Fergie going back to the lone striker ....AGAIN!

LABOB

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This is what I think screwed up last season...and as I stated earlier on last mmonth RVN doesn't like working by himself up front....

A 1-1 score GREAT! Looks like a repeat of last year.

No matter hiw much Fergie fecks up this season with his determination to make this work...and as much as keano keeps messing with his other team mates by whatever was written in his book I'll always stick with MUFC.

I know my opinions will not be amoong the most popular....I believe I speak the truth.
 
Prediction......we'll start playing better while Keano is out. Truely sad to say because he's such a fabulous player.
 
Originally posted by LABOB:
<strong>Prediction......we'll start playing better while Keano is out. Truely sad to say because he's such a fabulous player.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You mean like tonight?
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I don't think the main problem is RVN playing alone. It is a lack of understanding between him and Scholes. There were a few occassionswhen we had the ball out wide and RVN and Scholes made a move to the same area. They need to get this understanding and only then will we cause opposition defences problems, until then we will be mainly relying on set pieces to get the goals
 
i think we'll have to get used to that formation because we're going to see it a hell of a lot more. The reason for this? seems to me like Fergie really only trusts RVN & Ole to do the business. He wont play the 2 together incase he gets an injury. Seems to me like he doesnt want to rely on Forlan & i dont blame him. Really messed up not getting an experienced 4th striker in.

IMO youd need to have control like Mark Hughes to play well in that formation. But Ruud doesnt have control like Mark Hughes.
 
Originally posted by LABOB:
<strong>Prediction......we'll start playing better while Keano is out. Truely sad to say because he's such a fabulous player.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bollox. Anytime Keane is out we always miss his drive from the middle of the park. Veron & Butt played well tonight but werent the driving force from the middle. Hence the crowd got frustrated because we were slowing the play down and going sideways/backwards too much.

Ive got a bad feeling that those United fans who knock Keano are going to learn the hard way what he brings to the side.
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Now we only have two proven scorer in our team. This would force us to play lone striker in the majority of our games. Fergie just didn't have many choices now, as we have missed the time to bring in another striker. Now we can only hope that Scholes beings to adapt or Forlan begins to come good.
 
So the concencus is we shouldn't have offlaoded so many strikers...at the very least til we got quality replacements.

And this is why I wouldn't bank on us doing shite this year...maybe in the coming years when we get the striker thing straightened out, which could take years. Getting the new ppl in and then them gettting used to each other. This is what we had and now it looks completely turned upsidedown.

And as I've said before....with me being a fan for only 5 or 6 years...I'll stick around for the longhahul.

Just someone please, explain to me how a genious footie manager like Fergie let this go so array?
Was it he didn't care because he thought he was leaving?
 
Originally posted by LABOB:
<strong>So the concencus is we shouldn't have offlaoded so many strikers...at the very least til we got quality replacements.

And this is why I wouldn't bank on us doing shite this year...maybe in the coming years when we get the striker thing straightened out, which could take years. Getting the new ppl in and then them gettting used to each other. This is what we had and now it looks completely turned upsidedown.

And as I've said before....with me being a fan for only 5 or 6 years...I'll stick around for the longhahul.

Just someone please, explain to me how a genious footie manager like Fergie let this go so array?
Was it he didn't care because he thought he was leaving?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fergie has long said he'd like to have 4 strikers. So may be the fault is not completely on his side.
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Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>

IMO youd need to have control like Mark Hughes to play well in that formation. But Ruud doesnt have control like Mark Hughes.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly.

It's not the formation - just the fact that we don't have the right personnel.

It will work brilliantly sometimes - but imo that will be down to the opposition allowing us to.

I know practice makes perfect, but how many points might we lose practising.

At least we got all three points last night - but playing one striker against such a defensive team was always going to be a struggle.

Can anyone deny that the best and most consistent football United played last season was in the run following the defeat of Derby at OT.

It's all very well using one striker away from home, especially in Europe where it seems to work better - but at home, where we want to see attacking play?

Boro just came to defend, and hope to score on a break - and we didn't make enough use of the width. Tho if we had, with only one striker, it would have been pointless.
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Positive thinking is the key... stop pin-pointing our players and SAF!

We've won against Boro... Patience is a virtue...
 
