I agree with him as a squad player, never as a starting one. We need more than pure energy in that position.
Fred - £47m well spent
- Thread starter RashyForPM
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47 million pounds for someone that isn’t meant to solve our mid field problems? Behave. Every signing we make for any position is meant to solve our problems. The problem is we keep getting it wrong. United used to buy best in class. Buying the likes of Dan James and Fred isn’t going to help us challenge when city have a bench of Foden, Mahrez, Sterling, KDB, gundongan, Fernandinho most weeks.
Yes, but we haven't done that in a while, and Fred, with how things have turned out, wasn't a bad buy. He isn't on massive wages either, is he? Obviously it's far from perfect, but he isn't in the category of Dan James or Darmain.
I do not think United have ever focused on signing best in class. What United have done is sign young and upcoming talent who are ready to make the step up and become the best in class. Ferdinand, Rooney and Ronaldo are examples of this and to a lesser extent Nani, Vidic, Evra, Anderson, Bruno and Martial. We do occasionally buy ready made players. But only Van Persie and Pogba spring to mind who you could make a strong case that they were world leading in their respected positions at the time of purchase.
I think the problem is on his price tag. No-body expect Fred to make instant impact, from availability point of view he is much better than Bailly, the only difference is - what do you normally expect from 47m?
Martial is somewhere near that range, he was a hit but then most fan tend to drop into that disappointment category, for his lack of consistency.
If Fred is like Soucek kind of impact, even though not a DMF, most fan should be pleased. If Fred is as good as Xhaka, fulfilling the intended role although not spectacular, I would still be unhappy with his price tag. And Fred is better than Xhaka?
IMO Fred is like Fellaini, a useful player, but too expensive as a squad player, and not good enough to start regularly (except we have no choice)
Martial is somewhere near that range, he was a hit but then most fan tend to drop into that disappointment category, for his lack of consistency.
If Fred is like Soucek kind of impact, even though not a DMF, most fan should be pleased. If Fred is as good as Xhaka, fulfilling the intended role although not spectacular, I would still be unhappy with his price tag. And Fred is better than Xhaka?
IMO Fred is like Fellaini, a useful player, but too expensive as a squad player, and not good enough to start regularly (except we have no choice)
He plays almost every game so he definitely isn't a squad player.
He doesnt change. As per my last post on Roma 2nd goal. If you watch that, it epitomises what completely frustrates me about Fred. Had the energy to track back and just a quick look up and he’d have spotted the danger.
Are the coaching staff highlighting this. Given his energy levels and that he always gives 100% I cant see why he just wont scan around and anticipate.
Fred vs the rest:
Defensively:
Significantly higher in ball recoveries than other four.
Most tackle made, most block made & 2nd highest in interception only by 0.1 below Jorginho
Worst one in aerial duel (He's the shortest one after all)
About the same as Thiago, Tielemans & Jorginho in ground duel.
Possession:
4th best based on possession lost, unsuccessful short passes, & passing accuracy. Tielemans is actually worse than him in possession (Recent evidence that Zaha's goal 2 weeks ago came from his fault for losing the ball).
Progressive ball:
The lowest one with Jorginho in chances created & about the same in through balls attempted
His long pass accuracy is actually 3rd best, miles better than Jorginho & Tielemans. 3rd/4th in long passess attempted.
His forward pass is about the same as others.
Very good in takes on his opponent but doesn't make enough compared to Gundogan, Thiago & Tielemans.
Disciplinary/Conceded Fouls:
About in the middle while Thiago is off the chart the worst (people who watched Thiago this season knows this is true story).
Fred is not bad, if he has better first touch, better shooting technique and start scoring few more goals, people would appreciate him.
You judge and conclude it.
Defensively:
Significantly higher in ball recoveries than other four.
Most tackle made, most block made & 2nd highest in interception only by 0.1 below Jorginho
Worst one in aerial duel (He's the shortest one after all)
About the same as Thiago, Tielemans & Jorginho in ground duel.
Possession:
4th best based on possession lost, unsuccessful short passes, & passing accuracy. Tielemans is actually worse than him in possession (Recent evidence that Zaha's goal 2 weeks ago came from his fault for losing the ball).
Progressive ball:
The lowest one with Jorginho in chances created & about the same in through balls attempted
His long pass accuracy is actually 3rd best, miles better than Jorginho & Tielemans. 3rd/4th in long passess attempted.
His forward pass is about the same as others.
Very good in takes on his opponent but doesn't make enough compared to Gundogan, Thiago & Tielemans.
Disciplinary/Conceded Fouls:
About in the middle while Thiago is off the chart the worst (people who watched Thiago this season knows this is true story).
Fred is not bad, if he has better first touch, better shooting technique and start scoring few more goals, people would appreciate him.
You judge and conclude it.
he’s saying that he should be a squad player. You are right he’s been a first team player. I don’t agree that he should be, but he clearly is.
I like Fred and yeah I wish he was just an option we could bring in when we need him but he's probably our first choice CM right now.
Agree he could have done better but so could one or two others for the goal, I dont think blame lies mostly with him for that goal. Both fulls back in particular were poor for it. Unforgivable of AVB not running back.
