Fantasy draft S1: Cutch VS Chester

[Chesterlestreet]

You could have instead of Keano. But yes, I think your best bet was keeping Ronaldo and dropping Cabrini to bring on Matthäus. I actually hadn't seen you guys had reinforced already when I wrote that last night.

I rate Cabrini, even said in the last game he was bound to have a better game than Carlos. Not that many Carlos fanbois would agree, but it was clear as daylight to me. But you quite simply don't drop Ronaldo to keep a fullback, let alone against a diamond with that backline. Play Viv Anderson at leftback for all I care but never ever drop Ronaldo. You went from having the most feared frontline and a "score more than you" approach to trying to nick a goal.

In a nutshell, play your last side against the one that started this game and it would win 9 times out of 10, it's that simple.

Again, not knocking you while you are down. If anything I'm grateful you put Enzo and Litti in a setup that made justice to them, something I probably would have never managed even if I tried.

Hehe, it's true, ain't it? But the only thing I could've done, then, is to drop Cabrini - that's what it all comes down to. And further upgraded on Dunga. Matthäus a better fit than Keano? I'm not sure I agree with that. Robson isn't too unlike Matthäus as an offensive player. And when I see Matthäus in my mind's eye, I see...a horrible cnut...but also something other than this defensive powerhouse people seem to think he was. I don't get that, really - I agree with what Annah said in another thread regarding Matthäus.

Anyway, I don't really like him to he honest. Not enough to want to include him in a team based on, well, sporting players I'm fond of in one way or another.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yups. If you wanted a bit more protection you already had Popescu, as you do here. It's a shame the votes piled up so quickly, makes it a mountain to climb even when that was quite clearly a 1-0 game and at this stage in the first half it could quite feasibly still be 0-0 and not 9-1

Aye, you could say that - but then again I'm quite pleased with the way things have turned out overall. Didn't expect to reach the last four, to be honest.

 

[antohan]

Hehe, it's true, ain't it? But the only thing I could've done, then, is to drop Cabrini - that's what it all comes down to. And further upgraded on Dunga. Matthäus a better fit than Keano? I'm not sure I agree with that. Robson isn't too unlike Matthäus as an offensive player. And when I see Matthäus in my mind's eye, I see...a horrible cnut...but also something other than this defensive powerhouse people seem to think he was. I don't get that, really - I agree with what Annah said in another thread regarding Matthäus.

Anyway, I don't really like him to he honest. Not enough to want to include him in a team based on, well, sporting players I'm fond of in one way or another.

I knew it boiled down to that. Said as much earlier:

I don't think he would suit Cutch as well as Rijkaard TBH, but yeah, with Chester dropping Valderrama he was primed to get the best out of Matthäus instead of having two errr "pure box-to-box beasts". I guess Chester wanted to indulge himself putting them together. Fair fecks AFAIC, he already indulged me enough having that front four together for a couple of games

Stone-cold tactics-wise Matthäus was the better fit over Keano though, particularly after dropping El Pibe. Defensively I have them as equals, but his ability to run a game is what he has on Keano. It's fair to say Robbo also has that on Keano, mind, not at the same level, but let's see how it pans out from now on. With Fat Ron on the pitch for about 3/4 of the game I think in practice you would be straight back in it and have all those Italians scampering around running for cover.

 

[NoPace]

I tend to agree, Pirlo-Rijkaard-Seedorf could've been magnificent.

I voted for Cutch anyways, but I agree this looks magnificent.

 

[NoPace]

I normally find these Milan-y sides (and have voted against Cutch earlier in the draft, I think, because of this) a bit lacking in creativity up top, but Kaka and Savicevic running against CB`s, even good ones like McGrath and Buchwald, when Cabrini and Besznov have to deal with Maldini and Cafu just looks terrifying.

3-1 for me.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

One obvious lesson to be learned from this is to keep your options open as much as possible.

I definitely would've benefited from having a backup for Cabrini. I've got three right backs - none of which would look very good on the opposite side. That was a bit foolish of me. Take this match - I could have exercised better damage control if I could've subbed off Cabrini here and either kept Keano on or pushed Hierro up in the DM role.