Originally posted by dmode:
<strong>Positive thinking is the key... stop pin-pointing our players and SAF!

We've won against Boro... Patience is a virtue...</strong><hr></blockquote>

I've already posted some positive and optimistic topics - but I still think we should be more of an attacking side at Old Trafford.

And everyone said about being patient last year........
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Scholes is not working as the link man with Ruud, didn't work last year and wont work this year. Giggs is the ideal plyer for that role and he showed that last year and now that we have Forlan (who'll never score unless he gets a run in the team, 10 minutes is not long enough) we can play him on the left and the side wont be unbalanced, plus he has pace and 2 feet, Giggs only has one good one!!
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I've already posted some positive and optimistic topics - but I still think we should be more of an attacking side at Old Trafford.

And everyone said about being patient last year........</strong><hr></blockquote>

Watch the away games to see us in full flow imo, teams that come to OT (with the exception of ARSE) come to spoil and nick a goal if they can. You'll see more dull games at OT this season due to the successful tactic of the above last term.
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Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I've already posted some positive and optimistic topics - but I still think we should be more of an attacking side at Old Trafford.

And everyone said about being patient last year........</strong><hr></blockquote>

Livvie, I have to 100% agree with you. I think you have probably been the most positive person in the last fortnight while we all have been moaning; However one must accept facts...

We were at home and should have gone 4 4 2 and played attack knowing fully well that Boro would play to defend. ANd if you do decide to play 5 in middle, it seemed like Spaghetti with everyone not sure where the other was. Still dont understand the logic of rushing Scholsey back when Ole and DIego could have easily started!!!!


ANyway a win is a win and all we can do is improve!!!!!
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golden-blunder
IMO youd need to have control like Mark Hughes to play well in that formation. But Ruud doesnt have control like Mark Hughes <hr></blockquote>

The first one to agree with my sentiments about Ruud's first touch & ball control?
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Livvie,

It's not the formation - just the fact that we don't have the right personnel <hr></blockquote>

Another one who agrees with my sentiment? :eek:

At least we got all three points last night - but playing one striker against such a defensive team was always going to be a struggle.

Can anyone deny that the best and most consistent football United played last season was in the run following the defeat of Derby at OT.

It's all very well using one striker away from home, especially in Europe where it seems to work better - but at home, where we want to see attacking play?
<hr></blockquote>

Agreed! ( return of favour? :D )

Actually, I'd go one step further ( as usual ) - does anyone seriously think Keano wud have made any diff last night, the way we played? :confused:

The positives - Tweety again played marvelously, Blanc is proving to be a real defensive stalwart, Rio also played solidly, even Phil played well, & Barthez didn't screw up!

The defense seems to be shaping up very well indeed - pity the midfield & attack weren't more creative but honestly, I'd prefer they didn't play well & still collect the 3 points ( they can't be playing that bad throughout the season! ) rather then play brilliantly yet end up with nothing or 1 point only!
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Ferguson's intention was always to persist with the lone striker option. He himself said that he thought the system worked well last year. He'll play 4-4-2 against the "weaker" teams I think.

Keane may have made a difference last night but what you have to bear in mind is that teams like Boro come to OT to try and grind out a draw or a win with a goal on the break. As such it's difficult to play against and a win like last nights will do me nicely thanks. I think we'll play the more attractive football away from home this season as a consequence.
 
Originally posted by Livvie20:
<strong>

I've already posted some positive and optimistic topics - but I still think we should be more of an attacking side at Old Trafford.

And everyone said about being patient last year........</strong><hr></blockquote>

Give the new players time... our players are no supermen...
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Ferguson's intention was always to persist with the lone striker option. He himself said that he thought the system worked well last year. He'll play 4-4-2 against the "weaker" teams I think.