Respect for detailed stats. I just don’t
He wasn’t solely at fault for the goal. I just see that Fred does what he does and in my humble opinion , could vastly improve by being more aware of play and stop just staring at the ball. Genuinely want him to get this. He is a powerhouse, rarely injured, commited. Dont care about stats or Transfer fee. Just want him to develop in weak areas. Ok, he’s never gonna be able to shoot
Seriously? We've bought some utter shit over the years. Fred doesn't even come close to that. He's a good player and right now we look markedly worse when he doesn't play. I know it's painful, and you'll go back to the standard simplification to his skillet as 'energy,' but it's truth.
Love his energy and enthusiasm but not the required standard to propel us to glory.Squad player at best.
He's pretty much better or equal at every important stat as Rice too and McT but no matter what you try man, people made their mind already and want something different. Obviously he can be upgraded in the future but he's the best we have in his role now and that's what this is all about. If we upgrade him we will upgrade on other three midfielders too as Matic, McTominay, VdB are way worse deeper now, although Donny can't be considered as a CM now but in the future I think he will have to adapt and slot in as Ander did as an 8 hybrid. Neither Pogba can play deeper alone with anyone else than Fred because he inbalances us too much. Scott does the job for now but clearly Matic is on last legs so he plays a lot to add more steel.Fred vs the rest:
Defensively:
Significantly higher in ball recoveries than other four.
Most tackle made, most block made & 2nd highest in interception only by 0.1 below Jorginho
Worst one in aerial duel (He's the shortest one after all)
About the same as Thiago, Tielemans & Jorginho in ground duel.
Possession:
4th best based on possession lost, unsuccessful short passes, & passing accuracy. Tielemans is actually worse than him in possession (Recent evidence that Zaha's goal 2 weeks ago came from his fault for losing the ball).
Progressive ball:
The lowest one with Jorginho in chances created & about the same in through balls attempted
His long pass accuracy is actually 3rd best, miles better than Jorginho & Tielemans. 3rd/4th in long passess attempted.
His forward pass is about the same as others.
Very good in takes on his opponent but doesn't make enough compared to Gundogan, Thiago & Tielemans.
Disciplinary/Conceded Fouls:
About in the middle while Thiago is off the chart the worst (people who watched Thiago this season knows this is true story).
Fred is not bad, if he has better first touch, better shooting technique and start scoring few more goals, people would appreciate him.
You judge and conclude it.
BTW some aother stats there are not included either, that's the Kms run, pressing and how quickly he recycles the ball, pretty much a mystery how he can keep his passing stats so decent tbh for a player who gets our team play in a higher tempo when on the pitch compared to some we know who it is..
It's unfair to compare his stats with Rice though. Rice plays in lesser team and holding midfielder not in hybrid role like Fred & McT. That's why I compare Fred's stats to the no 8 like Tielemans, Gundogan, Thiago while Jorginho seems to play in hybrid under Tuchel.
Squawka has no Kms run and pressing but the fact that Fred has very high ball recoveries among midfielders should give you an idea about his pressing ability and how much he runs to cover. I had done lot of comparison and I must say Fred has the highest ball recoveries among every midfielders I had compared. Except, Ndidi is the only one beats him (9.3).
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Fred vs the rest:
Defensively:
Significantly higher in ball recoveries than other four.
Most tackle made, most block made & 2nd highest in interception only by 0.1 below Jorginho
Worst one in aerial duel (He's the shortest one after all)
About the same as Thiago, Tielemans & Jorginho in ground duel.
Possession:
4th best based on possession lost, unsuccessful short passes, & passing accuracy. Tielemans is actually worse than him in possession (Recent evidence that Zaha's goal 2 weeks ago came from his fault for losing the ball).
Progressive ball:
The lowest one with Jorginho in chances created & about the same in through balls attempted
His long pass accuracy is actually 3rd best, miles better than Jorginho & Tielemans. 3rd/4th in long passess attempted.
His forward pass is about the same as others.
Very good in takes on his opponent but doesn't make enough compared to Gundogan, Thiago & Tielemans.
Disciplinary/Conceded Fouls:
About in the middle while Thiago is off the chart the worst (people who watched Thiago this season knows this is true story).
Fred is not bad, if he has better first touch, better shooting technique and start scoring few more goals, people would appreciate him.
You judge and conclude it.
A systematic approach in comparison but not comprehensive enough. Why leaving out Kante and Rice, the most quoted MF in the league.
Beside, Thiago is meant to be attacking MF but tasked by Klopp in a deep lying MF role, Kloop may still be right but current stats need more patience. Gundogan was meant to be a DMF or box2box MF I believe, and he has been instructed to be more aggressive, obviously paying off.
Fred is always tasked as a DMF, so his direct comparison should be Matic, Jorginho, Kante, Rice, pulling in Tielemans is incorrect.
IMO Fred is more like a downgraded Kante, relying on energy and stamina to cover his turf, but lacking the finesse, passing and shooting skill. He will probably going downhill before reaching 30, a bit like Rooney minus the skill and class.