 

[antohan]

Yups, should always aim to have an alternative to your TPs just in case.

@NoPace I agree Savicevic is a grand addition to bring more attacking verve to that side but is Popescu doing nothing there for you? If both fullbacks are so far up the pitch you have to wonder what could happen on the break. I don't think Cutch would be foolish enough to send them both forward, just Cafú, with Gattuso covering him.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Final word before I go and get some work done:

I do believe that the purely defensive impact of the tactics I started with is NOT reflected in this score at all. Fair enough, people don't rate Weah's chances highly here. Personally I say they positively underrate them, but nevermind that now. There's no way in hell that Milan side would've scored for fun against my back four plus Hierro as an extra man to deal with Kaka or Savicevic. Who are the main threats here? Kaka, Crespo and Savicevic - and Cafu. Gattuso is a non-entity offensively. Redondo can get forward, sure, but I have five men at the back plus the tirelessly up-and-down efforts of both Robson and Keane. Defensively that is extremely solid, I don't care what anyone says.

So, yeah - I don't score. But neither does he. Not in the first twenty minutes of the match - which is what we're talking about here, in terms of playing fantasy football.

 

[Moby]

Final word before I go and get some work done:

I do believe that the purely defensive impact of the tactics I started with is NOT reflected in this score at all. Fair enough, people don't rate Weah's chances highly here. Personally I say they positively underrate them, but nevermind that now. There's no way in hell that Milan side would've scored for fun against my back four plus Hierro as an extra man to deal with Kaka or Savicevic. Who are the main threats here? Kaka, Crespo and Savicevic - and Cafu. Gattuso is a non-entity offensively. Redondo can get forward, sure, but I have five men at the back plus the tirelessly up-and-down efforts of both Robson and Keane. Defensively that is extremely solid, I don't care what anyone says.

So, yeah - I don't score. But neither does he. Not in the first twenty minutes of the match - which is what we're talking about here, in terms of playing fantasy football.

Just my two cents, the difference in voting cannot always be treated as the scoreline. If 9 people thought Cutch would win 1-0, the score would read 9-0 not them saying you would lose by that much, that is all.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Just my two cents, the difference in voting cannot always be treated as the scoreline. If 9 people thought Cutch would win 1-0, the score would read 9-0 not them saying you would lose by that much, that is all.

Not saying it is, mate - but when the votes rush in for a manager, the one who sits on the opposite side must take this either as severe criticism of his, let's say, basic approach - or as a clear indication that people simply don't fancy the team he has put out there. It can hardly be viewed in any other light. And so he makes some changes - and hopes to exercise some damage control. And part of the latter would be to point out that his tactical dispositions weren't as horrible as the voting thus far indicates.

 

[Moby]

Not saying it is, mate - but when the votes rush in for a manager, the one who sits on the opposite side must take this either as severe criticism of his, let's say, basic approach - or as a clear indication that people simply don't fancy the team he has put out there. It can hardly be viewed in any other light. And so he makes some changes - and hopes to exercise some damage control. And part of the latter would be to point out that his tactical dispositions weren't as horrible as the voting thus far indicates.

It's far far from horrible but at this stage, scores like this have been seen before. It comes down to who has the weakest player on the pitch a lot of times than who has the better setup, etc. And scores can go a bit crazy but I hope you don't consider that as a slight on your top notch effort, just that the margins are slim. I can tell you from personal experience, I lost one of the finals by a good margin of around 15 votes, and here's my front 6 : Cruyff running down the left, Zico is the number 10, Garrincha is doing his bit on the right with Muller to finish things up in the middle, supported by Duncan Edwards and Frank Rijkaard in midfield. Is that a team that would lose by 5 goals, something that a scaled down version of the votes might suggest? Obviously no, but it was just that almost everyone fancied the other team. I can understand if it feels harsh, was pretty harsh for VivaCrappy as well who had a great team, but at the same time it happens without the losing man having done something horribly wrong. If it's any consolation you had a brilliant draft, at this stage it is nothing more than a formality on who wins, but this draft was fantastic, a lot of it was because of the TP but otherwise as well we got to see some great matchups.

