Yeah that is exactly what I meant, you are putting pressure on your defenders to win each and ever 1v1 situation, and they are against a highly skilled attack. That is without factoring in that 3v4 would be dangerous in any situation, it's not hoofball I am playing, it's an attack where the ball is moved quickly the attacking players, and brought forward. It's not just solo runs but a combination of a trident, out of which two share a telepathic understanding. Between them they can bypass a defender without even taking him on, with no one behind him to cover. And as I said I don't expect Deschamps to win the majority of 1v1s with all due respect, which makes it even better for me. And after that you are basically expecting the last three defenders to win each and every 1v1 in the game, when facing against three top quality players at the same time. Saying it's risky is an understatement, can see it resulting in goals.
Fantasy draft, SF2, Aldo Vs Annah
- Thread starter Chesterlestreet
- Start date
Deschamps is not set out to win 1 vs 1's here, like I said Platini is a brilliant player and a brilliant dribbler - committing to steal the ball from him is as likely as Koeman/Guardiola/Montero stealing the ball from Maradona once he has it. At that point it is about damage limitation the best way you can.
Which against Platini is just staying on the right side of him, forcing him to use one of the few abilities he didn't possess which was pace and acceleration. He will be forced to stay put and try to find other options instead. Then there are just Boniek and Ronaldo to worry about, which should be something Baresi, Vierchowod and Brehme/Zanetti would do well. If Platini doesn't find them instantly I will be regaining my organized defense - in which case your players and set up are far from optimal.
On the other hand when I counter I will have Maradona with Klinsmann inside of the box occupying the two CB's, meaning any time Maradona makes it past Guardiola I will be very likely to score. On the outside I have Conti and Enrique making runs, and in a worst case scenario of me not creating something instantly I still have a near perfect organized offense.
Every single player in my team is great on the ball, the ball will move between my players extremely quick and every player has the ability to find a through-ball. There is no side, or player who won't be an absolute threat with their offensive abilities, even Vierchowod and Baresi has the ball playing abilities to win this match on their own with a beautiful pass through the middle to Maradona or out wide to Conti/Enrique behind the defense.
Irwin against Conti who has support from Zanetti is a match-up that would lead to something for me more often than Irwin would win the ball back there. Brehme and Enrique on the other side against Bossis is the same manner, I have a clear advantage out wide and any time I choose to pass it there I have a really good route to goal.
I am not trying to portray myself as never conceding, I can certainly see Aldo score here - but my offense has way more levels and depth in terms of finding a way to goal. I have basically all boxes ticked for finding my way to goal.
My routes to goal:
1. Conti dribbling past/finding a way past Irwin with the support of Zanetti.
2. Enrique and Brehme dribbling past/finding a way past Irwin.
3. Maradona receieving the ball literally anywhere outside of the box and challenging his defenders with dribbling runs.
4. Maradona requiring more men to mark him than Aldo can afford - it opens up space for Conti/Enrique/Klinsmann or even Brehme/Zanetti to bomb towards goal in a great opportunity.
5. Counters with Maradona, Klinsmann and Conti against Koeman-Guardiola and Montero(and one of his full-backs)
Which against Platini is just staying on the right side of him, forcing him to use one of the few abilities he didn't possess which was pace and acceleration. He will be forced to stay put and try to find other options instead. Then there are just Boniek and Ronaldo to worry about, which should be something Baresi, Vierchowod and Brehme/Zanetti would do well. If Platini doesn't find them instantly I will be regaining my organized defense - in which case your players and set up are far from optimal.
On the other hand when I counter I will have Maradona with Klinsmann inside of the box occupying the two CB's, meaning any time Maradona makes it past Guardiola I will be very likely to score. On the outside I have Conti and Enrique making runs, and in a worst case scenario of me not creating something instantly I still have a near perfect organized offense.
Every single player in my team is great on the ball, the ball will move between my players extremely quick and every player has the ability to find a through-ball. There is no side, or player who won't be an absolute threat with their offensive abilities, even Vierchowod and Baresi has the ball playing abilities to win this match on their own with a beautiful pass through the middle to Maradona or out wide to Conti/Enrique behind the defense.
