Foreign secretary advice to LGBT fans.... Be respectful

Mas Risky said:
What perplexes me about the recent campaign for LGBT rights in world football is why it is being voiced more by straight male players and club executives. What Colin Kaepernick did with his kneeling campaign to voice injustice against black people felt more relevant because he had a moral basis for his views.
That is the reason why for people in non-Western countries, the issue of LGBT at the World Cup feels forced. Racism is still a problem in football but never seems to be a major issue at the World Cup, a stage where players from different nations come together. Indeed, human rights should not be a political issue, but it can become a political issue when several countries with certain geopolitical powers want to dictate which issue suits them best.
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One can be straight & feel morally repulsed at anti-LGBTQ behavior.

I posit that the defense of cultures & customs of backward countries feel extremely forced, almost manufactured outrage.

Racism is still a scourge in world football & the world in general, why not elevate another human rights violation to the same exposure level to create conversations & agitate for change?

Human rights issue will always be political as it's the political arena where change is ultimately created.

It is a far wider concern than just 'several countries.'
 
The Boy said:
But they're not profiting from Qatar hosting the World Cup, they're doing their jobs they'd be at the World Cup whether it was in the UK, Qatar or the North Pole and if it wasn't the World Cup they'd be in studios talking about the Premiership etc.

They're speaking up while there which is a good thing surely. I can not fathom why you would blame them with no mention of Beckham, Morgan Freeman, BTS etc these are people profiting specifically from Qatar hosting the World Cup and as you say have no fiscal need to be there.

As for your last sentence, there was no attempt at one-upmanship going on at all, I didn't realise upset was offensive. For context, I am extremely upset about the arm band, about the LGBTQ laws in Qatar, about homophobia and I'm very glad that the BBC and ITV are still talking about it.
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They're obviously profiting from it one way or the other and it is okay as far as I'm concerned
 
This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

 
2cents said:
This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

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What is he trying to say here? I read it as saying that drawing attention to the bigoted behaviour against certain groups is disliked by said bigots?
 
2cents said:
This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

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I don't know if this guy is just extremely poor at making the argument or if the argument isn't a particularly strong one.

Activism creating targets is an issue raised in many fights for civil justice. The battle for American Civil Rights and the suffragettes both had the charge leveled against them.

Western cultural imperial should be recognised. Condescension exists and should be addressed. Activism that puts vulnerable individuals, or groups at risks should be carefully considered.

However I haven't seen a good argument yet. For example:
Case in point - Hamed Sinno, possibly the most famous openly gay Arab who lives in the Arab world, and his enormously popular band "Mashrou' Leila" have... disbanded the band.
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it is not a case in point and has nothing to do with the point about Western activism he is scrambling for. It is a misrepresentation of the story he linked to.
 
2cents said:
This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

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I did hear about that a bit before the WC too, that some LGBT people in the region were fearing the backlash that might come from 'western' nations pointing out the issues.

But for a fan like me/us, what's the suggested alternative? Do we just watch the WC as if nothing is wrong?
 
The thing is who's to blame for the backlash? Homophobes that are protested against and perpetrate violence, or the ones protesting homophobia?
 
SilentWitness said:
They weren't stopped. They could have still done something but chose not to.
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They were threatened by the governing body with vague sanctions that (according to reports) could range anywhere from a yellow card suspensions/ points deductions (if you can tell me exactly what punishment the players cowered away from then I'm all ears).

Obviously every participating FA decided against using the armband after these threats while the Germans supported their players and organized a (IMO) better protest than the Armband is/was to begin with.

SilentWitness said:
Why would they be commended? They'd be commended if they followed through with their words. It's not commendable to say you're for and support a cause and then drop that cause the moment it gets tough (not even) for you.

Are the players feelings clear? How can they be when they said they care about something but then remove their support for it?
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Well their words and actions up to this point (wearing the armband and vocally supporting the LGBT community) would suggest to me that they have made their feelings clear?

https://www.thisisanfield.com/wp-content/uploads/P181202-045-Liverpool_Everton-e1543769189272.jpg

https://static.independent.co.uk/2021/06/29/18/SEI85237890.jpg?width=1200

They want to do it (which is better than people who choose to do nothing) but they are being forced (just like the Germans ) to abandon it and the only difference so far has been that they haven't been creative enough yet to stage a different protest (which I think will happen personally).


