Books Fantasy Reads

DMacgraw said:
As I have mentioned a few times in the last few pages, the Malazan world has tremendous breadth over space and time, but the presentation makes it nearly incomprehensible. For the most part, it be will be greatly enjoyed only by readers whose tastes run to figuring out jigsaw puzzles. If you don't get turned on by making detailed notes as you go along and figuring out connections between characters and events as they happen throughout the series, then Malazan is not for you.

That said, you may treat Book 2 almost as a stand-alone book. It follows three main story lines: the travails of Felisin Paran (Ganoes Paran's baby sister), who is sentenced to the labour mines (along with other aristocrats, intellectuals, priests, and other 'undesirables') by the Empress' new Adjunct, Tavore Paran (her older sister); the wanderings of two powered beings, Mappo and Icarium, the latter being perhaps the most powerful being in the Malazan world, who is on a quest to recover his lost memories, and the former tagging along as his friend and 'minder'; and, the Chain of Dogs, about the attempt by a military garrison, led by their war-chief Coltaine, to convey to safety a city worth of civilians, through an entire continent in revolt against the empire. What makes Book 2 worth reading is the Chain of dogs, a story that is, in my humble opinion, unique in fantasy literature. If you manage to reach the end of the book, you'll know why.
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I dont know about it being a jigsaw puzzle. I enjoyed it for fairly basic storytelling reasons personally - good characters, good dialogue and an interesting set up.
The introduction is tough, the first paragraph of the first book is about tattersail reading from the deck of dragons as far as i remember.
So straight off the bat its dropping its entire system of magic, gods, churches and belief structures in your lap,
Quickly followed by 2 or 3 races (tiste andii and t'lann imass) and a fairly robust form of governance attached to the malazan empire.

Some books cheat in a way and have the story told from the PoV of a child and introduce everything piece by piece over the course of a book or so.
Malazan doesn't really. It just throws you in.
I found by the end of the first book i had somewhat of a grasp on the world though, which was all i needed to follow the different stories being told.
I didn't think there was anything too fancy introduced after the first book. It set it stall out pretty early and is fairly consistent with that for me.
New places, new characters but nothing too foreign to what you'd know by that point.

I found a lot of the better stories were fairly grounded anyway. The Chain of Dogs is a good example.
Theres nothing too complicated about the set up, you've covered it pretty well in a sentence or two
Mappo and Icarium is a nice story too, I think it would probably work regardless of the structure surrounding them.

Sometimes it goes up its own bottom and 4 or so books on i still haven't the slightest clue what Heboric's crazy, space, acid trip with the otaral statues is about
but it was crazy enough that i can just go with it and not put too much thought into it. I presume an explanation will come at some point.
 
Jigsaw puzzles is not a good analogy. Jigsaw puzzles make sense, however difficult they may be. Malazan makes no sense whatsoever at times. It's just a series of random shit happening across a 1000 pages. This review kinda sums up Malazan for me:

I have nothing against puzzles, but the way Erikson is doing it feels like he's taking a big bag of 50 different 5 000 piece jigsaw puzzles mixed with Legos and model ship parts for good measure then put them in 10 different chests that only open if you manage to solve quantum physics problems printed on them.

It just feels like busy work and not fun.
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The Bloody-Nine said:
Been on my list for a while but I read an off putting review.

Worth a go?
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Everyone seems to love it, but I hated it. The start is pretty good until it becomes a long essay on how fantastic the protagonist is.

I couldn't really get into Farseer either though, but not sure I really gave it much of a chance as I tried reading it after The First Law trilogy and it felt a bit wishy washy. Might try it again though after The Lies of Locke Lamora.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Everyone seems to love it, but I hated it. The start is pretty good until it becomes a long essay on how fantastic the protagonist is.

I couldn't really get into Farseer either though, but not sure I really gave it much of a chance as I tried reading it after The First Law trilogy and it felt a bit wishy washy. Might try it again though after The Lies of Locke Lamora.
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My favourite fantasy books are the First Law series so I know exactly what you mean about the Farseer books. Very different and took some getting used to. I like berserkers, copious amounts of swearing and extreme violence. Not herbs and tending animals.
 