 

[antohan]

Just my two cents, the difference in voting cannot always be treated as the scoreline. If 9 people thought Cutch would win 1-0, the score would read 9-0 not them saying you would lose by that much, that is all.

Not saying it is, mate - but when the votes rush in for a manager, the one who sits on the opposite side must take this either as severe criticism of his, let's say, basic approach - or as a clear indication that people simply don't fancy the team he has put out there. It can hardly be viewed in any other light. And so he makes some changes - and hopes to exercise some damage control. And part of the latter would be to point out that his tactical dispositions weren't as horrible as the voting thus far indicates.

In fairness Aldo, Chester has a point. You don't comprehensively lose this match inside twenty minutes with those setups. People indicated their intentions (the equivalent of a manager seeing how a game is panning out) fair enough, now the manager has acted accordingly.

I know it can be a nightmare and pretty ridiculous at the end of a game, but if there's value in the unvote function that is exactly where it is. Nothing strange with that, games have different phases, changes happen the tide changes... I usually wait to see how the game pans out but understand early votes are needed to know where you are standing (e.g. I voted against Cutch straight away last time because he had clearly cocked it up with Baggio IMO) but nothing stops people then changing their vote.

Similar scenario in Viva's game against Annah, I think his setup for the second half would have done very well, but there was complete confusion early on which would have been exploited. Here? I just see an underwhelming Weah relative to Ronaldo, you don't concede goals from that, just don't get a lead.

 

[Gio]

I try to vote later on during games, seeing the 24 hours as a 90-minute match. But I appreciate many of the voters aren't draft nerds like me and would rather come in, vote and get on with real life. As a manager, it's always worth keeping an eye on the early votes and reacting accordingly.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

It's far far from horrible but at this stage, scores like this have been seen before. It comes down to who has the weakest player on the pitch a lot of times than who has the better setup, etc. And scores can go a bit crazy but I hope you don't consider that as a slight on your top notch effort, just that the margins are slim. I can tell you from personal experience, I lost one of the finals by a good margin of around 15 votes, and here's my front 6 : Cruyff running down the left, Zico is the number 10, Garrincha is doing his bit on the right with Muller to finish things up in the middle, supported by Duncan Edwards and Frank Rijkaard in midfield. Is that a team that would lose by 5 goals, something that a scaled down version of the votes might suggest? Obviously no, but it was just that almost everyone fancied the other team. I can understand if it feels harsh, was pretty harsh for VivaCrappy as well who had a great team, but at the same time it happens without the losing man having done something horribly wrong. If it's any consolation you had a brilliant draft, at this stage it is nothing more than a formality on who wins, but this draft was fantastic, a lot of it was because of the TP but otherwise as well we got to see some great matchups.

Good points, man. And I certainly don't feel bad about anything here, let me make that clear - I'm very pleased with how things have turned out on the whole.

Regarding what anto says here - this is interesting in itself, I think. Forget about this match in particular - it strikes me as an aspect of the drafts one might look at: it's fantasy football, right? So to some extent the idea is to emulate the "feel" of a real match. If you show up with Duncan Edwards, Zico, Cruyff and Garrincha - you don't lose 5-0, we all know that. And in some way or form the votes do come to represent a scoreline - even though we know there is no proper correlation here.

One could tinker a bit with the format, perhaps. The most obvious measure is to introduce a second element - in addition to the votes - which contributes to determining the outcome of the match. What this would be, precisely, one can discuss - but I think it's doable.

One could also tinker a bit with how the polls are used. An extreme idea - which may be unrealistic in practice - could be to have several polls for a single match. "Which defense is tightest?" "Which offense is strongest?" "Whose assistant manager looks best in shorts?"

Is it possible to have more than one poll in a single thread?

 

[Moby]

Good points, man. And I certainly don't feel bad about anything here, let me make that clear - I'm very pleased with how things have turned out on the whole.

