Fergie fxxk up the formation on day one

uranushk1

I'd Bellion if I said I were an optimist
Newbie
Joined
Nov 29, 2000
Messages
7,183
Location
fair forumer
I really didn't understand what's Fergie thinking. If we have drawn this match it was all his fault. Today we started Butt and Veron in midfield, pushing Keano forward to partner Giggs and Ruud in a horrible 4-3-3 formation. Giggs was anonymous in the middle, while Keano worked very hard and has got a lot of chances fell on him, he was simply not a striker and you'd hope if only those chances have fallen on Ole instead, how many goals should we have scored in the first half.... The Veron supporters may be "happy" to see he did a few very good passes in the first half. But in general he still didn't look like having any "synchronization" with other teammates. That mean, for a lot of time most of the teammates just didn't know what he wanted to do.

Only after we reverted to our "normal, proven" 4-4-2 formation with Becks crossing from right wing and Giggs dribbling at left wing, with 2 strikers up front and Scholes supporting them behind, did we start to look like "Manchester United" again. I hate to say it but it seems Fergie has learnt NOTHING from the failure last season. Please, fergie, please give back the real "Manchester United" to us and stop the silly formation game!
 
I agree with you 100%. 4-4-2 is the only way to go for Man Utd where we can play attractive free flowing attacking football.
 
I agree about the 4-4-2 but giggs never went dribbling down the wing like he used to when we went back to that formation he was like most of the squad to bsy checking his rolex watch ;)
 
You don't happen to think Fergie might have been trying to limit the danger of injuries by any chance? I mean - can you imagine if he'd started with both strikers and one had been hurt - where's the back-up? We have enough trouble with defenders out, we'd be completely knackered if we lost Ole or Ruud. It was only West Brom (no offence Baggies) so he probably thought the team he put out would do them. Not as it turned out but it's the first game FFS. Stop knocking Fergie you twat. We won in the end and that's what counts.
 
Originally posted by Red down under:
<strong>You don't happen to think Fergie might have been trying to limit the danger of injuries by any chance? I mean - can you imagine if he'd started with both strikers and one had been hurt - where's the back-up? We have enough trouble with defenders out, we'd be completely knackered if we lost Ole or Ruud. It was only West Brom (no offence Baggies) so he probably thought the team he put out would do them. Not as it turned out but it's the first game FFS. Stop knocking Fergie you twat. We won in the end and that's what counts.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If we have not enough backup up front, we should buy someone, rather than mixing up the formation in order to protect a player! You are just like saying that "I have a car, but I never drive it, because I afriad that if it crash I will not have another backup car"! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
Click to expand...
 
posted at another thread abt the 4-5-1 last nite .... I think it's complete crazy period !!! ... I am not one that is totally "against" 4-5-1 ... I believe at certain games we should consider that no problem ... but NOT like playing some lesser team at OT !!!!!! :eek:
 
Originally posted by Penny:
<strong>posted at another thread abt the 4-5-1 last nite .... I think it's complete crazy period !!! ... I am not one that is totally "against" 4-5-1 ... I believe at certain games we should consider that no problem ... but NOT like playing some lesser team at OT !!!!!! :eek: </strong><hr></blockquote>

If Butt and Keane score during the 1st half, will you think the system work?
Click to expand...
 
I just don like the guys keep "pumping" the ball at that situation ... There's only 1 guy up there so why bother ?? ( at the same time skipping the MASTERFUL midfield?? ) ...

The 2nd half of the 1st half the guys started to play short passing and sudden burst into the inner area and things started to get a bit better ... but the problem is - they guys just don't do that from the start ... only occasionally ... don understand it :confused:

Still - I think for the upcoming CL game where 2 goals is the minimum ... 4-4-2 should be the one we gonna go with at least from now till then ..
 
haha..at one point of the west Brom game, Fergie changed the tactic to 2-5-3!
 
Originally posted by pjaya:
<strong>

If Butt and Keane score during the 1st half, will you think the system work?</strong><hr></blockquote>

It is a meaningless question, the fact is that they haven't scored. And more important than scoring or not, it is the performance as a whole. We just didn't look like "Manchester United" in this formation. We looked like a mediocre PL team which just barely managed to beat an below average opponent at home.

I am not completely against 4-5-1. But my point is that it is not suitable to play this formation at home against such opponent.
Click to expand...
 
I think Fergie got the tactics spot on.

Wear out the over-running and defensive 5-man defence with our 5 man midfield. We did get the ball on target a few times and basically seldom lost possession.

When the other team cracks or gets tired, bring on Ole and play with 2 defenders.

I take my hat off the the master for getting his tactics totally spot on.

Although it was awful to watch, United keeping possession and taunting WBA to get the ball off them was great as we "punished" them for being so negative the entire game.
<img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" />
 
Originally posted by Marcus:
<strong>I think Fergie got the tactics spot on.

