For all those who think were in decline.

Murt

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Fergie, Rednews
"We're 3 points better off at this point in the season than we were in the season when we won the treble." <hr></blockquote>

Can someone be arsed to confirm this?

If its true its an amazing stat.

Ppl seem to remember 98/99 ( :eek: :o <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> ;) )for wins in the San Siro, Nou Camp, Villa park etc and not the 3:0 loss @ highbury or the 3:1 loss @ hillsborough.
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The competition has improved since then, but we all hope that when we get our players back that we'll go on a great run, but we might be leaving that run too late for the PL.
 
Actually Fergie's dead wrong (as usual). <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

In 98/99 you had 28 pts. after 14 games but now have only 23. And in '99 you won the league with 79 pts., last season we won it on 87 pts. and are on our way to a similar tally this year.
 
Originally posted by Arsenal:
<strong>Actually Fergie's dead wrong (as usual). <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

.</strong><hr></blockquote>

is that the same fergie that knocked you out of the cup in 99 and stopped you winning the league, also stopped you 2000 and oh yes stopped you in 2001

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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shouldn't arsenal supporters be enjoying this good spell they are having ... it won't last long my friend .... just keep in mind that Man Utd are rich enough to buy Arsenal out!!!!!
 
1 1) United 2-2 Leicester - 15 Aug - 1 Point
2 2) West Ham 0-0 United - 22 Aug - 1 Point
5 3) United 4-1 Charlton - 9 Sept - 3 Points
8 4) United 2-0 Coventry - 12 Sept - 3 Points
8 5) Arse 3-0 United - 19 Sept - 0 Points (Stam had a howler)
11 6) United 2-0 Scousers - 24 Sept - 3 Points
14 7) Southhampton 0-3 United - 3 Oct - 3 Points
17 8) United 5-1 Wimbledon - 17 Oct - 3 Points
18 9) Derby 1-1 United - 24 Oct - 1 Point
21 10) Everton 1-4 United - 31 Oct - 3 Points
22 11) United 0-0 Newcastel - 8 Nov - 1 Point
25 12) United 3-2 Blackburn - 14 Nov - 3 Points
25 13) Shef Wed 3-1 United - 21 Nov - 0 Points
28 14) United 3-2 Leeds - 29 Nov - 3 Points

14 matches, 28 points.

Yes, SAF is wrong on this point!
 
Then again, we've not played Arsenal or Liverpool yet, and if we beat them, he will be right.

He probably meant it in relative terms.
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>1 1) United 2-2 Leicester - 15 Aug - 1 Point
2 2) West Ham 0-0 United - 22 Aug - 1 Point
5 3) United 4-1 Charlton - 9 Sept - 3 Points
8 4) United 2-0 Coventry - 12 Sept - 3 Points
8 5) Arse 3-0 United - 19 Sept - 0 Points (Stam had a howler)
11 6) United 2-0 Scousers - 24 Sept - 3 Points
14 7) Southhampton 0-3 United - 3 Oct - 3 Points
17 8) United 5-1 Wimbledon - 17 Oct - 3 Points
18 9) Derby 1-1 United - 24 Oct - 1 Point
21 10) Everton 1-4 United - 31 Oct - 3 Points
22 11) United 0-0 Newcastel - 8 Nov - 1 Point
25 12) United 3-2 Blackburn - 14 Nov - 3 Points
25 13) Shef Wed 3-1 United - 21 Nov - 0 Points
28 14) United 3-2 Leeds - 29 Nov - 3 Points

14 matches, 28 points.

