Do we have studies on wether these dresses make it more difficult for girls to connect with their peers or not? If so, I don’t really see an issue with a ban like that.
France : proposal to ban wearing of the veil for minors and the Burkini
- Thread starter shamans
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Have turbans for Sikh boys been banned?
A study saying a piece of cloth makes it difficult to connect? You don’t need a study to determine how idiotic that assertion is dude.
"No religion in schools" is fine, but only up to and including the point where it means there is no teaching of religion in schools. To ban types of clothes is way too far.
I have no idea but I would think so. State schools are supposedly have no religious affiliations at all.
If parents want to send their children to a school with religious affiliations they are available.
The same as if you wanted to send to an non-state English speaking school.
To further complicate matters a Muslim leader in France said that the abaya is not a religious symbol but fashion.
Religion and the state have been separated since 1905.
What’s the logic of banning clothing relating to a specific religion? Unless there’s a school uniform who cares what kids wear?
You can't claim to embrace freedom of religion and be for banning religious clothing. Not sure if freedom of religion is something the French believe in though.
But this all got me thinking: how large of a following must a religion have before you can play the freedom card? Could I send my kid to school wearing a massive sombrero with peacock feathers on top and claim that it's a religious symbol?
But this all got me thinking: how large of a following must a religion have before you can play the freedom card? Could I send my kid to school wearing a massive sombrero with peacock feathers on top and claim that it's a religious symbol?
State and religion should be separate but what kids wear has nothing to do with that whatsoever. Just like a kid wearing Nike shoes doesn’t mean the school endorsed the company. And asking a Sikh to remove his turban would be absolutely inhuman - it’s an integral part of their identity.
You don’t think girls wearing garments that completely hide their faces (as an extreme example) won’t result in an exclusion from their peers? Because I think that’s quite likely. And if that’s the case, it’s an issue that needs to be tackled one way or another.
So with the less extreme garments, it’s somewhat tougher to judge. Which is why I would make any decisions dependent on whatever research we have conducted. Because I fully understand that this is a drastic step to undertake. But if we have real reasons to believe that girls might suffer due to clothing like this, it’s only right for the state to intervene.
As a personal example, where I live there are loads of mennonites. The boys are usually allowed to dress whatever way they want. The girls, however, are forced to grow their hair, wear it in a single braid and are only allowed to dress in long skirts, but never pants. I’ve had three girls like that in my class and never once talked to them. They were actively prohibited by their parents and brothers to engage with us and their clothes were part of that. We knew that talking to them would get us into danger with their families.
To me this is a form of child abuse. And a deeply sexist one. And if we get rules that eliminate at least part of the issue, I’m all for it.
Otherwise I wouldn’t give a shit. And I don’t care what adults wear. And I don’t care what religion makes them wear it. But kids are a different matter. And they have a right to participate in society, engage with their peers and so on. And it’s the states duty to ensure that they get to live accordingly.
Headscarves I can understand as it's clearly religious.
But the abaya is just a dress - a lot of girls/women wear fashionable versions of it. Does feel like they're specifically targeting those girls - saying we don't like your type of clothing.
I guess in state schools you have the right to dictate whatever e.g. as uniforms so it is what it is.
But the abaya is just a dress - a lot of girls/women wear fashionable versions of it. Does feel like they're specifically targeting those girls - saying we don't like your type of clothing.
I guess in state schools you have the right to dictate whatever e.g. as uniforms so it is what it is.
All religious clothing are banned but in this case there is no need to overthink it. It's a moronic decision by the Educcation ministry that no one asked for and that they can't justify.
There’s plenty of religious items / clothing that aren’t consequently banned under this premise though. Many of them mentioned already in this thread.
For me, I can understand the idea of banning a full veil. But, things like the headscarf only, and the dress (which is really particularly ridiculous), make no sense. If other children have an issue in connecting with the children who wear these items, it’s more a damning reflection on how society has been coded to view such people, rather than the item of clothing itself.
People should be free to express themselves as individuals and observe their religious or cultural practices free of discrimination, as long as it's not harming others.
If a Christian girl turned up in a nun's habit or a boy dressed as a monk they'd be turned away as well. It's not a fashion statement.
My grandsons attend a non-state catholic school - not because they are religious but because the school is very good.
I am not religious in anyway whatsoever and have no problem with people believing in what they like as long as it doesn't intrude on my life.
Why would they be turned away? Are they living in Afghanistan?
There is a no Christian equivalent of an abaya or sikh turban. So the point is moot.
Because it's religious clothing. Doesn't matter which religion.
Let's be fair, you could go one further and say family pressure to conform to religious practice is a problem in itself. I imagine there are quite a few women who feel pressured to wear these clothes when they don't actually want to.
That said, I largely agree with the majority here that freedom to observe religious practices is important to uphold.
That said, I largely agree with the majority here that freedom to observe religious practices is important to uphold.
I've just googled and yes the Sikh turban is covered in the ban. Total barking mad. Next the schools will be telling them to cut their hair and shave. Religious, innit.
Christian crosses cannot be worn. I am not a Christian or of any religion. All religious items are banned.
Is an abaya a religious symbol or not ? Muslims seem divided.
Makes sense to ban them then instead of trying to understand and create a tolerant and accepting society to other peoples beliefs.
Are you against any bans of clothing in schools or just particular ones?
What's total barking mad? Dictating how people should dress?
Bingo. Great lesson for children in general.
Can't France just learn from the UK who seem decades and decades ahead? Barring the Brexit nuts.
No they just go in non-religious clothing. If they want to wear religious clothing at school, go to a non-state school that allows it.
So divide them up. Nice.
Is it also barking mad if a religion dictated how people should dress? Or does that only apply to governments
The question is why? What is the end purpose of it? Deny existence of religious symbols??
That’s not a good idea, I think. Personally I believe these kinds of schools shouldn’t even be allowed. They are religious indoctrination and often have dubious academic standards, especially in regards to science. Every child should receive the same science based education.
What qualifies as religious?
For what it's worth I think both sides in this debate are equally ridiculousFeck me! You really typed that.
To repeat, since 1905, 118 years ago, the state and religion are separated.
I remember being at school many years ago in the UK. The Protestants had to sit through Church services or assemblies, forced to sing hymns, say prayers which half the kids didn't believe in or want to do.
The catholics were shoved off into some classroom or other. One boy was Jewish out of the whole school and had to sit in another classroom on his own.
So forward looking.
Great
What's barking mad is pretending that any of these children had a choice in what their 'beliefs' are.
If I've learned anything from this thread, it's who the European Alt Right posters are.
The abaya doesn't hide the face. It's literally just a very loose onesie that covers a person. I've grown up in the UK and seen women wear it and I don't think they've, in any shape or form, found it harder to make a connection. It's almost as if the clothes you wear have no bearing on a connection being made, and the person wearing it does.
The other thing is - it's a great way to teach inclusivity and tolerance if kids are going to school and seeing people from all walks of life in their cultural or religious garms. I know kids I went to school with learnt a great deal more from me actually fasting rather than reading about it in a book or in a classroom.
Anywho - this is just another step in France's islamaphobic stance - the thread is littered with it.
If you want to believe in or wear religious things it is done outside of school.
I don't see any reason to ban 'religious' clothing from schools such as turbans or veils or in this case the dress.
Again, if connecting with people who wear religious clothing at schools is a problem for children then that shows me more that society has failed to create an accepting and tolerant space where they're able to be open and understanding about differences.