Wear out the over-running and defensive 5-man defence with our 5 man midfield. We did get the ball on target a few times and basically seldom lost possession.

When the other team cracks or gets tired, bring on Ole and play with 2 defenders.

I take my hat off the the master for getting his tactics totally spot on.

Although it was awful to watch, United keeping possession and taunting WBA to get the ball off them was great as we "punished" them for being so negative the entire game.
<img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

maybe we could try that against loonypool, but with Rion replacing blnac to handle owens pace!
Click to expand...
 
Remember all the crap results we had last season with 442?
Boro @ home for one as far as i can remember.
Things would probably have not gone much better with 442?
try and see the big picture, we played with 451 and got 3 points, had we played with 442 would we have gotten 4?
 
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Remember all the crap results we had last season with 442?
Boro @ home for one as far as i can remember.
Things would probably have not gone much better with 442?
try and see the big picture, we played with 451 and got 3 points, had we played with 442 would we have gotten 4?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We got the three points after reverting to 4-4-2.

And surely all the problems last year started with 4-5-1, otherwise why was there so much discussion about it. We didn't win all the games with that system any more than we did with 4-4-2.

But we need to be able to implement both imo.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Marcus:
<strong>I think Fergie got the tactics spot on.

Wear out the over-running and defensive 5-man defence with our 5 man midfield. We did get the ball on target a few times and basically seldom lost possession.

When the other team cracks or gets tired, bring on Ole and play with 2 defenders.

I take my hat off the the master for getting his tactics totally spot on.

Although it was awful to watch, United keeping possession and taunting WBA to get the ball off them was great as we "punished" them for being so negative the entire game.
<img src="graemlins/keano.gif" border="0" alt="[Keano]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

I think your comments are really amazing. You say just like Fergie knew everything and control everything before the match. But the fact is that Fergie was so desperate in the 2nd half he simply turned into 2-5-3 in the final quarter and gamble it as "either we win, or we lose". If WBA was playing with 11 men we might well got another diaster result.

Just starting from when did Manchester United need such "tactic" against a team as WBA at home? Remmember how we crash teams such as Sheffied Wednesday, Bradford, West Ham, Bronby etc. in the last few years? If it is United 1999 we'd have got at least four goals pass them! And now you said we need Fergie's "masterpiece tactic" in order to get one pass the ten men WBA at home!! The fact is that we were horrible in the first half. Fergie mess up the formation, Giggs was nearly invisible and Keano as striker lack the killer instinct to convert the chances he got. Only after Ole entered the field and Giggs got back to the left flank did we start to pouring all over their penalty area.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Remember all the crap results we had last season with 442?
Boro @ home for one as far as i can remember.
Things would probably have not gone much better with 442?
try and see the big picture, we played with 451 and got 3 points, had we played with 442 would we have gotten 4?</strong><hr></blockquote>

We only need 4-5-1 formation in difficult away matches, particularly in Europe. From last season's experience, we seldom got a good result if we played 4-5-1 in the league.
Click to expand...
 
lets play 2-5-3 the whole season and sees what happpens. this is very likely (as if) since we are running low on defenders. maybe we shld play 2-6-2 haha like that we can fit all six midfielders with scholes and veron attacking and butt and keane defending ... hahahahaha sorry got a bit crazy over here!!!
 
Fact of the matter is, this shows SAF has learned nothing from last season, when you lost several home games against the lesser teams because he was:

a) playing around with the tactics
b) fielding a below-par team
c) doing a combination of a) and b)

TRM.
 
Originally posted by pjaya:
<strong>

If Butt and Keane score during the 1st half, will you think the system work?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Agreed. Most of the post match reviews talk about missed chances not wrong formation........
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>Remember all the crap results we had last season with 442?
Boro @ home for one as far as i can remember.
Things would probably have not gone much better with 442?
try and see the big picture, we played with 451 and got 3 points, had we played with 442 would we have gotten 4?</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Boro's loss was an awful mistake by Blanc, not a result of tactics.

The big picture is we looked much more threatening and won when we switched to 4-4-2.
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
Boro's loss was an awful mistake by Blanc, not a result of tactics.
The big picture is we looked much more threatening and won when we switched to 4-4-2.</strong><hr></blockquote>


What the fuch are you laughing at?


From Redcafe archives:

Middlesbrough took the lead in the ninth minute. Benito Carbone robbed Veron just outside the United box and laid the ball across to Alen Boksic who steered it home inside Fabien Barthez's left-hand post.
<hr></blockquote>

So for starters it was a Veron mistake that caused the boro goal. Thats is however irrelevant, what is relevant is the fact that we played 442 and even more so than yesterday we looked stale and one dimensional.

We started with the following team.

