For all those who think were in decline.

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Results prove that the differences betwen those two teams arnt so spectacular.
The 99 team got 2 points more than last seasons team and were so feckin close to being knocked out of the CL & Fa Cup so many times its unbelieveable. Had we the same luck last season (consequently gaining the same momentum) who knows how far we could have gone?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Is this "winning momentum" all due to luck? I don't think so. In the treble year I also felt unbelievable and amazing that we could come back so many times from the edge of defeat, but that wasn't all due to luck. In the FA Cup against Arsenal we had Giggs scoring that amazing goal. In the CL final against Bayen Ole and Sheri have rescued the match in the final minutes. However now we just didn't have the same kind of talent as that time. Giggs seems no longer can beat several defenders by himself, and we also didn't have that abundant of striker talents on the bench anymore. The current team is significantly weaker than the team which won the treble, that's a fact. Veron is a disaster in PL, and we just don't have enough proven striker/forward to turn a match when we need it most.

Against Levakusen we were very poor, not unlucky. Against Arsenal at home near the end of last season we were also very poor, not unlucky. Playing like that last season we didn't deserve to win anything. That's nothing related to luck.

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

You have not said that, but your friend Murt certainly has, and you said you "agree with him".</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with him on the point of comparison between the results of last season and 98/99 yes.

What has that got to do with how good those two season's respective teams are?

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

I agree with him on the point of comparison between the results of last season and 98/99 yes.

What has that got to do with how good those two season's respective teams are?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Murt compare the results between these two seasons to make a conclusion that "the differences betwen those two teams arnt so spectacular". Do you agree with that conclusion?

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

Murt compare the results between these two seasons to make a conclusion that "the differences betwen those two teams arnt so spectacular". Do you agree with that conclusion?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well, let's put it this way. Looking at last season's attacking performance, I think it was better than 98/99.

Looking at the defensive performances, 98/99 was better.

So what do you conclude from that?

 

[sin65]

Paul Hince,who is a massive ciddy fan and ex player wrote a good article in the manchester evening blues last night comparing Uniteds current team with the 96 team.We were in exactly the same position,same points ,same won draw losses and were waiting for our inspirational captain to come back.

The difference in the league is the advancement of Liverpool and Arsenal but If Utd were able to field a full strength side,which we haven`t this season,we have a team that is capable of winning the league.

--------------Barthez---------------
GN--------Rio------O`Shea--------Micky
Becks------Keane----Scholes/Seba---Giggsy
------------Ruud-------Ole-----------

Subs from
Carroll----Blanc--Forlan--PNeville--Nicky--Fortune
Wes.

Or is my head in the sand

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

Well, let's put it this way. Looking at last season's attacking performance, I think it was better than 98/99.

Looking at the defensive performances, 98/99 was better.

So what do you conclude from that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

My opinion is that: last season's team was worse than 98/99 both in attack and in defence.

I don't have actual figure about the goal scoring ratio in these two seasons. I just have a feeling that, in 98/99 we have far more options in order to break a defence: Beck's cross, Scholes long shot, Giggs dribbling, Yorke-and-Cole's co-operation, Sheri and Ole came in as subsitute, etc.... But in last season, we sometimes look like we are clueless against a tight defence because our options have reduced a lot, and we have relied too much on one Ruud Van Nistelrooy. Do you agree with that?

 

[WeasteDevil]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

My opinion is that: last season's team was worse than 98/99 both in attack and in defence.

I don't have actual figure about the goal scoring ratio in these two seasons. I just have a feeling that, in 98/99 we have far more options in order to break a defence: Beck's cross, Scholes long shot, Giggs dribbling, Yorke-and-Cole's co-operation, Sheri and Ole came in as subsitute, etc.... But in last season, we sometimes look like we are clueless against a tight defence because our options have reduced a lot, and we have relied too much on one Ruud Van Nistelrooy. Do you agree with that?</strong><hr></blockquote>

But we still have Giggs, Beckham, and Scholes. <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

But we still have Giggs, Beckham, and Scholes. </strong><hr></blockquote>

We don't have enough option on the bench. Fergie put Scholes up front which has affected his performance. And you also agree that Giggs has been under-performing for some time now, isn't it?