Regarding what anto says here - this is interesting in itself, I think. Forget about this match in particular - it strikes me as an aspect of the drafts one might look at: it's fantasy football, right? So to some extent the idea is to emulate the "feel" of a real match. If you show up with Duncan Edwards, Zico, Cruyff and Garrincha - you don't lose 5-0, we all know that. And in some way or form the votes do come to represent a scoreline - even though we know there is no proper correlation here.

One could tinker a bit with the format, perhaps. The most obvious measure is to introduce a second element - in addition to the votes - which contributes to determining the outcome of the match. What this would be, precisely, one can discuss - but I think it's doable.

One could also tinker a bit with how the polls are used. An extreme idea - which may be unrealistic in practice - could be to have several polls for a single match. "Which defense is tightest?" "Which offense is strongest?" "Whose assistant manager looks best in shorts?"

Is it possible to have more than one poll in a single thread?

Yeah that would definitely add a good amount of detail. Personally I don't see an issue in trying that out.

We cannot create multiple polls, though. The best that can be done is create one huge poll with the option to allow everyone to select multiple choices and tell them to vote one out of every pair in the order of defense, midfield, attack, etc. Something like this poll :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/march-madness-sweet-sixteen.386110/

 

[antohan]

Good points, man. And I certainly don't feel bad about anything here, let me make that clear - I'm very pleased with how things have turned out on the whole.

Regarding what anto says here - this is interesting in itself, I think. Forget about this match in particular - it strikes me as an aspect of the drafts one might look at: it's fantasy football, right? So to some extent the idea is to emulate the "feel" of a real match. If you show up with Duncan Edwards, Zico, Cruyff and Garrincha - you don't lose 5-0, we all know that. And in some way or form the votes do come to represent a scoreline - even though we know there is no proper correlation here.

One could tinker a bit with the format, perhaps. The most obvious measure is to introduce a second element - in addition to the votes - which contributes to determining the outcome of the match. What this would be, precisely, one can discuss - but I think it's doable.

One could also tinker a bit with how the polls are used. An extreme idea - which may be unrealistic in practice - could be to have several polls for a single match. "Which defense is tightest?" "Which offense is strongest?" "Whose assistant manager looks best in shorts?"

Is it possible to have more than one poll in a single thread?

No. And I'm not up for that as I could never ever assit anyone or they would get mauled.

 

[antohan]

Yeah that would definitely add a good amount of detail. Personally I don't see an issue in trying that out.

We cannot create multiple polls, though. The best that can be done is create one huge poll with the option to allow everyone to select multiple choices and tell them to vote one out of every pair in the order of defense, midfield, attack, etc. Something like this poll :

https://www.redcafe.net/threads/march-madness-sweet-sixteen.386110/

poll junkies

Actually, what you COULD do is provide scoreline options: 0-0, 1-0 to X, 1-0 to Y and so on, then Other to X and Other to Y. You then tally up who wins, ignoring the scorelines that are draws.

Possible, sounds to me like overnegineering and fixing what isn't broken, but it seems people like options if that poll is anything to go by.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Yes...over-engineering is the biggest threat - it all becomes completely absurd and not very entertaining when you go past a certain point.

But a complex poll COULD be worth trying - if the options are well thought out, it could be quite fun, actually.

And then there's the possibility, like I said, of having a second determining factor of some sort. Depending on what kind of draft it is (what limitations and criteria are in place), you could reward and punish managers for the sort of players they pick before the actual matches start. So that X will have an edge on Y before the match - because his team is stronger as per the premises agreed upon - but will still have to state his case effectively in the match thread in order to win. Y can come up with a brilliant tactical move which will trump X's inherent advantage, etc.

In such a scenario the votes would count for, say, 75% of the result - and whatever you bring with you into the match will count for the last quarter. Or something. The crucial part will - of course - be to keep it complicated within reason. It could get silly very fast - and you don't want that.

Anyway, to my thinking some changes/experiments in terms of what happens during the matches themselves - and in terms of what determines the outcome - is well worth looking into.