----------Barthez ---------------

G Neville Blanc Johnsen Silvestre

Beckham -- Butt -- Veron -- Giggs

-------- Forlan --- Van Nistelrooy

ie 442. So how do you make out that we looked better after switching to 442?
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

So for starters it was a Veron mistake that caused the boro goal. Thats is however irrelevant, what is relevant is the fact that we played 442 and even more so than yesterday we looked stale and one dimensional.

We started with the following team.

----------Barthez ---------------

G Neville Blanc Johnsen Silvestre

Beckham -- Butt -- Veron -- Giggs

-------- Forlan --- Van Nistelrooy

ie 442. So how do you make out that we looked better after switching to 442?</strong><hr></blockquote>

I thought you were referring to the FA Cup game

I am laughing at you saying we are stale with 4-4-2.

Just from one game - anymore examples?

What is all this obsceneties from you? What the "fuch" is the matter with you? <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" />
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>The Veron supporters may be "happy" to see he did a few very good passes in the first half. </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

You mean the ones that zoomed out of play faster than he did?
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>
I thought you were referring to the FA Cup game
I am laughing at you saying we are stale with 4-4-2.
Just from one game - anymore examples?
What is all this obsceneties from you? What the "fuch" is the matter with you? <img src="graemlins/smirk.gif" border="0" alt="[Smirk]" /> </strong><hr></blockquote>

You thought i meant the boro away game?, Ok, we started with a weakened 4411 formation. We were 1 down when we changed to 442 only to let in another goal. So i still cant see how the change their changed anything :confused:

Newcastle away, we were 3:1 down when we took of Cole for Scholes, ie changing to a 4411 and immediatley went to 3:3 only for a late goal to sink us. So 1:3 with 442 & 1:2 with 4411, work it out.

Bolton at home, we started with Cole & Yorke, another 442 flop.

Liverpool away where we started with RVN & OGS

Chelsea at home RVN & Cole

West Ham @ Home Yorke & Solskjaer

Derby away OGS & RVN

Arsenal @ homeOgs & RVN

So in 4 of our 6 home games we lost @ home we started with a 442 formation.

In 7 of the 9 games we lost last season we started with a 442 formation.

Only in the Arsenal away & Liverpool @ home did we loose when we used a 4411 formation.


Would you agree that im 100% right?
Click to expand...
 
People emphasis far too much on numbers on what formation we play. It doesn't really matter if it's 4-4-2, 4-5-1, 4-1-3-1 etc, if there's a lack of movement, desire and determination, it won't work whatever, and vice-versa.
 
Originally posted by An Extremely Boring Man:
<strong>if there's a lack of movement, desire and determination, it won't work whatever, and vice-versa.</strong><hr></blockquote>

exactly, that has been the common denominator in all our crappy displays over the last 12 months, poor movement, less desire & less determination.
Click to expand...
 
Both formations have their faults and their good points. I personally like 442 when playing teams like West Brom as we have attacking class and dont clog up the midfield. If playing teams with a strong midfield, like Arsenal 451 is the way to go.
 
What's the point in arguing which is best??

There were bad results with both systems last year. There was also several occasions when we reverted to 4-4-2 and played a whole lot better. Maybe the other way round as well, tho I can't think of one off the top of my head.

It's stupid to say it should be one formation rather than the other.

It depends on the circumstances, the opposition etc. Yesterday, I would have preferred to see 4-4-2.

We need to master both.
 
Judging from the comments here and the various permutations regarding the various systems that can be adopted and when, I just wonder if Fergie is equally as confused !! If Saturday's lineup is anything to go by I would say Fergie is still uncertain as to how best to deploy his squad. Early days yes, but when seen in the context of last season, it doesn't augur well does it ? Let's hope he can get it right and soon.
 
How come there was so much controversy over the 4-5-1, or 4-4-1-1, if we did so well with it.

And there were definitely games when we switched to 4-4-2 and improved immediately.
 
movement,movement,movement and above all skill.

Only these 4 things bring you glory.

numbers don`t matter.
 
IMO, we can't get the goals with 4-5-1 formation and we should use 4-4-2 at home.
 
Originally posted by Murt:
<strong>

You thought i meant the boro away game?, Ok, we started with a weakened 4411 formation. We were 1 down when we changed to 442 only to let in another goal. So i still cant see how the change their changed anything :confused:

Newcastle away, we were 3:1 down when we took of Cole for Scholes, ie changing to a 4411 and immediatley went to 3:3 only for a late goal to sink us. So 1:3 with 442 & 1:2 with 4411, work it out.

Bolton at home, we started with Cole & Yorke, another 442 flop.

Liverpool away where we started with RVN & OGS

Chelsea at home RVN & Cole

West Ham @ Home Yorke & Solskjaer

Derby away OGS & RVN

Arsenal @ homeOgs & RVN

So in 4 of our 6 home games we lost @ home we started with a 442 formation.