Yes, SAF is wrong on this point!</strong><hr></blockquote>

he said it before the hammers game which means were only 3 points off 98/99's standards.
Emphasises the fine line between succes & failure.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Emphasises the fine line between succes & failure.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed, and that season had three very very fine lines.
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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>
Agreed, and that season had three very very fine lines.</strong><hr></blockquote>

a last day win against Spurs,
3rd round vs Pool,
Schmeichals penalty save, Giggs goal,
comeback in turin,
and of course Camp Nou

we were as near to fuch all that season as were to the lot last season imo,
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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>1 1) United 2-2 Leicester - 15 Aug - 1 Point
2 2) West Ham 0-0 United - 22 Aug - 1 Point
5 3) United 4-1 Charlton - 9 Sept - 3 Points
8 4) United 2-0 Coventry - 12 Sept - 3 Points
8 5) Arse 3-0 United - 19 Sept - 0 Points (Stam had a howler)
11 6) United 2-0 Scousers - 24 Sept - 3 Points
14 7) Southhampton 0-3 United - 3 Oct - 3 Points
17 8) United 5-1 Wimbledon - 17 Oct - 3 Points
18 9) Derby 1-1 United - 24 Oct - 1 Point


I think, in all honesty, if we had played the Arse, the Barcodes and the Poo at this stage in the season this year we'd probably only have about 16 points.
21 10) Everton 1-4 United - 31 Oct - 3 Points
22 11) United 0-0 Newcastel - 8 Nov - 1 Point
25 12) United 3-2 Blackburn - 14 Nov - 3 Points
25 13) Shef Wed 3-1 United - 21 Nov - 0 Points
28 14) United 3-2 Leeds - 29 Nov - 3 Points

14 matches, 28 points.

Yes, SAF is wrong on this point!</strong><hr></blockquote>
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Fergie, Rednews


Can someone be arsed to confirm this?

If its true its an amazing stat.

Ppl seem to remember 98/99 ( :eek: :o <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> ;) )for wins in the San Siro, Nou Camp, Villa park etc and not the 3:0 loss @ highbury or the 3:1 loss @ hillsborough.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You are just saying one statisitic which we are better now than 98/99, but you fail to notisfy other 99 worse statistics. Also, at this time last season our points were also more than at the same time in 98. So do you want to jump to the conclusion that the team last season was better than the team which won the treble? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Yes, I have always said we are on decline since 99. It is simple and obvious to look at the results of each season:
98/99: win THE treble
99/00: win the world champion and the leauge by 16 points.
00/01: win the leauge by 13 points and nothing else.
01/02: lose everything, mostly because of our poor and error proned defence. But can still beat some poor opponents fairly easily.
02/03 so far: struggling in EVERY league match. Every teams (including WBA, West Ham and Sunderland) looks like a big challenge for us.

If this isn't a decline, tell me what is.
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When even SAF had admitted that we are in decline

1 Weaker than Liverpool and Arsenal
2 Getting predictactable

etc etc than WE ARE ON THE DECLINE
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
[QB]So do you want to jump to the conclusion that the team last season was better than the team which won the treble? <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
QB]<hr></blockquote>

If were on such a decline how did we have our 2nd best season in roughly 30 yrs last season?
My conclusion is that gulf between this seasons team and 98/99's team isnt as far off it might seem.
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

If were on such a decline how did we have our 2nd best season in roughly 30 yrs last season?
My conclusion is that gulf between this seasons team and 98/99's team isnt as far off it might seem.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree with Murt.

The line between success and relative failure is fine.

In terms of the quality of the players, we're IMO as good as then, but we're not experiencing the same lucky breaks and don't have the same belief as then.

Winning becomes a habit and a rythm. We had that then, not now.
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in the treble season as big an achievement as it was domestically the opposition were so much further behind you n arse r pool weren't ahead of u, i believe liverpool r ahead of u's many will disagree i support them so obv im gonna say that ye only lost the league if ye fecked up somewhere along the way now u have to hope arse r pool feck up
 
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

If were on such a decline how did we have our 2nd best season in roughly 30 yrs last season?
My conclusion is that gulf between this seasons team and 98/99's team isnt as far off it might seem.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We have our 2nd best season in roughly 30 yrs last season? Base on what? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
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Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>

In terms of the quality of the players, we're IMO as good as then, but we're not experiencing the same lucky breaks and don't have the same belief as then.