The Bloody-Nine said:
I really can't imagine having to make detailed f*cking notes in order to enjoy a book.
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The closest I've come to it is with Romance of the Three Kingdoms where the notes had already been added by other online readers.
Malazan does not appeal to me in the slightest either.
 
It doesn't appeal to me, either, but I am a little intrigued by it. I know exactly what would happen, though. I'd buy them, get lost and give up. Then regret buying the thing in the first place.
 
The Bloody-Nine said:
My favourite fantasy books are the First Law series so I know exactly what you mean about the Farseer books. Very different and took some getting used to. I like berserkers, copious amounts of swearing and extreme violence. Not herbs and tending animals.
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The herbs and animals didn't bother me as much as people called things like Verity. I dunno it all just felt very clean cut after Abercrombie, but I'll give it another go at some point. It's still on my list I just couldn't get into it at the time.
 
The reason I described the series as a jigsaw puzzle is that as you go farther and farther in the series you do find that you are making connections that throw light on events that made no sense to you earlier in the series; you start seeing more and more of the big picture the farther you go into the series. But getting to that understanding of the big picture is contingent on keeping on top of things (such as making notes) as they happen throughout the series. Those readers who don't get their reading enjoyment from treating it like a textbook (me included) get fed up with the seemingly random incomprehensible events and usually give up.
 
I finished The Lies of Lock Lamora and very much enjoyed it despite it not being the kind of setting I usually like. It was a fun read and I'll definitely read the sequels, although going to leave it a while as I've a tendency to binge read and then not remember which book things happened in.
 
DMacgraw said:
The reason I described the series as a jigsaw puzzle is that as you go farther and farther in the series you do find that you are making connections that throw light on events that made no sense to you earlier in the series; you start seeing more and more of the big picture the farther you go into the series. But getting to that understanding of the big picture is contingent on keeping on top of things (such as making notes) as they happen throughout the series. Those readers who don't get their reading enjoyment from treating it like a textbook (me included) get fed up with the seemingly random incomprehensible events and usually give up.
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I disagree with the analogy as a jigsaw puzzle implies that things start falling into place as you go along. I'm 52% (according to my Kindle) through book 10, the final book, and it still hasn't happened to me. I've read plenty of similar complaints to conclude I'm not unique in that at all.

The biggest issue I have with Malazan and Erikson's style is the fact that he's constantly hinting at mysteries and epic revelations that only the writer and presumably repeat readers understand. On numerous occasions, characters are moved to tears because of some eye-opening revelations of massive significance. As a reader however, you're sitting there thinking you don't have a fecking clue about what is happening, why it is happening, who is behind it all and what the implications are. Over and over again.

For example at the end of book 8, a major character does something. Those that have read it will know who. What he does and why he does it? Beats me. It's supposed to be a cataclysmic event, possible one of the most important moments in the entire series and indeed in the entire Malazan universe. But when I look back at it, my only reactions is a shrug of my shoulders and an "okay then". I don't see what difference it made. Am I just thick? Is it all going to come together in the final 5% of the final book? Is it going to remain a mystery forever? I've sort of stopped caring.

For a long time now I've had this feeling that it's literally impossible to understand anything about the Malazan universe without rereading the entire thing. Problem is, when you've finished 11,000+ pages of seemingly random madness, your first instinct isn't going to be to return to page 1. It's going to be one of relief that the ordeal is over and done with. I'm sure as hell looking forward to that final page because right now it's an epic struggle for me. I've already come to terms with the fact I'll never manage to grasp the Malazan series.

Does all of this make for good writing, or a good fantasy? Could I reccommend this to anyone? I've got a good idea of what my answer would be to that.

Oh and I should add that I didn't have any of these frustration up to and including book 6 (more or less). Everything up to that point was fantastic. The true madness starts after that, but seeing as every book at that point exceeds 1200 pages, there's a lot of it.
 
Finished the second book of Malazan, and nope, I didn't like it. I don't give a shit for neither the characters nor the events.

Book 3 is gonna be make or break for me.
 
For people who are more patient Malazan is probably very rewarding. But for me if you've to read something two or three to enjoy it and not because you're enjoying it then the author is not doing his job properly.
 
You don't have to read Malazan twice or thrice to understand it, it doesn't require of the reader to do that. People who like to "devour" books and can read 200-300 pages of literature whenever they sit down with a book in their hands, although, might have a problem with this particular series. Not because it has more depth than other books, or anything like that, but because of the way it's written.