In 7 of the 9 games we lost last season we started with a 442 formation.

Only in the Arsenal away & Liverpool @ home did we loose when we used a 4411 formation.


Would you agree that im 100% right?</strong><hr></blockquote>

Nice to see you being objective for a change ;)
So you are saying that we play better with 4-5-1 than 4-4-2?

Funny, from what I saw against WBA, we immediately looked more threatening when we brought in an extra striker
Click to expand...
 
Originally posted by lchk:
<strong>
Nice to see you being objective for a change ;)
So you are saying that we play better with 4-5-1 than 4-4-2?
Funny, from what I saw against WBA, we immediately looked more threatening when we brought in an extra striker</strong><hr></blockquote>

Im saying its not the system thats to blamb, if anything statistics (though im not a fan of em) show that 442 lost us the league last season.
Things didnt change a whole lot in the WBA game when we changed to 442, by the time we got the goal we had changed to 253.
You say we looked more "threatening", thats the whole idea of it, if the original doesnt work we have more options and mentally it gives a lift to the team to change to a more attacking style while putting pressure on the opposition.

To sum it all up, the formation has very little to do with it, its sluggish performances from too many players. We can carry 1, maybe two players and still play well but on Saturday their was a few too many poor individual performances, especially from our wide midfielders.
Click to expand...
 
Arsenal playing Birmingham yesterday were twenty times better than United were against West Brom. From the couple of games I've seen this season, United have not moved from where they were last season which is dissappointing to say the least. Compared to Arsenal, United looked stale and tired. Arsenal were fresh and had a lot of good movement and looked like they were enjoying themselves.

I know it's early days yet, but unless something dramatic happens I have the feeling that it is going to be a very long season.
 
Originally posted by BHManUNut:
<strong>Arsenal playing Birmingham yesterday were twenty times better than United were against West Brom. </strong><hr></blockquote>

so Arsenal played great against similar opposition and won 2:0, we played crap and won 1 nil.
Great news imo.
Click to expand...
 
sorry lads, just out of curiousity, didnt we win the game on saturday?
didnt we have a bucket load of chances?

yes to both questions

however i think fergie plays 5 in midfield to protect our inadequate full backs, both phil and silvestre are muck,
at the end of the day neither of them would get into liverpool or arsenals back four and thats the difference, we may have the most amazing midfield and a striker who is just unreal (not forlan :)
but if you look at our back 4 and keeper yesterday who do you think would get into either of our top two rivals teams?
 
The majority seem to be saying that Giggs and Beckham are indispensable in a 4-man midfield. I would agree that United function better with two nominal wide midfielders, but it really depends on what form the players are in.
For instance, Giggs has been playing appallingly in pre-season and now in the first two competitive games of the season. He looks lethargic, his touch is non-existent, and he doesn't stay out wide. He's putting a lot of pressure on Silvestre.
By contrast, even though he is not on top form yet, Beckham has been trying his heart out. We know he drits inside a lot, but he always give his right-back support (he has to when that goon Neville P is playing!) and would someone count the crosses that have been attempted by Giggs and Beckham in the first two games? I would guess that Giggs would hardly figure.
Veron is taking an undue amount of stick, and he shouldn't have been subbed on Saturday, when Giggs played shit. Giggs has that good run when he beat 3 defenders and...ran the ball out of touch! Typical of his game at the moment.
Personally, I think Veron and Butt is the more balanced central midfield pairing, but then everbody has their own view.
Finally, United lost 6 games at home last season. For those imbeciles who keep blaming Veron for all the ills of the world, let's have a look at those losses:

BOLTON: Wes Brown not heading ball clear, but fannying around trying to trap it on his thigh;
CHELSEA: Simply a poor performance, even if Veron did lose the ball for the 2nd goal;
WEST HAM: Poor performance;
BORO: Veron definitely responsible for goal, but do you remember Giggs' shot wide? Why does Giggs ALWAYS drag the ball wide?
LIVERPOOL: Veron was the best United player that night. United were just beaten by a sucker-punch of a goal.
ARSENAL: No one to blame, the title had effectively been lost by then.

So, Veron responsible for 1 of these 6 losses!
 
Originally posted by manusteve:
<strong>

So, Veron responsible for 1 of these 6 losses!</strong><hr></blockquote>

Peope didn't blame Veron personally.

Most of the time, they blamed the change in system to accommodate him.

And it was an alien system, Fergie did persevere with it, there was controversy over it, and there still is.

We seem to be divided into two camps. Those who remember 4-5-1 being a disaster and performances improving when we reverted to 4-4-2, and those who remember it completely differently.
Click to expand...
 
We just need to be patient and wait for the whole team to play well.

Last season's best performance was away to Deportivo, played with a 4-5-1! United dominated and controlled the whole match.

More cluse I reckon on Friday, esp. if Rio plays.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.