Winning becomes a habit and a rythm. We had that then, not now.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I agree the quality of the current players have no big problem. But as I've said ealier, the current players don't have the confidence, fighting spirit and self-belief as in the past. Besides, we do not have the enough "depth" now as we were a few seasons ago.
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Originally posted by farawaylands:
<strong>

and who exactly is "we"?</strong><hr></blockquote>
He and the only other Arse (fan)in Iceland
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
Watch a lot of such fans get out of there holes these days. ;)
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Fergie, Rednews


Can someone be arsed to confirm this?

If its true its an amazing stat.

Ppl seem to remember 98/99 ( :eek: :o <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> ;) )for wins in the San Siro, Nou Camp, Villa park etc and not the 3:0 loss @ highbury or the 3:1 loss @ hillsborough.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> and all this time I thought Murt hated statistics ;)
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>
If were on such a decline how did we have our 2nd best season in roughly 30 yrs last season?
My conclusion is that gulf between this seasons team and 98/99's team isnt as far off it might seem.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are being an Ostrich hiding its head in the sand murty boy.
Lets face it 'MR. UTD" we are in decline and we need to rebuild. We do not have time waiting for players to get in shape and pay back their fee in Installments and in flashes every now and then.
I admit that some has the potential to play better in a consistent way, but we do not have the time.
Getting rid of some players (which will be painful)to us, but we are stale and some of the players are not hungry or ambitious anymore. I will hate to wait for as long as I did in the eighties(11yrs, (surprised Murty boy?))but We need to rebuild no matter what and we have a few good young players to build around Rio, O'shea, Brown, Silvestre, Richardson & RVN.
+ Becks,Giggs, Scholes,Ole(third striker) and Keano for experience,the rest are expandable. This means we could buy 3-5 new players at once,
a Goalkeeper, a defender, a midfielder and two forwards.
Wake up Pal, earth to Murty..Earth to Murty ;) <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" />
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Murt is right, last season we were almost as close to winning the PL and CL as we were to loosing them in 98/99.

Leverkusen vs Juve matches - damn first, phew second.
Home to Arsenal last year - boo.

That's obvious.
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>Murt is right, last season we were almost as close to winning the PL and CL as we were to loosing them in 98/99.

Leverkusen vs Juve matches - damn first, phew second.
Home to Arsenal last year - boo.

That's obvious.</strong><hr></blockquote>

:(

Just don't know what to say. When people bury their heads into the sand like that, I feel sad of them. Truth is, in general term we already lost the leauge before Chirstmas last season, and in CL we were beaten by a team which has only one world class player in Ballack. Compare to the previous two seasons, when we won the league in Christmas, and in CL we were only beaten by the world class teams and the eventual winners Real and Bayen.

To say the United last season is just as good as the team which won the treble is, no matter how to see it, the craziest idea in the world. Even Fergie and his players won't believe terrible lie as that... In the past I think those hard-core fans are just too faithful to the club, but still has some football knowledge and sense. But now, I begin to doubt that.
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Originally posted by ALGred:
<strong>
You are being an Ostrich hiding its head in the sand murty boy.
Lets face it 'MR. UTD" we are in decline and we need to rebuild. We do not have time waiting for players to get in shape and pay back their fee in Installments and in flashes every now and then.
I admit that some has the potential to play better in a consistent way, but we do not have the time.
Getting rid of some players (which will be painful)to us, but we are stale and some of the players are not hungry or ambitious anymore. I will hate to wait for as long as I did in the eighties(11yrs, (surprised Murty boy?))but We need to rebuild no matter what and we have a few good young players to build around Rio, O'shea, Brown, Silvestre, Richardson & RVN.
+ Becks,Giggs, Scholes,Ole(third striker) and Keano for experience,the rest are expandable. This means we could buy 3-5 new players at once,
a Goalkeeper, a defender, a midfielder and two forwards.
Wake up Pal, earth to Murty..Earth to Murty ;) <img src="graemlins/nervous.gif" border="0" alt="[Nervous]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

You are wasting your breath AlGred, old blinkered boy murty will never be able to comprehend the fact that our squad isn't the best anymore.