Keane may have made a difference last night but what you have to bear in mind is that teams like Boro come to OT to try and grind out a draw or a win with a goal on the break. As such it's difficult to play against and a win like last nights will do me nicely thanks. I think we'll play the more attractive football away from home this season as a consequence.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Good point Dans ...However until now this "attractive" football away from home has got us two draws...Its putting away the chances that may cost us..Its not whether we have 3 or 4 strikers, but a pair that gels well. In pur treble season if Cole and Yorke had a day off..Well Teddy and Ole were a great pair..Play differently and change the style..That was what helped us to strive until the end in a season which we had the MOST DIFFICULT fixtures in all 3 fronts
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In a 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 there is no pair of strikers to speak of. So no gelling necessary. The system is designed to get results if you ask me and at home it does so by controlling the midfield against teams playing 11 man defences and away it does so by having options/outlets in the midfield on the counter.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>In a 4-5-1 or 4-4-1-1 there is no pair of strikers to speak of. So no gelling necessary. The system is designed to get results if you ask me and at home it does so by controlling the midfield against teams playing 11 man defences and away it does so by having options/outlets in the midfield on the counter.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry Dans..gelling is an issue...People when they play together know where the other places himself. However with Fergie keeping on tinkering there is no real gelling and although Veron did OK, I am not sure the midfield really know each ones role....Atleast thats what I have noticed on tele here in France
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I assumed you were talking about the gelling of two strikers? In the system we're discussing there aren't two strikers hence there's nothing to gel.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>I assumed you were talking about the gelling of two strikers? In the system we're discussing there aren't two strikers hence there's nothing to gel.</strong><hr></blockquote>

True, but you do agree that in a 4 5 1 system there is someone in the hole just behind?
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Well no actually I don't. I think in a 4-5-1 we play with 5 straight midfielders most of whom will play nearer the striker at one point or another during the game. I'd say Beckham and Butt do not but the others do at some stage. I honestly think it's just a question of time in so much as the midfielders need to adjust to the system.
 
I suggested on this forum somewhile ago that Fergie should play Scholes upfront with Ruud not just behind him. I don't know whether fergie logs onto Red Cafe (!!) but that's just what he's doing at the moment and I think he should persist with it. RVN on his own is not the answer but with either Paul or Ole in close attendance then things could work out. Time will tell.
 
Originally posted by dmode:
<strong>

Give the new players time... our players are no supermen...</strong><hr></blockquote>


What new players would that be??

Rio doesn't need time. And is already superman.
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Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>I suggested on this forum somewhile ago that Fergie should play Scholes upfront with Ruud not just behind him. I don't know whether fergie logs onto Red Cafe (!!) but that's just what he's doing at the moment and I think he should persist with it. RVN on his own is not the answer but with either Paul or Ole in close attendance then things could work out. Time will tell.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Is my memory playing tricks, or did Scholesy start as a striker.

I remember when Andy Cole came, it was Scholes who suffered as much as anyone, and was always on the bench. Which annoyed me greatly as he had scored a good few goals.
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We won didn't we?

Scholes finally seems to be getting to grips with being the hole player, IMO. Queiroz seems to be having a good effect.

And we need to practise 4-4-1-1 now so we're ready for when we really need it later in the season in Europe. If not at home against Middlesborough in September, then when?
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Well no actually I don't. I think in a 4-5-1 we play with 5 straight midfielders most of whom will play nearer the striker at one point or another during the game. I'd say Beckham and Butt do not but the others do at some stage. I honestly think it's just a question of time in so much as the midfielders need to adjust to the system.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Well I guess I had a different understanding of the 4 5 1 system then. And given that we have not changed anyone in midfield I presume that by "time to adjust" you mean that this is a second "test" season for this type of system.

Well I hope you are right...
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Originally posted by sunny:
<strong>

Well I guess I had a different understanding of the 4 5 1 system then. And given that we have not changed anyone in midfield I presume that by "time to adjust" you mean that this is a second "test" season for this type of system.

Well I hope you are right...</strong><hr></blockquote>

Not necessarily, but that's how I see that system working. I don't see a one hole player. I may be wrong of course but that's my interpretation of what I see on the pitch. I think going from a 4-4-2 to a 4-5-1 involves quite a tactical change that takes a little longer to adjust to than we might have hoped. The reason I think we are still adjusting is that last season we seemed to change at least one player every match, so the players are getting less match exposure to the new system than at first we may think.
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Not necessarily, but that's how I see that system working. I don't see a one hole player. I may be wrong of course but that's my interpretation of what I see on the pitch. I think going from a 4-4-2 to a 4-5-1 involves quite a tactical change that takes a little longer to adjust to than we might have hoped. The reason I think we are still adjusting is that last season we seemed to change at least one player every match, so the players are getting less match exposure to the new system than at first we may think.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Thats exactly my point Dans! I think we have the same worries. I dont think things have changed at all this season. Zag AWAY he played 4 4 2 but with Ole on the left for some reason. Chelsea AWAY he played 4 5 1 with three "hole" players, Sunderland AWAY he played 4 4 2 with Ole up front, and then Boro Home he played 4 5 1 with a half fit Scholes in the hole!!!!!! How can anyone adjust with this tinkering????
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Originally posted by nickm:
<strong>And we need to practise 4-4-1-1 now so we're ready for when we really need it later in the season in Europe. If not at home against Middlesborough in September, then when?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Away from home?
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Originally posted by sunny:
<strong>