 

[AlgerianRed]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

We don't have enough option on the bench. Fergie put Scholes up front which has affected his performance. And you also agree that Giggs has been under-performing for some time now, isn't it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I agree with your analysis 100%, but Giggs is still our best player and when you review the games we played very well in this season, you will notice that they were the same ones where Giggzy was the star, it looks like he just lost some of his hunger and is slightly dipressed when looking at how the others are performing. I think it is for the sake of Giggzy and the Real and realistic fans we need to rebuild. <img src="graemlins/angel.gif" border="0" alt="[Angel]" />

 

[Murt]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>Murt compare the results between these two seasons to make a conclusion that "the differences betwen those two teams arnt so spectacular". Do you agree with that conclusion?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Compare them any way you want, the only significant difference between the teams those seasons was the F.A. Cup runs and even their we were on thin ice several occasions.
Had we had the same luck in 2001 as 99 we wouyld have built up a similar momentum and beaten teams like Boro, Derby etc, Forlans shot in Germany would have went in via the post and who knows what. Had we similar injuries in 99 ie Keane, Stam (Ferdinand), Beckham, Neville, Scholes out for long periods we would surely have dropped a few more points and not won the league etc.

A fully fit Utd with a bit more good fortune and momentum will go far this season, you mark my words <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Compare them any way you want, the only significant difference between the teams those seasons was the F.A. Cup runs and even their we were on thin ice several occasions.
Had we had the same luck in 2001 as 99 we wouyld have built up a similar momentum and beaten teams like Boro, Derby etc, Forlans shot in Germany would have went in via the post and who knows what. Had we similar injuries in 99 ie Keane, Stam (Ferdinand), Beckham, Neville, Scholes out for long periods we would surely have dropped a few more points and not won the league etc.

A fully fit Utd with a bit more good fortune and momentum will go far this season, you mark my words <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

agreed.

 

[Murt]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>agreed. </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/annoyed.gif" border="0" alt="[Annoyed]" />

Well in that case i take it all back and meant the totally opposite
<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

Had we similar injuries in 99 ie Keane, Stam (Ferdinand), Beckham, Neville, Scholes out for long periods we would surely have dropped a few more points and not won the league etc.

A fully fit Utd with a bit more good fortune and momentum will go far this season, you mark my words <img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>


I agree we are quite unlucky in term of injury this season, but trust our captain's words: Injury is not an excuse. Arsenal had their big share of injury last season (Seaman, Adams, Cole, Pires, Lunjgeberg, Van Brokhost, Henry all had been out for a period of time) yet they still won the double. In the home game against them at the end of last season, we were in full team, and we knew we must win, yet we still got well beaten by an Arsenal without their best 3 players (Berkamp, Pires and Henry). We were also beaten by Liverpool twice without significant injury problem. Therefore we fully deserved what we got at the end: 3rd in EPL. Use any excuse you want, whether it is fortune, injury or momentum, but the fact is straight and simple: we were not good enough.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/annoyed.gif" border="0" alt="[Annoyed]" />

Well in that case i take it all back and meant the totally opposite
</strong><hr></blockquote>

it's that bad huh... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>


I agree we are quite unlucky in term of injury this season, but trust our captain's words: Injury is not an excuse. Arsenal had their big share of injury last season (Seaman, Adams, Cole, Pires, Lunjgeberg, Van Brokhost, Henry all had been out for a period of time) yet they still won the double. In the home game against them at the end of last season, we were in full team, and we knew we must win, yet we still got well beaten by an Arsenal without their best 3 players (Berkamp, Pires and Henry). We were also beaten by Liverpool twice without significant injury problem. Therefore we fully deserved what we got at the end: 3rd in EPL. Use any excuse you want, whether it is fortune, injury or momentum, but the fact is straight and simple: we were not good enough.</strong><hr></blockquote>

i agree about what keane said, but the problem is not really within the injuries itself.. we have had our fair share of injuries and went on to win things, but that's when our squad depth was much better than this.

with our squad being as thin as it is to the point where Pugh would be a regular on the bench i think injuries will affect us more than it ever has.

it's no excuse to not play well, but we have no able substitutes to take over.

even if we win anything this season once we have everyone back we still can't deny that our squad is thin and will most likely fall on hard times again should anyone gets injured.

 

[RUnited]

btw, quote from Keane:

"We have one or two injuries but that is too easy an excuse for people to use,' he told MUTV.

we actually have 5 first team members out injured right now (rio, gaz, butt, keane, becks) and i think a few more of the reserves..

i won't argue tho, but i did give you my reasons about the squad depth in my earlier post.