Irwin against Conti who has support from Zanetti is a match-up that would lead to something for me more often than Irwin would win the ball back there. Brehme and Enrique on the other side against Bossis is the same manner, I have a clear advantage out wide and any time I choose to pass it there I have a really good route to goal.
I am not trying to portray myself as never conceding, I can certainly see Aldo score here - but my offense has way more levels and depth in terms of finding a way to goal. I have basically all boxes ticked for finding my way to goal.
My routes to goal:
1. Conti dribbling past/finding a way past Irwin with the support of Zanetti.
2. Enrique and Brehme dribbling past/finding a way past Irwin.
3. Maradona receieving the ball literally anywhere outside of the box and challenging his defenders with dribbling runs.
4. Maradona requiring more men to mark him than Aldo can afford - it opens up space for Conti/Enrique/Klinsmann or even Brehme/Zanetti to bomb towards goal in a great opportunity.
5. Counters with Maradona, Klinsmann and Conti against Koeman-Guardiola and Montero(and one of his full-backs)
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Oh just one last point ( I think) is once the defensive midfield is bypassed which could be a regular occurance and with the defense backtracking not to let any space behind them, all three of them have a great long shot. And long here is at max 20 yards. And all three have great shooting instincts. So there you go, that's another route.
I'm sorry but that's not what I said in the OP. My fullbacks are not functioning like yours at all. Bossis would often become a CB, a role in which he was brilliant, to make it a three man wall with Montero completely comfortable as a lateral CB himself with the three CMs protecting them. The only attacking intent would come from Irwin, and he has Lerby easily covering that side. And I don't remember many games, if any, where Irwin was constantly dribbled past by a winger. My fullbacks are not fancy names like yours but they specialize in consistency and reliability.
You still have the same amount of players as me to be beat on the counter, nearly all sides has three players in the defensive line in the offense and yours as well. Even a Catenaccio had three defenders staying back to cover for a counter. My point is that my counter-threat is nearly as big as yours and my defenders are some levels ahead of yours in terms of handling what they are up against. You have a better long range game and my medium/short range game is as superior to yours as your long ranged one is to mine. You can counter with short passes like Atletico has proven all season and Effenberg still has the range of passing to offer long range accuracy here, even my defensive line and Deschamps has better long-ball passing than Atletico's players, who attack through long balls at times.
Deschamps is better defensively than Guardiola, Baresi and Vierchowod are a lot better defensively than Montero/Koeman and Zanetti/Brehme are better than Bossis defensively.
Deschamps is better defensively than Guardiola, Baresi and Vierchowod are a lot better defensively than Montero/Koeman and Zanetti/Brehme are better than Bossis defensively.
Alright mate, I don't think the X>Y adds anything to the discussion so won't get into that. Cristiano is also better than Conto or Lucho, but it's meaningless to mention that.
I haven't even gone into who scores more or less (it's quite clearly a high-scoring game).The main difference is how the game shapes up early on, you guys focused so much on Maradona you made the gamethread about Maradona, that's never a good thing!
Here there was a mixture of Aldo focusing on his own strengths and Annah managing to make it all about himself with his formation change, how it would work, the 2v1s on the flanks... and the elephant in the room goes under the radar. Gio knows exactly what I'm talking about, he once had Platini, Xavi, Moreno and Rivaldo but him calling Nordahl "Vieri on steroids" made the first half of the game all about one of his least important players and the discussion ended up centered on how good or not was Christian Vieri, a player who wasn't even on the pitch!
The X>Y discussion is about the defensive unit our sides are countering and attacking against here. My defensive unit is better than yours and quite substantially so. I don't have any dislike for how your player would interact with each other - they fit each other well but they won't be as difficult to cut through as Baresi-Vierchowod-Zanetti and Deschamps.