Erikson prose is what it is, his way of inserting a tone of realism in an fantasy world is by the limited knowledge his characters' PoVs provide. The true depth of his world will never be fully explored because, in his mind, this is simply not a possibility. In a similar way we don't know much about large parts of our own world and most of our information about it is filtered through our own cultural imprints which often lead to misconceptions and misunderstandings. And even if we do get around these there will always be more than one versions of the truth we'l hear from others.

As one of my friends has said Malazan feels like waking up, as a Westerner, in the outskirts of a small town in China at a time when Beijin is preparing for war with somebody. You will try to figure out the religion, the language, the people's view of the world, you'll try to find out what's going on but there's only a certain amount of knowledge you'll be able to obtain.

If you make your peace with that, you will enjoy what Malazan has to offer. If you come to terms with the fact that not only you won't ever be in the driver's seat but you'll have to be content with the passenger's seat once in a while instead of a place at the back of the bus, that is.

As for when to stop the series and not bother with it for some time (or never again), i'd say Memories of Ice is a good indication. The emotional impact this had on my 20 yo self back in the day was tremendous.
 
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Ainu said:
For example at the end of book 8, a major character does something. Those that have read it will know who. What he does and why he does it? Beats me. It's supposed to be a cataclysmic event, possible one of the most important moments in the entire series and indeed in the entire Malazan universe. But when I look back at it, my only reactions is a shrug of my shoulders and an "okay then". I don't see what difference it made. Am I just thick? Is it all going to come together in the final 5% of the final book? Is it going to remain a mystery forever? I've sort of stopped caring.
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:eek: That something in Book 8 is probably one of the best segments I've ever read in fantasy.

But yes, you are right. It has less significance to the Malazan story line. But it serves as a end to events that are later outlined in Kharkanas trilogy. Like getting the answer before even know that there is a question. Can understand the frustration :lol:
 
@mariner85
To your reply to Revan on the fantasy read page.

I'm on reread in the order you suggested and I really don't think you can consider it as 1/2/3 stories.
It's a saga of the malalzan empire with a main story and many shorter stories revolving around the main story.
God's carrying out their schemes as viewed by the humans, but viewed by the malazans and their meddling or some such.
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Not all events directly influence the main story. See my post above on Book 8. You have standalone events, parts of other significant events in the same world.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
:eek: That something in Book 8 is probably one of the best segments I've ever read in fantasy.

But yes, you are right. It has less significance to the Malazan story line. But it serves as a end to events that are later outlined in Kharkanas trilogy. Like getting the answer before even know that there is a question. Can understand the frustration :lol:
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Perhaps the Kharkanas trilogy is essential reading that case, because I couldn't care less about the Kharkanas storylines in Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God (so far). It sort of comes out of nowhere and turns into a major plot in these books. This is where his story telling really fell apart for me, and I guess it started pretty much in book 8 with the Black Coral plot thread. I'd become very invested in the Malazan and Letherii story lines, while the Tiste Andii left me cold.

It's not all bad though, book 3 was one of the greatest fantasy books I've ever read, with its ending probably the best segment in fantasy. Karsa Orlong in book 4 and the Letherii and Tiste Edur in book 5 were fantastic as well. These three are my favourites I think, Erikson was really on a roll here. It's the last 3-4 books that ruin it for me.
 
Im in the middle of reading book 8 so am just blanking a lot of the posts atm.
Definitely feel the books have gotten weaker since Midnight Tides though. May be an element of burnout too though.
 
The fact is, no fantasy series brings out the extremes in polarizing opinions that Malazan does. There are some fantasy readers who consider Malazan to be the apex, the ultimate, the best thing thing ever in fantasy writing, as in this post:

Edgar Allan Pillow said:
My list would be something like below. Made it in buckets rather than a straight list as I can't hoose to rank between them.