 

[Murt]

Originally posted by RUnited:
<strong>even if we win anything this season once we have everyone back we still can't deny that our squad is thin and will most likely fall on hard times again should anyone gets injured.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Our 98/99 squad

Keepers
Van Der Gouw,
Culkin,
Schmeichel

Defenders
John O'Shea,
Gary Neville
Michael Clegg
Jaap Stam
Wesley Brown
Danny Higginbotham
Lee Roche
Denis Irwin
David May
Philip Neville
Henning Berg
Ronny Johnsen

Midfielders
Paul Scholes
Jesper Blomqvist
Michael Stewart
Richard Wellens
Mark Wilson
Roy Keane
Ryan Giggs
Nicky Butt
David Beckham
Luke Chadwick
Jonathan Greening
Jordi Cruyff

Forwards
Alex Notman
David Healy
Teddy Sheringham
Andy Cole
Dwight Yorke
Eric Nevland
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
Phil Mulryne

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


Lopez Felipe Ricardo
Fabien Barthez
Roy Carroll

Defenders

Gary Neville
Laurent Blanc
Philip Neville
David May
Wesley Brown
Mikael Silvestre
Rio Ferdinand
John O'Shea

Midfielders
Juan Sebastian Veron
David Beckham
Nicky Butt
Ryan Giggs
Luke Chadwick
Roy Keane
Paul Scholes
Quinton Fortune
Danny Pugh
Michael Stewart
Kieran Richardson

Forwards
Ruud Van Nistelrooy
Ole Gunnar Solskjaer
Diego Forlan

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

The way i see it,

Were weaker in the keeper front as Schmeichal in his prime is impossible to better or even match imo.
The defence is as strong then as it is now.
I would argue that the midfield is as healthy too, although were short of wide men, Blomqvist never over impressed but he was a handy option.
The only place were lacking is up front, one more really good player there and we could be back to our best again

I dont like to compare teams but i think a squad comparison also highlights the fact that were not a million miles away from that team.
A striker, less injuries, a bit of luck, momentum , but most importantly a will to win and hunger would be what id prescribe.
The major differenc between us now and then is hunger.

 

[RUnited]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

I dont like to compare teams but i think a squad comparison also highlights the fact that were not a million miles away from that team.
A striker, less injuries, a bit of luck, momentum , but most importantly a will to win and hunger would be what id prescribe.
The major differenc between us now and then is hunger.</strong><hr></blockquote>

the quality of the squad has changed too IMO.. i agree with the rest of what you said.. although we also probably need more players to compete on LB, LM, RB, and CM (defensive, for the future).

richardson should be given more chances if SAF really thinks Giggs is not up to it. Someone should also come in to compete with Phil for positions, seems like Phil gets a run everytime anyone get injured - he's also in a way guaranteed a place off the bench! we certainly need a lot of positions competitions to boost performance.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

I dont like to compare teams but i think a squad comparison also highlights the fact that were not a million miles away from that team.
A striker, less injuries, a bit of luck, momentum , but most importantly a will to win and hunger would be what id prescribe.
The major differenc between us now and then is hunger.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Quality alone, I agree we are not really that much worse than 99. But as you said, hunger, confidence and will to win are also important, and adding these together we can explain why we failed to win anything last season. IMO, we badly need new options in offence. One new striker is not enough. We need more, or we need to give potential players such as Richardson or Nardello (sp?) more chances.

 

[Murt]

Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

Quality alone, I agree we are not really that much worse than 99. But as you said, hunger, confidence and will to win are also important, and adding these together we can explain why we failed to win anything last season. IMO, we badly need new options in offence. One new striker is not enough. We need more, or we need to give potential players such as Richardson or Nardello (sp?) more chances.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I think weve plenty of options in defence with both Nevilles, Silvestre, O'Shea, and Wes all able to play in several positions.
If i was to go for something more over a striker id go for a wide midfielder, Duff. If i was to bring in a 3rd player id bring in a left back (Escude)if Blanc and May leave.
Most money should be spent on a striker, the other two positions are less acute.
We still need to generate the hunger though no matter what happens as without that it doesnt matter who you have.

 

[uranushk1]

Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

I think weve plenty of options in defence with both Nevilles, Silvestre, O'Shea, and Wes all able to play in several positions.
If i was to go for something more over a striker id go for a wide midfielder, Duff. If i was to bring in a 3rd player id bring in a left back (Escude)if Blanc and May leave.
Most money should be spent on a striker, the other two positions are less acute.
We still need to generate the hunger though no matter what happens as without that it doesnt matter who you have.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I'm not saying we need option in defence, I said "offence".... but may be I should say "attack" instead