"Form is temporary, class is permanent"

But the lines are blurred here, *** on one hand you are saying maybe around ten years and another guy ushers the masters into his interpretation.

Indeed it is down to interpretation. In my opinion class can be effected by things outside a players control. Brolin became a fat-feck, Lentini was seriously injured, their class dwindled for different reasons, and the phrase can't be applied to them in the same way it can to a guy like Maradonna, who came on and played for Boca last month after abuse and rehab.

My gripe, is simply that the phrase is rather lazy and clumsy and too general.
 
If the word permanent always meant 'eternal', then we would be pretty limited in our use of it. The fact is that it's used to mean a long period of time quite often and this is a normal usage of it.
 
Danny_ said:
If the word permanent always meant 'eternal', then we would be pretty limited in our use of it. The fact is that it's used to mean a long period of time quite often and this is a normal usage of it.
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Even allowing for using "permanent" wrongly, it's still clearly false as a general principle. Often class isn't particularly long-lived. One injury, crisis of confidence or unwise move can see to that.
 
Dowders_Jnr said:
But the lines are blurred here, *** on one hand you are saying maybe around ten years and another guy ushers the masters into his interpretation.

Indeed it is down to interpretation. In my opinion class can be effected by things outside a players control. Brolin became a fat-feck, Lentini was seriously injured, their class dwindled for different reasons, and the phrase can't be applied to them in the same way it can to a guy like Maradonna, who came on and played for Boca last month after abuse and rehab.

My gripe, is simply that the phrase is rather lazy and clumsy and too general.
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I guess class is usually used to describe how limited or unlimited you are in what you can do with the ball for most positions. If you can or have the potential to do something special that most other players can't do, that's class. So players playing in the masters like Beardsley may still have all the tricks but not the legs anymore. They still have class. They just aren't good players anymore due to their age.
 
Dowders_Jnr said:
Yeah, but he is an individual example. There can be no general rule.
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I doubt players ever lose their ability to pass the ball - for example, Jan Molby.
 
Danny_ said:
Dalglish, Souness, Hansen, Barnes, Beardsley etc. Ferguson would probably have sold his grandmother to have any of those players in his United team.
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I was talking about class and not if they were good footballers. In fact were any of those scousers?
 
Form is current while class is a potentially longer term conditon of indeterminate definition.
 
Plechazunga said:
He'll be crap at it when he's in a wheelchair, and crapper still when he's dead
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Words don't have absolute meanings. They are just labels to describe something and same label describes many different things depending on the context in which we are making the description.

If language was that inflexible that (to used a linguistic term), each signified demand a separate and unique signifier, our alphabet would probably be a lot longer and what we could say and the ease of expressing it would probably be greatly reduced.
 
Danny_ said:
Words don't have absolute meanings. They are just labels to describe something and same label describes many different things depending on the context in which we are making the description.

If language was that inflexible that (to used a linguistic term), each signified demand a separate and unique signifier, our alphabet would probably be a lot longer and what we could say and the ease of expressing it would probably be greatly reduced.
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OK Saussure, what about when it's applied to teams? Is it true of Aston Villa? Preston North End?
 
Cockbiscuit is fairly absolute. Only 2 meanings that I can think of and one is so disgusting that only public schoolboys would experince it.

Class is more debatable.

In a fairly definite sort of a way.

Maybe.
 
Plechazunga said:
OK Saussure, what about when it's applied to teams? Is it true of Aston Villa? Preston North End?
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You mean were they class? I'd say no. However Liverpool in the 80's were class and somebody at the start of that decade would be correct in reminding Liverpool that class is permanent, form is temporary if the the team was going through a blip. The same goes for your United team in the 90's. You might have lost to NewCastle 5-0 once but that didn't mean that you weren't class. You just had an off-day and proved that you were class over the span of a decade.
 
Wibble said:
Cockbiscuit is fairly absolute. Only 2 meanings that I can think of and one is so disgusting that only public schoolboys would experince it.

Class is more debatable.

In a fairly definite sort of a way.

Maybe.
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A farmer if he started feeding his cocks biscuits for some bizarre reason might coin the term cockbiscuit for the food he gave them. He's perfectly entitled to use that word if he wants and it would be right to include it in the dictionary as another meaning of the word if this usage became widespread.
 