I think the passing quality of my team will be absolutely brilliant to watch, quick passes around the team with extremely dangerous penetration passes being a threat from any player with the ball. Aldo has a great long range game, but my short range is absolutely world-class as well and you can counter-attack effectively without needing a deep lying playmaker on the pitch.
Please stop talking about this. It's mental. That Welbeck role was a device by a team clearly on the backfoot for sustained periods of a game, that's not at all how your game would shape up. It's just a crazy idea which frames the game in a way it wouldn't at all be played.
Voted for annah, earlier was going to explain why but never got the time. I believe he is playing luis enrique perfectly here when defending he can easily tuck in, allowing deschamps to drop deep and making that middle extremely solid. Brehme on the outside can easily run a wing by himself so wont lose a lot in attack anyway.
If enrique does go wide, then you have brehme and him overloading that flank with multiple options. Either pass it to maradona or cross it for klinsmann. I prefer this version of Annah's side as its a lot more attacking and give maradona more options than what he had previously. Think he will make a real impact with his passing here.
Aldo midfield while is good defensively, it doesnt really add a lot to the attack which means the pressure is on platini/boniek and ronaldo to create and score against one of the best defensive unit in the draft. Ronaldo is up against zanetti(Giggs described him as his toughest opponent) out wide and baresi/vierchowed on the inside. He will be a threat on the counter attack but I can see annah edging this on account of having a vastly superior defense and more variety in attack.
If enrique does go wide, then you have brehme and him overloading that flank with multiple options. Either pass it to maradona or cross it for klinsmann. I prefer this version of Annah's side as its a lot more attacking and give maradona more options than what he had previously. Think he will make a real impact with his passing here.
Aldo midfield while is good defensively, it doesnt really add a lot to the attack which means the pressure is on platini/boniek and ronaldo to create and score against one of the best defensive unit in the draft. Ronaldo is up against zanetti(Giggs described him as his toughest opponent) out wide and baresi/vierchowed on the inside. He will be a threat on the counter attack but I can see annah edging this on account of having a vastly superior defense and more variety in attack.
Again, focusing on the wrong things mate. Koeman is quite clearly a better counter starter than Baresi and it doesn't really matter at all because you are not a side relying almost exclusively on counters, you have the side that dominates and controls much of the game. The point of Baresi is his defensive mastership and how well he will lead that great defensive line of yours, not how good a counter starter he is relative to Koeman.
You bark up too many trees and invariably end up having the discussion centred around the wrong ones you bark on!
Cheers mate, it is the points I am trying to get across as well.
Tough but gone for Aldo here - I just think he has used his players perfectly. The team makes sense, it's coherent from back to front and the threat of Platini feeding Ronaldo/Boniek just screams goals. At the back, Koeman and Guardiola suit the style of play most suited to the attackers - two of the best longrange passers feeding two of the best counter attacking forwards.
I don't think it's the same for Annah's side - Klinsmann on Guardiola seems like a tactical blunder to me and I don't think the side has the same coherence.
I don't think it's the same for Annah's side - Klinsmann on Guardiola seems like a tactical blunder to me and I don't think the side has the same coherence.
Interesting. That is exactly what I expect Lucho to do and do well, but I expect him to start from midfield and occasionally support Brehme as opposed to start as a winger and occasionally support the midfield. As you say "if Enrique does go wide", which isn't something I would depict as starting out wide. All that said, I would trust Lucho to feck the tactics sheet and focus on operating where the team most needs him.
I think thats more to do with voters preferring asymmetrical formations, if he had him in the middle then some would have voted against him for having brehme alone against boniek/bossis.
I did the same in the last draft with rooney, was always playing him as a SS but in the pic had him as an AM(and deep at that) so my midfield appeared more solid.
@Chesterlestreet Can you remove the part about Klinsmann on Guardiola, I am changing his defensive job to be on the CB's instead, which will mean especially Koeman.
Yup, I've seen how it goes for people with assymetrical formations and I've rarely seen it work.
Enrique's role is what I described earlier, to keep balance in the side here. He has the flexibility to move out wide in one situation to move down to cover for Effenberg if he finds space to burst in to and so forth. When Maradona gets the ball he can use his ability to find space for runs etc etc.