The Pinnacle of Fantasy

Malazan Book of the Fallen

Rated Awesome:

Wheel of Time
A song of Ice and Fire
Lord of the Rings
.
.
.
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On the other hand, there are many more fantasy readers who think the series is mostly crap, as in this post:
Nighteyes said:
Here's what you need to know about the average Malazan book:
  • 30% of the book will be full of gibberish. Can be safely ignored/skimmed without missing anything. This usually consists of random people discussing the meaning of life and death.
  • 30% of the book will be relatively (to the rest of the book) easy to understand and follow.
  • 30% of the book will consist of random shit happening with no logic or rhyme. The canon explanation for this "Power attracts power" but in reality this is all deus ex machina. There's zero explanation for any of it and you have to take it for it is.
  • 10% will be the climax which is usually decent. However, the climax may or may not have anything to with the previous 90% of the book
    .
    .
    .
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I have tried to explain in several posts why there is such a divergence of opinion about the series. Briefly, Malazan is not for everybody. Most readers will find a large part of it incomprehensible random gibberish. However, some readers, those who who enjoy connecting seemingly isolated pieces of information, and who are willing to put in the work to identify the pieces of the puzzle as they go along, will maybe see the big picture the author is trying to present, and think it is the greatest fantasy series ever. Hopefully, this explanation will allow fantasy readers who have not yet tried Malazan to decide whether it is for them or not, before they put in the time.
 
Ainu said:
Perhaps the Kharkanas trilogy is essential reading that case, because I couldn't care less about the Kharkanas storylines in Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God (so far). It sort of comes out of nowhere and turns into a major plot in these books. This is where his story telling really fell apart for me, and I guess it started pretty much in book 8 with the Black Coral plot thread. I'd become very invested in the Malazan and Letherii story lines, while the Tiste Andii left me cold.

It's not all bad though, book 3 was one of the greatest fantasy books I've ever read, with its ending probably the best segment in fantasy. Karsa Orlong in book 4 and the Letherii and Tiste Edur in book 5 were fantastic as well. These three are my favourites I think, Erikson was really on a roll here. It's the last 3-4 books that ruin it for me.
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You and I have almost identical sentiments about the series, except that I didn't like Karsa orlong as much as you did. I also think Memories of Ice is one of the greatest fantasy books, and I didn't much care for the direction the series took in the last 3 books, as I've stated in previous posts.
I lost interest when the series turned from being about the Malazan Empire to being about the origins of the Tiste Andii. I have the Kharkanas trilogy on my ereader, but haven't bothered to read it.
 
Ainu said:
Perhaps the Kharkanas trilogy is essential reading that case, because I couldn't care less about the Kharkanas storylines in Dust of Dreams and The Crippled God (so far). It sort of comes out of nowhere and turns into a major plot in these books. This is where his story telling really fell apart for me, and I guess it started pretty much in book 8 with the Black Coral plot thread. I'd become very invested in the Malazan and Letherii story lines, while the Tiste Andii left me cold.

It's not all bad though, book 3 was one of the greatest fantasy books I've ever read, with its ending probably the best segment in fantasy. Karsa Orlong in book 4 and the Letherii and Tiste Edur in book 5 were fantastic as well. These three are my favourites I think, Erikson was really on a roll here. It's the last 3-4 books that ruin it for me.
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I love TtH for the ending though it's relevance can be flaky. You don't have to readh kharkanas as despite more backstory, there still is 1 book (and potentially more missing chunks) yet to come, no one know how much will be revealed. I like it as the trilogy drops more hints on the "ascendants" thoughts of K'rul, Hood etc who play key roles in the rest of novels.

The Paths to Ascendancy trilogy however is far more intriguing as there's almost nothing on backstory of Emperor and Dancer in main books. I can't wait for more of this.
 
Art Vandelay said:
Everyone seems to love it, but I hated it. The start is pretty good until it becomes a long essay on how fantastic the protagonist is.
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True, the second book is full of that, but doesn't actually advance the main plot. I would even say that after two novels out of the supposed three, we do not really know what the main plot - stuff involving the Chandrian, hinted at in the ominous opening and ending bits, mostly - actually is.
 
GhastlyHun said:
True, the second book is full of that, but doesn't actually advance the main plot. I would even say that after two novels out of the supposed three, we do not really know what the main plot - stuff involving the Chandrian, hinted at in the ominous opening and ending bits, mostly - actually is.
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I loved the first two books, but the main plot has moved forward so little its hard to imagine it could be finished in one more book.
 