Thats exactly my point Dans! I think we have the same worries. I dont think things have changed at all this season. Zag AWAY he played 4 4 2 but with Ole on the left for some reason. Chelsea AWAY he played 4 5 1 with three "hole" players, Sunderland AWAY he played 4 4 2 with Ole up front, and then Boro Home he played 4 5 1 with a half fit Scholes in the hole!!!!!! How can anyone adjust with this tinkering????</strong><hr></blockquote>

Fair dos, then I take your point. Sometimes I think he plays the 4-4-2 to keep Ole happy actually. If he played 4-5-1 every week you'd have to bench Ruud at some point and much as I think Ole is a great player I think Ruud is far better suited to playing a lone striker role than Ole is. I guess it remains to be seen whether he persists with the two systems. I suspect he will, but I don't think the problem will be the gelling of the strikers rather I think it will be the adaption of the midfield to a different system every other week.
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Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>

Fair dos, then I take your point. Sometimes I think he plays the 4-4-2 to keep Ole happy actually. If he palyed 4-5-1 every week you'd have to bench Ruud at some point and much as I think Ole is a great player I think Ruud is far better suited to playing a lone striker role than Ole is. I guess it remains to be seen whether he persists with the two systems. I suspect he will, but I don't think the problem will be the gelling of the strikers rather I think it will be the adaption of the midfield to a different system every other week.</strong><hr></blockquote>


True....Not the easiest thing for a team who has had so much success with a Pure 4 4 2 system which not only we as supporters like but which seems to have worked. This is where I touch Livvies point earlier. Maybe we just dont have the right players for the 4 5 1 system. SO guess some opportunity in January with the rare non cup tied players.
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I think Giggs' form is important. He doesn't seem to run at players as much as he has done in the past. With him encouraged to player the true wingers role, rather than relying on Silvestre I think we could add something to our attacking options. At present I see Giggs continually drifting infield rather than taking the full back on on the oustide. It all seems a bit cluttered in the middle as a result and the intricate one touch play on the edge of the area becomes difficult to pull off.
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>I think Giggs' form is important. He doesn't seem to run at players as much as he has done in the past. With him encouraged to player the true wingers role, rather than relying on Silvestre I think we could add something to our attacking options. At present I see Giggs continually drifting infield rather than taking the full back on on the oustide. It all seems a bit cluttered in the middle as a result and the intricate one touch play on the edge of the area becomes difficult to pull off.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I have ben noticing that. But to be fair last evening he did well. I think the defensive clangers of last season are also in everyones mind and the five midfielders are really keen to help out in the defense which is a good sign but it also takes the shape out of the midfield. ANyway RIo was great yesterday. I dont know whether you noticed the technical move he did at one point from Stocdales cross. In French it is called "aile de pigeon" or the Pigons wing. It is great to see him confident.
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Yeah I saw it. In English it's called getting the keeper out of trouble ;)
 
Originally posted by Dans:
<strong>Yeah I saw it. In English it's called getting the keeper out of trouble ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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We've always played 4-4-1-1, its just now we've lost a forward who can play that role. With no money seemingly to get that player, or it being better to wait and get the right one, we're making do with Scholes which effectively makes it 4-5-1. I think Forlan should be given a chance to play it. I think a point has been appearing in recent threads that our formation doesn't fit our players, or get the most out of them. Ruud needs a partner near him who can play him in. Giggs and Beckham are best played wide. Butt plays best deep, but so does Veron, leaving us without an attacking midfielder or who can charge forward with the ball playing one twos or through balls. Butt and Scholes in a 4-4-2 would work. Funnily enough, its worked very well in the past.
 
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