Enrique will make sure the team keeps its shape, by using his best traits - his flexibility of having played everything from full-back, DM, CM, AM to winger.
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He doesn't have to cover for Effenberg. He has to cover for the fact Deschamps is constantly on Platini. That's my bigggest gripe with it, that since Deschamps is clearly not "in line" with Effenberg, but deeper, and the reinforcement would come (and actually stay most of the game) from the left, why on earth is Effeneberg starting in the left CM role?
Effenberg quite clearly must be positioned on the right and playing from there all game long, while Lucho in practice permanently "covers" Deschamps and plays off the left. If you don't want to be asymmetric I get it, but get your CMs the right way around at least.
I won two games in this draft, both had assymetrical formations.
As long as you explain how it works, I don't think it creates an issue.
anto has helped Annah more than once in the game to sort out his tactics, in return he should vote for me to balance things out.
So close. yet so far.
anto has helped Annah more than once in the game to sort out his tactics, in return he should vote for me to balance things out.
To be honest, at this stage the game has almost panned out. That was an eyesore from the very first minute and I can't for the life of me understand how no one gave two shits about it.
For the record, based on the teams before the game I expected a vibrant fun game. Both sides have a lot going for them going forward and the defences are competent enough, even when one evidently is better. I did however expect only one winner. Let me put it this way: scoring first was pretty much 50-50, but in the 50% where Annah scores first he can shut up shop, sit tight and see the game out rather comfortably with the threat he has on the break. Then in the other 50% where you score first I can't see you soaking up that much pressure as comfortably, I would say then it would be 70-30 to you out of having scored first, but that 30 on 50 edges it. Maths, don't you love it...
But then there's an entirely separate dimension to it. The fullbacks asked to alternate when one is obviously the primary attacking outlet, Lucho starting as a winger when he should start box-to-box, Klinsmann playing the Wellbeck graft role instead of focusing on being the striker his team needed, and your better attacking CM (Simeone, then Lerby) on your left being utterly free all game and left largely for Conti to try do a job on by desperately tracking back to cover the gaping hole, as Deschamps quite clearly had a different role (which he wouldn't be stupid enough not to stick to, I would hope, even if he can see Simeone/Lerby freely rampaging forward). But then even if he manages to track the midfielder, Irwin is left free to rampage forward and support Cristiano and even provide, ironically, a 2v1 on Zanetti.
It's utter and widespread confusion for much of the game on basic elementary stuff and I can't allow for so many players saying "feck it, this doesn't work, I'll play differently". It is only deep in the second half that it starts getting fixed, which is a little too late TBH.
On the other hand we have a team with a clear gameplan from the off, with the right players to execute it, executing exactly what they did at the highest level during their peak, with the exact same or similar partners.
I know which side would win that game, even if on paper it didn't look likely.
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Absolutely outstanding player and good video.
Quick write-up on why I would be more likely to win, better put forth than from me.
Great summary as usual anto. Just one thing, I wasn't set out to nick one goal and sit back and soak pressure for the rest of the game. There's an entirely different type of set of players, specially at the back, that I would have picked for the gameplan. But from the start of the draft I have collected defenders who are competent enough, as you put it, to hold their own while never lacking an option the play the ball out. In this game, my plan is simple, I'll just exchange blows for 90 minutes, simple as that. You hit me 5 times, I'll hit you 6 times. That's what I believe suits this team and even if I do take the lead, as you rightly said dropping deep and trying to soak pressure would just be shooting my own foot and I will have to start all over again, with the momentum in the opposition favour this time. Instead I'm just interested in dealing as many blows as quickly as possible to the opposition. I said this in the last game as well that the more open the game is the more my players would relish it and it will bring the best out of them. I am well aware that a couple of times I will be picking the ball out of my own net in the process, but so be it. It's my only chance, and IMO it is a better plan than scoring once and trying to see out the rest of the game. The only time it would work would be if I score the first goal late in the game, which is unlikely here because this is not a cagey affair and as you said both teams have factors that will work for them. So I don't want my defense to spend 70 odd minutes under tremendous pressure, not at all. They continue playing their natural game and hope for one of those Barca 5-0 type attacking displays.