Unmutual said:
I loved the first two books, but the main plot has moved forward so little its hard to imagine it could be finished in one more book.
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Yeah, unless there's a significant change in his pacing, which I can't see happening. It could well be one of the reasons why there is such a delay in the third booking being released.
 
Right, I am admitting defeat with the Farseer trilogy. Halfway through the second and it's boring the piss out of me. Nothing is happening and I have no motivation to continue.

Sorry fans, it's not for me.
 
I picked up book one in both Kingkiller and The Crimson Empire yesterday, but I'll take a look. Cheers.
 
DMacgraw said:
If fast-paced action is more to your taste then you might check out the Codex Alera and Dresden Files by Jim Butcher, or at even higher level, the webfiction Worm.
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I just read the first two Dresden books over my hols. Great stuff, lots of fun.
 
Eurgh I'm halfway through WoT book 4 and I'm starting to remember one of the reasons I'm yet to complete this series- the stupid David Schwimmer and Jennifer Anniston star in Chasing Elayney, teen romance 'does he, doesn't he' bullshit. 'Don't misunderstandings between boys and girls just lead to the craziest mishaps!'. I don't care, Robert. Shut up.

The world's ending, dark forces are butchering hundreds all around you, yet you're all plotting with your little coven how to She's All That your friend so that she can date 'cute but likely to go mad and destroy the world boy#1', played by Freddie Prinze Jnr. I'm beginning to side with the Dark One here. Kill them all, Ba'alzamon.
 
I didn't finish WoT, either. Made it somewhere in the region of book 7-9, got bored to tears and wiki'd the ending. I'm glad I did.
 
Just finished reading the Manifest Delusions books "Beyond Redemption" and "The Mirrors Truth" by Michael R Fletcher.

These Grimdark novels are set in a world where the the delusions of the insane manifest as reality.
As their insanity deepens, the power of their delusions grow until ultimately, at the point they are almost god-like, they self destruct (spectacularly) or are destroyed/replaced by splinters of their own personality.
The sane are incidental/sheep/fodder/slaves for consumption by the all powerful insane.

This is a book where every major character is a combination of obscene, disgusting and horrific - there are no redeeming qualities. Each and every one of them are utter shitebags.

The writing style focuses on these characters' descent into madness and completely captures the essence of spiralling insanity; it sucked me in and left me feeling exhausted and dirty.
There's no real hero here, no-one you can get behind, apart from one character called Bedekt, who has a list of things he won't do, which seems to primarily about not killing children and not raping women.
And he's the good guy!

Hard work this one, not in the sense of getting your head around massive world building like Erikson's Malazan series, more the subject matter and the sheer relentless nastiness of it.
Makes Thomas Covenant look like a sweet boy who had a bad day at the office.

One thing that irritated me was the authors use of really long German words like "geisteskranken" to label/define castes of the insane.
Prob just me but I found them hard to pronounce and that annoyed me.

That said, I "enjoyed" (if that's the right word) reading these books and will definitely buy the 3rd book when it's published.
If you like Joe Abercrombie/Glen Cook you might want to take a look at.
 
Doesn't sound like anything Cook has done. Better fits Abercrombie - I found most of the characters in the First Law unlikable.
 
DMacgraw said:
Doesn't sound like anything Cook has done. Better fits Abercrombie - I found most of the characters in the First Law unlikable.
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I think in terms of the grittiness of the writing style and general storytelling it does but yeah, more like Abercrombie in terms of the characters.
Either way, I thought these were good books and well worth a read.
 
I don't think I can finish the WoT series. Book 4 is annoying me immensely. The women are just horrible characters. I'm at the stage where Perrin is rushing to return home to save his family, but Faile is refusing to let him have Loial's help unless he begs her. Thom is offering his service to Nynaeve and is prepared to travel with them to Tanchico, despite not wanting to yet Nynaeve won't let him do her this favour unless he promises to do as he's told. Rand is the Dragon Reborn, a legend from history, with the fate of the world on his shoulders, yet Egwene and Elayne keep getting annoyed at him for not playing their stupid little dating games.

Maybe the women get better, I can't remember, but book 4 is fast becoming unreadable for me because of them and the fact that they're central throughout the whole book. I so wanted to enjoy this series and finish it, but I think that's never going to happen now.

I'm going to try the Grim Company instead.
 
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