 

[Cutch]

I think you are right, the only role that suits prime Redondo in that setup is as an alternative to Pirlo. Luxury squad option to be a bit more defensively sound while not entirely sacrificing Pirlo's impact, nothing more. He is not the right fit for the wide diamond roles IMO.

Seems like Cutch has this in the bag. I'd go for Rijkaard if I were him. He's gonna be facing Maradona next and he needs someone like him IMO. And as anto said he would fit in a diamond better than Redondo, basically he'd do everything Gattuso would while providing a lot more in attack and overall technical ability.

You could have instead of Keano. But yes, I think your best bet was keeping Ronaldo and dropping Cabrini to bring on Matthäus. I actually hadn't seen you guys had reinforced already when I wrote that last night.

I rate Cabrini, even said in the last game he was bound to have a better game than Carlos. Not that many Carlos fanbois would agree, but it was clear as daylight to me. But you quite simply don't drop Ronaldo to keep a fullback, let alone against a diamond with that backline. Play Viv Anderson at leftback for all I care but never ever drop Ronaldo. You went from having the most feared frontline and a "score more than you" approach to trying to nick a goal.

In a nutshell, play your last side against the one that started this game and it would win 9 times out of 10, it's that simple.

Again, not knocking you while you are down. If anything I'm grateful you put Enzo and Litti in a setup that made justice to them, something I probably would have never managed even if I tried.

I'm not playing a diamond lads. Redondo has no need to be out wide. Any width on that side comes from Maldini and Kaka

 

[Cutch]

Gattuso was preferred to start over Seedorf in this game just to give me a bit more nastiness in midfield in whats sure to be a hell of a battle against Keane and Robson. He'll do a lot of unsung work, giving Pirlo protection and allowing Cafu to bomb forward. Redondo/Rijkaard was a toss up but Redondo's a player I know much better, and he'll give me greater creativity and control over midfield.

 

[antohan]

I'm not playing a diamond lads. Redondo has no need to be out wide. Any width on that side comes from Maldini and Kaka

True, I even stressed you shouldn't after your last game

The point stll stands though, Redondo's best form at Real was typically with two chaps ahead/either side of him, much like Pirlo does here. That´s the role he would suit in this formation, while Seedorf is perfect for where Redondo is (in fact, his familiarity with Redondo that you mentioned comes from being one of those either side of him). It really is a case of Rijkaard is the TP upgrade on Gattuso and not Redondo being the TP upgrade on Seedorf. You can´t have TPs in both roles and Rijkaard is the better improvement, by a distance.

 

[antohan]

Gattuso was preferred to start over Seedorf in this game just to give me a bit more nastiness in midfield in whats sure to be a hell of a battle against Keane and Robson. He'll do a lot of unsung work, giving Pirlo protection and allowing Cafu to bomb forward. Redondo/Rijkaard was a toss up but Redondo's a player I know much better, and he'll give me greater creativity and control over midfield.

No one is arguing Seedorf should have started over Gattuso, I think everyone agrees Pirlo needs that protection and Cafú the cover. Don't get me wrong, Gattuso is doing a fine job for you, it's just Seedorf-Rijkaard would do a better and more creative/fluid/cohesive one than Redondo-Gattuso. They are fine with the defensive duties but better suited to support Kaka and Savicevic.

 

[crappycraperson]

What can be done with the polls though is give people option to choose the score line they went for...

basically the GD between the two sides -

0-0 - Draw
+One- Team A
+One - Team B
+2- Team A
+2- Team B
+3 - Team A
....

people can vote on that. In the end you see which team has the higher GD to win it.

It accomplishes two things -

- First if someone messes up his initial tactics, he can still make a come back later if those who vote after seeing his changed formation, make up the GD already accumulated by the leader.
- Second, people who genuinely think a game will be a draw can vote for that.

 

[antohan]

Anyhow, this is all but over it seems. Only just finished uploading my abridged/restructured Enzo clip on youtube

Thanks to @Chesterlestreet for finally picking two guys that deserved more recognition than they've had in the past.