SilentWitness said:
As has been said multiple times, members of the LGBTQ+ community, not only in Qatar but around the world have to live every single days in societies which ostracize them.
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Well absolutely nobody is denying that, in fact I think it's absolutely disgraceful that FIFA, the FA and Players from countries allegedly support the LGBT+ community chose to have the tournament/ participate in Qatar.

I can't be sure but I would say that most from the LGBT+ community would view the Armband as a token gesture from the participating FAs as a way to appease their fans (who probably are more supportive of LGBT+ issues than countries who didn't participate) and are more upset by their Nations attendence than them folding under the threat of sanctions from the governing body of the competition.

SilentWitness said:
The England and Dutch players/managers in their comments said ok, we will shut up and move on with football, Germany didn't.
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Yes that's what's happened so far but the German FA had more time to formulate their response than the English and Dutch and once again (IMO at least) the hierarchy of the German FA led with/supported their players while the English and Dutch have not (as far as I can tell).

So IMO players who at least tried to do something (English , Dutch , Danish etc) are better than those who didn't (pretty much every other FA) try to do anything at all (even if they are worse than the Germans) and it's better to have those guys trying and failing (so far) and generating conversation and controversy than just having a bunch of countries who try and tow the party line.

Isn't that the exact argument made for the pundits who are there right now? Better to have people who are getting paid to be there shining a light on the issues than people like John Fashanu saying "Respect their Customs" and generating no controversy?

The threat of wearing the armband and it being denied has generated (due to FIFAs threat of sanctions) more exposure than the armband alone ever could IMO.
 
sullydnl said:
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That's an incredibly stupid thing to say by Eden, even if he was directly asked about it. Should have said it's none of my business and left it. Now he's made a very loud political statement. Fool.
 
If I understood things right, those seven nations also felt they shouldn't let FIFA divide them, it was either all of them wearing the armband, or none. So it was not an individual decision, and we should take that into account when judging the situation.
 
Dumbstar said:
That's an incredibly stupid thing to say by Eden, even if he was directly asked about it. Should have said it's none of my business and left it. Now he's made a very loud political statement. Fool.
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For balance:

 
Doracle said:
What is he trying to say here? I read it as saying that drawing attention to the bigoted behaviour against certain groups is disliked by said bigots?
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You don't need to agree. But he is making an observation.

 
Pintu said:
You don't need to agree. But he is making an observation.

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An account with 95 followers, who has been tweeting non stop for months about everything and anything that he can possibly use. A 15 year old boy murdered in Austrialia? That means it's hypocritical to talk about human rights in Qatar.
 
Rhyme Animal said:
Caring about gay people / women / being oppressed and / or hurt for being themselves is ‘Western racism’…

That is a dangerous take, that seems itself, racist and leaning toward extremism.
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Except that's not what he is saying... The flag is starting to get dissociated from the LGBT community and linked to Western racism.. They don't believe that football association in the West care about gay people.
 
Good lord the twittersphere is painful on these topics. Someone raising Poland and Hungary not having great LGBT records, as if they’re leading the rainbow charge against Qatar.
 
Pintu said:
You don't need to agree. But he is making an observation.

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“ A big part of this is a reaction to really insular, short-sighted, hamfisted, extremely white Western activism on the issue.”

This sounds like an opinion, rather than an observation. What does “extremely white” mean in this context? Why is wearing a rainbow armband short-sighted and hamfisted? It’s inoffensive surely?

Hasn’t the real negative coverage been caused by the hamfisted and extremely poorly judged actions of FIFA/Qatar in preventing the captains from making a small gesture towards equality and refusing entry to people wearing rainbow items in the stadiums?
 
Ah, yes. A symbol of support for LGBT+ rights (and in a broader sense universal human rights) is actually a symbol of racism.

We can now see the real reason why that guy in the rainbow t-shirt was detained by stadium security: he was a flaming racist.

How very convenient.
 
2cents said:
This thread deserves serious consideration I think. El-Baghdadi is someone worth listening to on such matters:

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I read the thread and as far as I can tell he provides no evidence for what he's claiming and no real point to his argument. Maybe I'm not understanding the argument correctly?
 
maniak said:
But I assume you recognize the lgbt community in qatar is treated poorly, right?

In that sense, if you opt for "well, if this... and if that..." and don't take a strong stance in favor of protecting this community, then you are indirectly creating the conditions for that situation to prolong itself.