Why is Plech always bollocking the statements he has trouble comprehending? Firstly it was the term "World Class", in his opinion a Football myth that was invented at about the same time as the Internet. Then there was the phase "Technical Ability" again another great myth only used by muppets and Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime, and now it's the phrase "Form is temporary, Class in Permanent" which is used in reference to a currently practicing player who despite being out of form is a class player, and was never meant to describe a player who's 40 odd years into retirement.

Is there a bigger anally-retentive cnut on this board?
 
Danny_ said:
A farmer if he started feeding his cocks biscuits for some bizarre reason might coin the term cockbiscuit for the food he gave them. He's perfectly entitled to use that word if he wants and it would be right to include it in the dictionary as another meaning of the word if this usage became widespread.
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That is Cock Biscuit TM, the less popular "sister" product of hen Biscuit TM by Pangolin Animal Feed Ltd.

Cockbiscuit is a single word. Just like Suagows.
 
The Hairdryer said:
Why is Plech always bollocking the statements he has trouble comprehending? Firstly it was the term "World Class", in his opinion a Football myth that was invented at about the same time as the Internet. Then there was the phase "Technical Ability" again another great myth only used by muppets and Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime, and now it's the phrase "Form is temporary, Class in Permanent" which is used in reference to a currently practicing player who despite being out of form is a class player, and was never meant to describe a player who's 40 odd years into retirement.

Is there a bigger anally-retentive cnut on this board?
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I can think of quite a few but it would probably be simpler to accept that all football pundits, players and managers speak a language all of their own based on English and cliche.

Football fans then seem to adopt this bizarre form of speach when talking about football and then revert to "normal" when talking about everything else.

Perhaps a form of mass hysteria?

Eton Schoolmater: I say Ponsomby minor. Are you alright? You took a big fall there?
Ponsomby: Top hole sir. Just a minor bingle.
Eton Schoolmaster: Will you be alright to play for the school football team on Saturday.
Ponsomby: Just tweaked me hammy guvnor.
Eton Schoolmaster: Are you alright Ponsomby?
Ponsomby: Suagows. The boy done good.
Eton Schoolmaster: Matron.
 
alonso767 said:
how about, "you cant have your cake and eat it too"

this one goes out to spoony.
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You can have eaten your cake ans still have it might be more accurate but less aesthetically pleasing.

Suagows
 
Wibble said:
That is Cock Biscuit TM, the less popular "sister" product of hen Biscuit TM by Pangolin Animal Feed Ltd.

Cockbiscuit is a single word. Just like Suagows.
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Nope, the farmer coined the word 'cockbiscuit' so he's entitled to make it one word if he wants.
 
The Hairdryer said:
Is there a bigger anally-retentive cnut on this board?
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When it comes to the term 'world class' - me!

People rush to say that this player is w.c. and that player isn't, but I've yet to see a definition of the phrase itself. Eg 'Premiership class': although widely open to argument as to which players fit the bill - the term itself simply means good enough to play in the Premiership.

World class..?
 
Form is temporary, unless you're a good player, in which case bad form is temporary
 
What a silly construction. Of course it is true. Class is permanent but the body gets older and older. But let it be, this whole thread is just silly.
 
noodlehair said:
Form is temporary, unless you're a good player, in which case bad form is temporary
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Form is temporary, and in good players is evidence of class, which has a level of longevity associated with it that makes it more significant than temporary, but less than permanent.
 
The Hairdryer said:
Why is Plech always bollocking the statements he has trouble comprehending? Firstly it was the term "World Class", in his opinion a Football myth that was invented at about the same time as the Internet. Then there was the phase "Technical Ability" again another great myth only used by muppets and Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime, and now it's the phrase "Form is temporary, Class in Permanent" which is used in reference to a currently practicing player who despite being out of form is a class player, and was never meant to describe a player who's 40 odd years into retirement.

Is there a bigger anally-retentive cnut on this board?
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Kinell Hairdryer, what's got your goat?