It will be that sort of game most definitely, two brilliant offenses clashing heads here with Platini-Boniek-Cristiano on one side perfect for the long-ball counter-attacks and Maradona-Conti-Klinsmann on the other side attacking the counter with short passing in to space to keep it on the ground.
Your defense and Guardiola have great long range passing to find your front trio and my team all has great short passing capable of quick counters that way.
Your defense and Guardiola have great long range passing to find your front trio and my team all has great short passing capable of quick counters that way.
A lot will come down to what preference the voters has here, will the wide threat and Atletico like counters of my side beat your beautiful Dream-Team counters. I have the solid defense, grit and work-rate and general cunthisness going for me and you have the more aggressive offense of trying to outscore the opponent.
Would be an interesting match to see.
Would be an interesting match to see.
Great summary as usual anto. Just one thing, I wasn't set out to nick one goal and sit back and soak pressure for the rest of the game. There's an entirely different type of set of players, specially at the back, that I would have picked for the gameplan. But from the start of the draft I have collected defenders who are competent enough, as you put it, to hold their own while never lacking an option the play the ball out. In this game, my plan is simple, I'll just exchange blows for 90 minutes, simple as that. You hit me 5 times, I'll hit you 6 times. That's what I believe suits this team and even if I do take the lead, as you rightly said dropping deep and trying to soak pressure would just be shooting my own foot and I will have to start all over again, with the momentum in the opposition favour this time. Instead I'm just interested in dealing as many blows as quickly as possible to the opposition. I said this in the last game as well that the more open the game is the more my players would relish it and it will bring the best out of them. I am well aware that a couple of times I will be picking the ball out of my own net in the process, but so be it. It's my only chance, and IMO it is a better plan than scoring once and trying to see out the rest of the game. The only time it would work would be if I score the first goal late in the game, which is unlikely here because this is not a cagey affair and as you said both teams have factors that will work for them. So I don't want my defense to spend 70 odd minutes under tremendous pressure, not at all. They continue playing their natural game and hope for one of those Barca 5-0 type attacking displays.
Aye, I agree. By sustained pressure I didn't mean that much that you would willingly invite it to sit out a 1-0 but that you would be placed under it once you got a lead. It would only be natural for Annah's side to go into overdrive trying to regain that goal, which in turns offers ample opportunities for you to do that trading of blows. It's a lottery from then on, and having scored first I had you having an edge in that lottery. The key issue there was if he scored first then he could execute that shutting up shop and Maradona-Conti and Klinsmann on the break would do the rest.
Again, largely on paper, as he has had Effenberg and Lucho focused on the side with Bossis (who wasn't going forward anyway) and Essien (and then Simeone) for about 80 minutes. Differently from @MJJ I rate the damage Lerby could do rampaging forward once he got on the pitch after watching from the sidelines in the first half and gagging to have a run and screamer of a shot in that gaping hole in the midfield. And the first goal would have hardly gone Annah's way with Klinsmann hellbent on "terrorising Guardiola" for 70 minutes or so.
As everything has been said already towards both sides I will focus on giving Vierchowod more shine in the spot-light.
Regarding Vierchowod being slower than Ronaldo, I don't find that a necessary truth. Vierchowod himself claimed he would run 100 metres in less than 11 seconds, similar to the fastest footballers ever like Overmars/Reuter. Even at the age of nearly 40 him and his Piacenza was up against Ronaldo and Inter and managed to keep up with his pace over long and short distances in that game which is incredible.
I wouldn't say that any player in history would beat Vierchowod in terms of pace and acceleration. Noted should be that it doesn't make you a defensive beast per default, Cordoba was incredibly fast as well and much less of a defender than Vierchowod.
But his pace and acceleration certainly makes him worthy of being picked in these drafts, even in finals, if those are important attributes for the tactic.