Because Kante & Rice are DM while Fred isn’t DM. But here, just for you. And you can judge and conclude it yourself of what you think.
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Because Kante & Rice are DM while Fred isn’t DM. But here, just for you. And you can judge and conclude it yourself of what you think.
Fred is tasked to protect the back 4 and stay furthest behind compared with Pogba and McTom, still not a DM? How do you define DM?
In fact, from these stats, I would say Fred is better than Rice, because his passing is better, although aerial duel is inferior. Only Kante is better.
The heatmaps would suggest that Fred, Mctominay, Jorginho and Kante plays box-to-box. The way the two Chelsea midfielders play isn't much different from ours. Kante occupies the right sided area of the midfield while Jorginho the left. Both of them move vertical from box-to-box in their respective areas and are actively involved in attacking phases.
You said his post isn't comprehensive enough. But all you've provided is some half-baked opinion that Fred is a downgraded version of Kante who will start going downhill before 30. Talk about quality posting.
How is he tasked to protect the back four and stay further behind compared to McTom when both are sharing their role? McTominay roles is actually more similar to Kante while Fred is more on Jorginho/Kovacic. Thus, why I compared Fred to Jorginho. I compare him to Thiago, Tielemans, Gundogan because they are the midfield from our main competitors in the league. Thiago also played bit of similar role as Fred when partner with Wijnaldum.
Rice on the other hand is pure DM aka holding midfielder like Fabinho, Rodri, Ndidi and sometime Kante.
In fact, the stat also shows Fred has better passing than Kante as he makes more forward passes, long ball, and through ball than Kante. Why didn’t you mention that then? If we you mention it, you wouldn’t call Fred completely as downgraded Kante because Fred is better in his playmaking ability than Kante.
Both him and Mctominay are squad player material. Put together they're probably good enough to start but they take up to fricking places.
That's fair enough. He has room for improvement, I wouldnt argue with that.
given he’s been at the club 3 years and is 28 - I think it’s logical to suggest that he’s not going to improve much, and he’s not going to improve on those weaker areas of his game. He is what he is, and that’s not going to chance much.
I'm ok with that. Whilst I think he has room for improvement, same as the rest of our players, I'm happy enough with what he currently offers.
Because Kante & Rice are DM while Fred isn’t DM. But here, just for you. And you can judge and conclude it yourself of what you think.
These stays show that he compares well with peers. Pity it doesnt include amount of touches per game, I would like to see his involvement compared with these two as he usually has around 20% more touches then any other player on the field.
Very good squad player, we definitely need an upgrade on him going into next season to challenge for the title, would be nice to play him against mid-table teams and in domestic cups.
Not on his own he isn't.
Fred is better than Dante on the forward passing category, but doesn't make Fred a passing MF compared with Carrick, or the modern Jorginho. On the other hand, Kante is better than Fred in running, shooting, and probably many other area. OK Kante is more experienced and older, but I really can't see Fred reaching Kante's level. May be he doesn't need to reach that level, as every player can/should develop his own attribute.
Fred stats is about the same as Jorginho. Can’t believe someone thinks Jorginho’s playmaking is like Carrick.
Pardon my ignorant. If Fred stats is as good as Jorginho, and marginally better than Rice, then how come we have fans crying for better MF to replace Fred?
Well, because those fans want someone better than Jorginho?
No, they want Rice. And Grealish replacing ???, who happen to play on the left hand side. Why can't we find a player who is comfortable playing on the right hand side, whoever that may be, find a CB replacing Jones+Rojo, anyone can stand on his feet will do, potentially displacing Bailly and Lindelof if he can.
We keep on recruiting players of similar position (VDB included), and ignore the obvious holes.
Fred's main weakness is also his main strength. He can dribble the ball out of tight spaces in the center of midfield and launch a counter-attack. This can be a weakness as well, as Leicester found out in the FA Cup. By just swarming him and making him panic, he will end up losing the ball pretty often in dangerous positions.
Pretty much this. Fred is a solid squad man who’s being asked to do more right now than he’s capable of, but if we can ease up his responsibilities and use him against the Burnleys of the world he won’t be put into situations he’s just not well-suited for.
It doesn’t change the fact that his stats is about the same as Jorginho. You weren’t wrong when you admitted yourself that you are being ignorant and I can forgive you.
The problem is that it isn't a real strength. Fred can do many things well but half the time he doesn't. In the right game be can come out of a tough situation and play just the right pass to set us free other times he'll pass it like a drunk. He has little consistency to his game which makes it hard to believe he's 28. The one thing he's consistent with is effort, that's it. Everything else is hectic haywire frantic, sometimes good sometimes bad. We'll never get anywhere with a midfield with those principles.
Because Kante & Rice are DM while Fred isn’t DM. But here, just for you. And you can judge and conclude it yourself of what you think.
I think after a performance like yesterday, you realize that Fred IS NOT good enough to be in the starting 11 of a title winning squad. He is poor at playing out of the press, misplaced EASY passes are too commonplace and he doesn’t chip in with any goals.
squad player, fine. Great workrate, able defender, covers space well. Just not good enough for a first choice CM / CDM.
this title cracks me up- Status