;)
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<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

and which club from Israel were you playing Fergie?
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>Murt is right, last season we were almost as close to winning the PL and CL as we were to loosing them in 98/99.
Leverkusen vs Juve matches - damn first, phew second.
Home to Arsenal last year - boo.
That's obvious.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right!? We are not the only team in the EPL, other teams improved more. Also catching up to one team is different than 3 or 4, do you think they will all fall at the same time or wait for us!?com'n be realistic. ;)
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Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>We have our 2nd best season in roughly 30 yrs last season? Base on what? :confused: </strong><hr></blockquote>

We won the European cup in 1968 which is 34 yrs ago.
We didnt qualify for it again until 1992.
We got to the Semis in 1997 and got beaten 2:0 on aggregate.
we got to the semis last season and got knocked out o n away goals.

Is that any help.

Decline is a expression for failure our in our case not winning trophies.
Had Bergkamp scored that penalty, had Jankers CL final effort shot went in rather than hit the post or had Spurs pulled one back on the final day wed hae won feckall for 2 seasons running.

Just think for a minute how immensly close the Great 99 team was from achieving nothing, for 2 seasons in a row.
We finished last season with just 2 points less and a lousy away goal from the final of the CL. Not a bad seasons work imo.
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Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>
You are wasting your breath AlGred, old blinkered boy murty will never be able to comprehend the fact that our squad isn't the best anymore.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

When were we the best?
In 98/99
,,,when we got 2 points more than last season or when Carsten Jancker hit the crossbar in the second half in Barcelona. In 98/99 we got through to the final thanks to 1 measly goal more than last season.

Ive never said were thwe worlds, or even Englands best. My point is that were far better off than most of our sunshine supporters believe us to be.

Forlan hit the crossbar in the Leverkusen game last season and Jancker hit the cross bar in Barcelona. Imagine for a second that both efforts in fact went in.
Can you grasp the fact that succes and failure in those 2 on paper contrasting seasons was seperated by the width of a post?
Had those two shots gone in and we were unlucky in 99 and won fuch all instead of being lucky last season and wining the CL. Which team would have been better?
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

When were we the best?
In 98/99
,,,when we got 2 points more than last season or when Carsten Jancker hit the crossbar ...
My point is that were far better off than most of our sunshine supporters believe us to be.
last season and Jancker hit the cross bar ...Had those two shots gone in and we were unlucky in 99 and won fuch all instead of being lucky last season and wining the CL. Which team would have been better?</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are totaly off the mark here, this is all part of the game , every damn team gets a bit of luck, we can go on and on about other games involving Lucky/unlucky fortunate/unfo. moments. So UTD is not the only lucky one, as a matter of fact I almost always feel we are more Unlucky than Lucky.
Why all the fuss and depression when we talk about rebuilding or even using the word 'decline', it is not a reflection of failure, it is a failure not to stop the decline as soon as you can. Declining happens even if we get the same points or more goals this season but still finish 2nd or 3rd, in this case we declined because other teams improved more and betterd us. <img src="graemlins/annoyed.gif" border="0" alt="[Annoyed]" />
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Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

We won the European cup in 1968 which is 34 yrs ago.
We didnt qualify for it again until 1992.
We got to the Semis in 1997 and got beaten 2:0 on aggregate.
we got to the semis last season and got knocked out o n away goals.

Is that any help.

Decline is a expression for failure our in our case not winning trophies.
Had Bergkamp scored that penalty, had Jankers CL final effort shot went in rather than hit the post or had Spurs pulled one back on the final day wed hae won feckall for 2 seasons running.