Regarding Vierchowod being slower than Ronaldo, I don't find that a necessary truth. Vierchowod himself claimed he would run 100 metres in less than 11 seconds, similar to the fastest footballers ever like Overmars/Reuter. Even at the age of nearly 40 him and his Piacenza was up against Ronaldo and Inter and managed to keep up with his pace over long and short distances in that game which is incredible.
I wouldn't say that any player in history would beat Vierchowod in terms of pace and acceleration. Noted should be that it doesn't make you a defensive beast per default, Cordoba was incredibly fast as well and much less of a defender than Vierchowod.
But his pace and acceleration certainly makes him worthy of being picked in these drafts, even in finals, if those are important attributes for the tactic.
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When I voted he had essien there instead of lerby, although I have never watched him so read up on lerby. Really impressed by what I read, was a pretty tough bastard(played two games in a day) but had a very good technique.
From what I gathered, he could play the luis enrique role for aldo's side with a bit less versatility but makes up for it with his physicality. Agree with you that he will have scoring opportunities in this match and with a career average of 0.25 goals per game, can see him sticking one away.
Problem with that is that ronaldo would have a head start and running the right way so might give him the edge speed-wise. Although that maradona quote and this makes me wonder.
One thing I will say that might be controversial, I dont think ronaldo scores/has much of an impact against elite defensive units, he is always looking for a weak link and your defense doesnt have any.
It is why I included Cordoba there, having great pace and acceleration doesn't make you an impeccable and unbeatable defender. Of course Vierchowod was much more than a defender with great pace and acceleration, he is one of the few with such natural physical abilities of all the all-time great defenders.
It is quite rare to find a defender with the pace and acceleration of Ronaldo/Eusebio - actually develop the other aspects of his game and become a complete defender. Usually they end up as one trick ponies, relying on their natural gifts rather than develop themselves year after year in the other areas to combine it.
There aren't many scenarios where he would be out of depth either. He is great as a stopper or a sweeper, absolutely incredible on the ball and his interceptions are magical and can start a counter-attack instantly. Good in the air, and of course considered to be incredibly tough and hard as well.
Great game with Vierchowod and Baresi in the side. Ferrara, Bergomi and Maldini are playing as well.
I'll see if I can dig something out for good old Bossis as well, but not till the game is not over. Don't want to make it look like I'm doing it to get votes or anything. I refrained from replying to your argument that Zanetti is better than him "defensively" because there weren't many who could look more assured on the ball and calm and composed in defense than Bossis did in his day, and for so many years. This is coming from one of Pupi's biggest fans. I am talking in pure defensive terms, not that he was shy going forward, in fact given his calmness on the ball he would glide past players and scored some peaches, specially that one against ASSE, but yeah behind the ball he was a real champion of a defender. I remember @Gio agreeing with me in one of the earlier drafts that he's usually overlooked in that regard, but from the "Platini generation" of French football, he was without a doubt a real stalwart. He, and a lot of others from that France NT, would have been rated a lot higher if they had reached the final of the 82 WC, which they really deserved to, instead it was decided on the first ever penalty shootout in a WC and we saw the Germans, who were alleged to have fixed their match against Austria earlier in the tournament, go to the final.
You should look up Balu's account of that episode in the main thread. After having played the first game and flown back to Germany his taxi was stuck in a trafffic jam so he got out and ran the last 2kms to the stadium! Perfectly portrays the sort of determined and committed chap he was! Imagine being stuck in a traffic jam on your way to Old Trafford and seeing Rooney running on the sidewalk like a madman... Somehow can't see it happening
He would be sat in the car, angry and confused.Poor bloke was disappointed when the manager told him he would be on the bench for the first half
Don't shy out on presenting him now. Always interesting to hear from the manager about the players of choice.
@Annahnomoss
Formation and the other thing updated - sorry for being slow to react, I've been pondering on Redondo and having a drink.
Formation and the other thing updated - sorry for being slow to react, I've been pondering on Redondo and having a drink.