There are 2 different issues here, which I don't think I'm being unreasonable about

With "World Class" and "Technical Ability", it's clear from reading any of the threads they crop up in that hardly any two posters mean the same thing by them. "World Class" is used to mean a hundred different things on a continuum from "could play for his country" to "Maradona, Pele, Best and no-one else". "Technical Ability" for some means pure dribbling, for others all-round ability at all parts of the game, for others perhaps skills learned by practice as opposed to god-given, etc. Everyone babbles on as if we're in agreement about the basic terms, but we're not, which makes it all a bit pointless, which I have mentioned from time to time cos it's annoying.

"Form is temporary, class is permanent" is different. It's a cliche that some people have heard pundits say and so every now and again bring up as a conversation-stopper, as if it's a self-evident truth, when it isn't. A player or team having "class" in the past is no guarantee that they will in the future. It's lazy and meaningless.

And I don't mean to be an anally-retentive cnut, but I'm not sure a cnut can actually retain anything anally.
 
Plechazunga said:
Obviously not fecking true

Bobby Charlton would no longer look classy in a top-level football match

Anyone thinking of using that rubbish quote again should just not do
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What the hell are you talking about?

Sir Bobby still oozes class, obviously he would be crap on the pitch but why does that mean he lacks class all of a sudden?
 
Quite

And many, many more

Obviously my point about Dalglish etc is hyperbole, but there's an element of truth to it...all players decline eventually unless they retire at the top like Shmikes. While they're declining, we're apparently not allowed to comment on this, due to the inviolable law that "Class is permanent".

This has been said about Scholesy now for 3 seasons, even though he's clearly not going to be quite as good again as he once was.
 
Plechazunga said:
Quite

And many, many more

Obviously my point about Dalglish etc is hyperbole, but there's an element of truth to it...all players decline eventually unless they retire at the top like Shmikes. While they're declining, we're apparently not allowed to comment on this, due to the inviolable law that "Class is permanent".

This has been said about Scholesy now for 3 seasons, even though he's clearly not going to be quite as good again as he once was.
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You don't get it do you, Plech.

It's when a class player loses his form. Like if Rooney's shite over the next 5 games - they'll say, 'form is temp, class is permanent'.

I could also say it about you. Your last few threads have been utter tripe.
 
Plechazunga said:
Kinell Hairdryer, what's got your goat?

There are 2 different issues here, which I don't think I'm being unreasonable about

With "World Class" and "Technical Ability", it's clear from reading any of the threads they crop up in that hardly any two posters mean the same thing by them. "World Class" is used to mean a hundred different things on a continuum from "could play for his country" to "Maradona, Pele, Best and no-one else". "Technical Ability" for some means pure dribbling, for others all-round ability at all parts of the game, for others perhaps skills learned by practice as opposed to god-given, etc. Everyone babbles on as if we're in agreement about the basic terms, but we're not, which makes it all a bit pointless, which I have mentioned from time to time cos it's annoying.

"Form is temporary, class is permanent" is different. It's a cliche that some people have heard pundits say and so every now and again bring up as a conversation-stopper, as if it's a self-evident truth, when it isn't. A player or team having "class" in the past is no guarantee that they will in the future. It's lazy and meaningless.

And I don't mean to be an anally-retentive cnut, but I'm not sure a cnut can actually retain anything anally.
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\

I apologise for my outburst, I was in a bad mood this morning, and while I admit the term World-Class causes some confusion (it really shouldn't though) I don't know how on the earth the term Technical Ability does. Player’s Technical Ability is basically how he recieves and keeps possession of the ball. How he positions his body to receive a ball, his first touch, how he moves with it, and how he keeps the ball in an area close to his body where he's always in a position to pass or evade a player. The players with great Technical Ability are the ones that appear to have a lot of time on the ball, especially in tight areas of the pitch. Someone like Scholes barely breaks into a trot, yet he's always got space, it with Zizou. Anyone who's ever played in Central Midfield at any level can understand how congested it gets in there and how little time you have to do anything. Most mere mortals couldn't even trap the ball and get their head up before being creamed by a player at Premiership Level.

As for the term Class is permanent, Form is temporary. It's true to an extent. You see it every weekend against us. There's always some clown who plays Shite every other week and then pulls out a blinder against us. They're not a classy player; they've just found some form.