Most people aren't really angry with rainbow shirts being allowed in stadiums, that's just a detail that shows the ridiculousness of the whole thing. The real issue is how ordinary gay qataris are treated, not to mention women and migrants.
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I've not defended Qatar but the truth is I don't know what day to day life is like there. I don't know how the LGBT community is treated daily. Yes I've seen discussions like this and recently the Twitter etc stories of individuals.

Prior to the WC Qatar was pretty much a non entity for most. Including myself.

Let me explain this. Let's say we all accept Qatar and the LGBT situation is exactly as described by some. So Qatar is evil. What is obvious to me is that no one cared and for me still don't. It's just a case of bandwagons, virtue signalling and ultimately clinging to a stick to beat them with over what is essentially a list of things people went through. Corruption being the first then workers them women and finally LGBTQ.
 
Roane said:
Let me explain this. Let's say we all accept Qatar and the LGBT situation is exactly as described by some. So Qatar is evil. What is obvious to me is that no one cared and for me still don't. It's just a case of bandwagons, virtue signalling and ultimately clinging to a stick to beat them with over what is essentially a list of things people went through. Corruption being the first then workers them women and finally LGBTQ.
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:rolleyes:
 
Doracle said:
What is he trying to say here? I read it as saying that drawing attention to the bigoted behaviour against certain groups is disliked by said bigots?
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He's saying that people in the West campaigning for gay rights in Qatar are actually making things worse for the LGBT community in the region

Heard similar from other sources
 
Rood said:
He's saying that people in the West campaigning for gay rights in Qatar are actually making things worse for the LGBT community in the region

Heard similar from other sources
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Isn't that like an abused child placating the abuser so it doesn't get worse?
 
moses said:
Isn't that like an abused child placating the abuser so it doesn't get worse?
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Maybe

Or maybe there is no abuse as the LGBT community there choose to stay underground so are left alone - but now this kind of spotlight makes them worried about being outed which makes problems more likely

I heard this idea that the Qatari gay community don't want to see rainbow flags, tshirts etc on this podcast - worth a listen:
 
Rood said:
Maybe

Or maybe there is no abuse as the LGBT community there choose to stay underground so are left alone - but now this kind of spotlight makes them worried about being outed which makes problems more likely

I heard this idea that the Qatari gay community don't want to see rainbow flags, tshirts etc on this podcast - worth a listen:
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Absolutely, and it's a danger if we just waltz in to any delicate situation, in a house or a foreign country, but none of this is saying there isn't a problem, just this is not the way to deal. Which is why soft pressure like saying you're not having the world cup with these laws in place is the way to go.

Expecting people who care once they are aware to stfu is unreasonable.

A wider selection of those guardian podcasts proves to be quite critical of the whole thing..
 
moses said:
Absolutely, and it's a danger if we just waltz in to any delicate situation, in a house or a foreign country, but none of this is saying there isn't a problem, just this is not the way to deal. Which is why soft pressure like saying you're not having the world cup with these laws in place is the way to go.

Expecting people who care once they are aware to stfu is unreasonable.

A wider selection of those guardian podcasts proves to be quite critical of the whole thing..
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Yes exactly, it's a question of the right way to deal with the problems

But negative political reaction in the media to this football tournament is overdone in my opinion and the message here is that this will not help the cause

Of course there is criticism in the Football Weekly podcasts but there is a range of opinions and they go more in depth than superficial reporting elsewhere - then you form your own opinion based on the facts
 
Rood said:
Maybe

Or maybe there is no abuse as the LGBT community there choose to stay underground so are left alone - but now this kind of spotlight makes them worried about being outed which makes problems more likely

I heard this idea that the Qatari gay community don't want to see rainbow flags, tshirts etc on this podcast - worth a listen:
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https://www.hrw.org/news/2022/10/24/qatar-security-forces-arrest-abuse-lgbt-people

