just being daft and disrespectful.
 
meamth said:
I've seen flashes of brilliance with his dribbling.

Top bin goals is rarity in the premier league or even any top league. Fred can hit the ball constantly. Yes there were howlers and hoofs but he has hit some wonderful shots over the years.

Fred isn't your typical classy type of player, maybe chaotic

But he is comfortably PL quality player. Coaches keep playing him, we don't know why as arm chair football experts, but he is here as professional football player. Saying he is rubbish with no qualities is just being daft and disrespectful.
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Christ man, Fred does hit the ball constantly, thank feck much less than he used to, the problem is the quality of his shooting. He is a terrier, work rate is top notch, he can be very useful in certain games, but come on he is not what we need going forward.
 
Said it time and time again. Once he’s replaced, he won’t be missed and many will realise what we’ve allowed ourselves to get accustomed to and accept. He’s so massively flawed for the role he’s so often deployed in.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Again, I'll say it, he's the most misunderstood player going.

He's not a 6 or an 8, he's a defensive 10, perfect for winning the ball high up the pitch, turning over the ball, intercepting and being a general nuisance. Like a 2023 Park but with less attacking ability.

He's role is unique, niche and nuanced. He's not a first XI player, he's a utility player for certain situations, scenarios and opponents.

When you judge him through this lens, he's a good player.
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Even if that's the case, who wants a player that niche?

If all you can do is win the ball high up the pitch you can't be at a top club.

But in anycase, I don’t think that's what he is or likely how he views himself. It's just the one part of his game that's top level.
 
Marwood said:
Even if that's the case, who wants a player that niche?

If all you can do is win the ball high up the pitch you can't be at a top club.

But in anycase, I don’t think that's what he is or likely how he views himself. It's just the one part of his game that's top level.
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Good lord.
 
Murder on Zidane's Floor said:
Good lord.
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There are so many players you could stick in the 10 spot and say "go win the ball"

In no way does that merit a spot at one of the worlds biggest clubs. You have to be more than that.

Amazed you can watch United all these years and think that's enough to warrant a spot.
 
Marwood said:
There are so many players you could stick in the 10 spot and say "go win the ball"

In no way does that merit a spot at one of the worlds biggest clubs. You have to be more than that.

Amazed you can watch United all these years and think that's enough to warrant a spot.
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In the squad*

The biggest teams can afford utility members in their larger squads because they have the biggest budgets.
 
meamth said:
Strength:
  1. He is a great counter presser.
  2. He got an elite engine/stamina
  3. Defensively decent
  4. He is quite agile
  5. Decent shooting
  6. Decent ball carrying
  7. Little bit of Brazilian flair sometimes (but most of the times brainfarts)
Flaws:
  1. Consistency issues: when he is good, he is damn good, but when he is playing bad, he is the worst.
  2. Spatial awareness is average
  3. Passing is average
  4. Low aerial ability
  5. Low composure
  6. Low composure leads to bad touch, although his technical ability is good.
Yeah he is not world class alright, but those qualities can be used correctly. With ETH, I'm sure he can contribute like he is currently doing now.
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If Fred himself wrote his resume, he wouldn't have the guts to mention all of those strengths.
He can press, he can run(without any positive outcome most of the times) and he has stamina, that's about it.
 
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