Some goes the other way. If someone like Rooney has a shite game or a run of games, then he's out of form; he's still a classy player though. Of course players are eventually going to get old and not be the same player they were an X amount of years ago, that's a fact of life, as I said the term was never meant to describe a player 40 years into retirement. :smirk:
 
The Hairdryer said:
\

I apologise for my outburst, I was in a bad mood this morning, and while I admit the term World-Class causes some confusion (it really shouldn't though) I don't know how on the earth the term Technical Ability does. Player’s Technical Ability is basically how he recieves and keeps possession of the ball. How he positions his body to receive a ball, his first touch, how he moves with it, and how he keeps the ball in an area close to his body where he's always in a position to pass or evade a player. The players with great Technical Ability are the ones that appear to have a lot of time on the ball, especially in tight areas of the pitch. Someone like Scholes barely breaks into a trot, yet he's always got space, it with Zizou. Anyone who's ever played in Central Midfield at any level can understand how congested it gets in there and how little time you have to do anything. Most mere mortals couldn't even trap the ball and get their head up before being creamed by a player at Premiership Level.
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That's okay

This is a typical example though. To you, it's just OBVIOUS that "technical ability" refers to close control. To me, it's not at all. When Rooney spanks a volley swerving in from thirty yards, that's technical ability for me. Same with Silvestre's long crossfield passes.

Others go beyond your more restrictive definition, and use it just to mean dribbling tricks.

There is no general agreement on the term. This was clear from the thread the other day, though I'd noticed it a bit before. We had two or three pages of long-winded disagreements, and I sat there thinking, hang on, everyone's talking about something different...which makes it a colossal waste of time.

I'm not saying for every discussion we should spend half an hour defining our terms. But some phrases, like "world class", "technical" and also now it's come up again, "big club", are used particularly widely, in some cases actually contradictorily.

As for the term Class is permanent, Form is temporary. It's true to an extent. You see it every weekend against us. There's always some clown who plays Shite every other week and then pulls out a blinder against us. They're not a classy player; they've just found some form.

Some goes the other way. If someone like Rooney has a shite game or a run of games, then he's out of form; he's still a classy player though. Of course players are eventually going to get old and not be the same player they were an X amount of years ago, that's a fact of life, as I said the term was never meant to describe a player 40 years into retirement. :smirk:
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At no point have I claimed there was no such thing as a player being in or out of good form. What I'm disputing is the idea that because a player has "class", that "class" will be with him for the rest of his career. It's just not true. Look at United players like Birtles, Webb, even Bryan Robson. Birtles came to United and somehow was never the same player. Webb got injured, and maybe couldn't take the big stage, and his class was no longer apparent. Robbo was an incredible player, but at the end of his career he didn't have a degree of "class" in any way comparable. He basically just kicked people a lot. You admit this point yourself.

It sounds like i'm just being facetious, but I'm not, mainly anyway. People trot it out all the time as if it's a self-evident truth, when it's clearly false. Take the Scholes situation. Anyone with a bit of perspective can see he's not quite the player he was. It's inevitably going to happen some time as you yourself admit. But as soon as anyone mentions this, someone comes along with the "class is permanent" crap. Well how old/knackered/somehow not himself does a player have to be before we're allowed to say that actually, his class has gone through the "permanent" phase and is now, in fact was always, temporary?

It's even sillier with clubs. In what way does having "class" now guarantee its permanence. It didn't for Blackpool, or Preston or Wolves...maybe Forest will never again be a club with great "class"...
 
Plechazunga said:
This is a typical example though. To you, it's just OBVIOUS that "technical ability" refers to close control. To me, it's not at all. When Rooney spanks a volley swerving in from thirty yards, that's technical ability for me. Same with Silvestre's long crossfield passes.
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:nono: I'm not asking you what it is. I'm telling you. What I stated is the criteria that the specific UEFA and FIFA Study Groups, and everyone I've ever been involved with, in Youth Development, base "Technical Ability" on.

It's not open for debate, that's how it is.

Some players are Ihni binni dimi diniwiny anitaime of players, can't control a ball yet they can still whack the shit out of ball from 40 yards. Passing and shooting is part of players Technique but not exclusively defined by "Techical Ability" although some players like Paul Scholes and Wayne Rooney have very good shooting skills which is aided by their Technical Ability, they make space for themselves in games to have the shot and after controlling it or having a touch the ball is exactly where it needs to be when they strike it.
 
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