A transgender Qatari woman said that after security forces arrested her on the street in Doha, Preventive Security officers accused her of “imitating women” because of her gender expression. In the police car, they beat her until her lips and nose were bleeding and kicked her in the stomach, she said. “You gays are immoral, so we will be the same to you,” she said one officer told her.
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“I saw many other LGBT people detained there: two Moroccan lesbians, four Filipino gay men, and one Nepalese gay man,” she said. “I was detained for three weeks without charge, and officers repeatedly sexually harassed me. Part of the release requirement was attending sessions with a psychologist who ‘would make me a man again.’”
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Another Qatari transgender woman said she was arrested in public by Preventive Security Department forces because she was wearing makeup. “They gave me hand wipes and made me wipe the makeup off my face,” she said. “They used the makeup-stained wipes as evidence against me and took a picture of me with the wipes in my hand. They also shaved my hair.” Security forces made her sign a pledge that she would not wear makeup again as a condition for her release, she said.
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A Qatari bisexual woman said: “[Preventive Security officers] beat me until I lost consciousness several times. An officer took me blindfolded by car to another place that felt like a private home from the inside and forced me to watch restrained people getting beaten as an intimidation tactic.”
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A Qatari transgender woman, arrested by Preventive Security in public in Doha, said: “They [Preventive Security] are a mafia. They detained me twice, once for two months in a solitary cell underground, and once for six weeks. They beat me every day and shaved my hair. They also made me take off my shirt and took a picture of my breasts. I suffered from depression because of my detention. I still have nightmares to this day, and I’m terrified of being in public.”
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In all cases, LGBT detainees said, Preventive Security forces forced them to unlock their phones and took screenshots of private pictures and chats from their devices, as well as contact information of other LGBT people.

A Qatari gay man who has experienced government repression, including arbitrary arrest, said that security forces surveilled and arrested him based on his online activity.

All those interviewed provided strikingly similar accounts. The repressive climate around free expression in Qatar, including around the rights of LGBT people, has made many people who may have experienced mistreatment afraid to be interviewed because of the risk of retaliation, Human Rights Watch said.
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Abizzz said:
The thing is who's to blame for the backlash? Homophobes that are protested against and perpetrate violence, or the ones protesting homophobia?
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Indeed. It was an attempt to deflect attention from the problem by blaming those who are shining a light on it.
 
Raoul said:
Indeed. It was an attempt to deflect attention from the problem by blaming those who are shining a light on it.
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To be fair I've seen you make a similar argument in the Israel/Palestine thread: calling the situation apartheid doesn't do anything to aid the situation and may make things worse.
 
adexkola said:
To be fair I've seen you make a similar argument in the Israel/Palestine thread: calling the situation apartheid doesn't do anything to aid the situation and may make things worse.
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My point there is specific to that situation where protests have clearly not worked and never will because of the power structure of the Israeli-US relationship. This is clearly not remotely in that category since the Qataris have already capitulated and will continue to do so to avoid further embarrassment during the tournament
 
Rood said:
But negative political reaction in the media to this football tournament is overdone in my opinion and the message here is that this will not help the cause
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Personally I'm not sure you can call a media overreaction to human rights issues while they are still human rights issues. Isn't the media's job to highlight issues so we can fix them?

What's your take, that they've said enough, now stop banging on about it?

The idea that this highlighting human rights abuses makes things worse is the one media take you post here because it's the one you prefer, because it stops the negativity. It's grimly like many other scared oppressed peoples. Black people were terrified of people making a civil rights stand in the USA because they feared their oppressor. To take that as a signal to stop the human rights marches would have been your suggestion?

I'm interested in why you engage with the bad press on this world cup across the threads and want it to stop.

Just ignore it if you want to focus on the football? I'm wondering why it seems to bother you so much. I get not being interested in opposition but you have been constantly trying to quiten the criticism. Very odd.
 
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moses said:
Personally I'm not sure you can call a media overreaction to human rights issues while they are still human rights issues. Isn't the media's job to highlight issues so we can fix them?

What's your take, that they've said enough, now stop banging on about it?

The idea that this highlighting human rights abuses makes things worse is the one media take you post here because it's the one you prefer, because it stops the negativity. It's grimly like many other scared oppressed peoples. Black people were terrified of people making a civil rights stand in the USA because they feared their oppressor. To take that as a signal to stop the human rights marches would have been your suggestion?

I'm interested in why you engage with the bad press on this world cup across the threads and want it to stop.

Just ignore it if you want to focus on the football? I'm wondering why it seems to bother you so much. I get not being interested in opposition but you have been constantly trying to quiten the criticism. Very odd.
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I think the issue is less with media overreaction but more with the western media. The messenger, not the message kind of thing.
The Western countries already got a bad rep in the region and justifiably so. And now their media comes in and try to change what they believe.
It's like hearing advice from someone who you already hate. The advice maybe sound, but there's no way you're gonna listen and follow it.
I think that poster who said changes must comes from within is right.
 
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