Just think for a minute how immensly close the Great 99 team was from achieving nothing, for 2 seasons in a row.
We finished last season with just 2 points less and a lousy away goal from the final of the CL. Not a bad seasons work imo.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you were talking about last season was our "best season in Europe between 1968-1997". Then I understand, but why you can't write it more clearly? it's easy to be confused if you just said last season was our second best season in 30 years, because it simply wasn't.

About the dozen "IFs" you said later, I'm afriad you're just thinking too much. Berkamp missed that penalty because the big Dane pulled out a magnificant save. Janker hit the post but it happens every week in everywhere in the world. Spurs had no chance to pull one back and they also didn't really want to do so. Yes, luck is definitely a factor for our treble, but you can't take it away from us, and you can't forget THAT GOAL of Giggs in the Arsenal match, that kind of terrfic co-operation of Yorke and Cole, that kind of stable and brillaint of the big Dane and the defence. All these make the treble happened. Last season was a big failure for us, not onlhy because of final result, but because: Giggs magic was missing. The defence was unstable and sometimes terrible. The midfield was non-creative and Veron was a big failure, and the forward lack the cutting edge at critical moments. (against Leverkusen and Arsenal).

From statistic and record, last season may not be far wrose than 98/99. But from the performance level itself, it was. Yes we could still make an impressive run in the second half of EPL and got into the semi of CL. That's mainly the result of Ruud's non-stopping goals and some brilliant moments of individuals (Becks goal against Deport, etc.) But if we analyze the performance of the entire team as a whole, obviously the performance level of the whole team last season has shown a lot of weakneses and unstable. We no longer terrify opponents even at home. We can no longer send out a second string team against poor league opponents just as we did before. These problems become more serious this season, as we were struggling in EVERY league match so far, no matter how poor was the opponent.

Recently I see that you always like to put out some statistic and record for your agrument. But that's also your problem: Relying on statistic too much and stop thinking, analyzing things yourself. Statistic, record are something dead, flattering and waiting for someone to break them. They can help us to analyze things, but totally relying on them to explain EVERYTHING is not the cleverest thing, IMO.
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Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>

So you were talking about last season was our "best season in Europe between 1968-1997". Then I understand, but why you can't write it more clearly? it's easy to be confused if you just said last season was our second best season in 30 years, because it simply wasn't.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was our 2nd best season in Europe for 30 yrs: Fact
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Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>To say the United last season is just as good as the team which won the treble is, no matter how to see it, the craziest idea in the world.</strong><hr></blockquote>

But it is you saying that, I've not said it. You're assuming things.

I said, we were as almost as close to winning the PL and CL last season as we were to losing it in 98/99. Who compared the bloody teams?

Oh yes, you!
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Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>I said, we were as almost as close to winning the PL and CL last season as we were to losing it in 98/99. Who compared the bloody teams?
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Results prove that the differences betwen those two teams arnt so spectacular.
The 99 team got 2 points more than last seasons team and were so feckin close to being knocked out of the CL & Fa Cup so many times its unbelieveable. Had we the same luck last season (consequently gaining the same momentum) who knows how far we could have gone?
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The next three games will decide our Season.
Given the absences from our prefered first team squad the realistic expectation is that we will not enjoy these games. And that our chances in the EPL will be diminished beyond redemption.
Our only hope is a strong revival after Xmas which qualifies us for the CL next season. IMHO that is a long shot.
THe next phase of the CL will find us out for sure. What's the answer?
Feck knows but we have had a great ten years. Now it is the Arses turn.
:(
 
Originally posted by WeasteDevil:
<strong>

But it is you saying that, I've not said it. You're assuming things.

I said, we were as almost as close to winning the PL and CL last season as we were to losing it in 98/99. Who compared the bloody teams?

Oh yes, you!</strong><hr></blockquote>

You have not said that, but your friend Murt certainly has, and you said you "agree with him".
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