Look out for the utter loneliness of the guy when playing for Uruguay. It's quite funny looking back at it. The goal that won us the Copa America semifinal in 1987 in Buenos Aires, all the Argies going for him and leaving everyone unattended as they didn't expect them to be able to do much at all (a regular feature throughout)... So Enzo falling down gets a last gasp rare assist because for once the recipient flukes a goal. Then against Italy in 1990, trying to start moves with literally no one in the last third, or the one great turn in the box and lobbed cross against Colombia in 1995 were the guy that misses the ball completely is supposed to be a striker and the one that finally blasts it in was your classic limited agricultural midfielder... That foul at the start of the 1987 final against Chile where he basically gets karate kicked on the halfway line and all the chap gets is a yellow (Enzo would later get red carded for an innocuous challenge after protesting furiously at his lack of protection from the ref). At the end of the Uruguay section Jorginho, Dunga and Mauro Silva, all sticking their boots in...

I really can't understand how he never lost the will to live playing with those useless twats.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Not a bad idea at all Crappy. As much as I like managers changing quickly, it turns a bit of the joy away if one of the managers gets criticism from all the voters and then creates the tactics with the opponents tactics already displayed. It turns in to a case of where it is almost harder to get it wrong than right.

I would also say that this option is good as people can vote based on their initial idea of the game, and later revisit the match after tactics has been changed and discussion has been made and like you say look at it like a 1-0 game, can the opponent come back? All major tactical changes should be timed and turned in to a 90 minutes game, say if you do it after 12 hours - it should say "Tactical change made in half time". So new voters gets a sense of how much impact the prior tactic had.

 

[Annahnomoss]

As this looks almost over I must say that Chester really brings a lot to these drafts, I hope his new ideas gets to be tested and that people are open minded about it. A great read every time and there is nearly always something funny in his match-threads like the tea-lady Jorginho.

 

[antohan]

What can be done with the polls though is give people option to choose the score line they went for...

basically the GD between the two sides -

0-0 - Draw
+One- Team A
+One - Team B
+2- Team A
+2- Team B
+3 - Team A
....

people can vote on that. In the end you see which team has the higher GD to win it.

Similar to what I suggested but with a better twist (GD instead of scoreline). However, I would go with win votes and only GD in the event of a draw.

It accomplishes two things -

- First if someone messes up his initial tactics, he can still make a come back later if those who vote after seeing his changed formation, make up the GD already accumulated by the leader.
- Second, people who genuinely think a game will be a draw can vote for that.

I think the messing up of tactics is something people should take into account and change their votes if they see a change that justifies it. E.g. I thought you lost your last game in the initial confusion but would have certainly reduced the margin after your changes, maybe even gone for a draw. Same here, I would have gone 1-0 or 2-1 (1 GD) Cutch at the start, but changed it now.

 

[crappycraperson]

Amazing video @antohan

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Anyhow, this is all but over it seems. Only just finished uploading my abridged/restructured Enzo clip on youtube

Thanks to @Chesterlestreet for finally picking two guys that deserved more recognition than they've had in the past.

Look out for the utter loneliness of the guy when playing for Uruguay. It's quite funny looking back at it. The goal that won us the Copa America semifinal in 1987 in Buenos Aires, all the Argies going for him and leaving everyone unattended as they didn't expect them to be able to do much at all (a regular feature throughout)... So Enzo falling down gets a last gasp rare assist because for once the recipient flukes a goal. Then against Italy in 1990, trying to start moves with literally no one in the last third, or the one great turn in the box and lobbed cross against Colombia in 1995 were the guy that misses the ball completely is supposed to be a striker and the one that finally blasts it in was your classic limited agricultural midfielder... That foul at the start of the 1987 final against Chile where he basically gets karate kicked on the halfway line and all the chap gets is a yellow (Enzo would later get red carded for an innocuous challenge after protesting furiously at his lack of protection from the ref). At the end of the Uruguay section Jorginho, Dunga and Mauro Silva, all sticking their boots in...

I really can't understand how he never lost the will to live playing with those useless twats.

That's brilliant stuff, man - thanks indeed!

 

[Theon]

Nice team from Cutch - though not a fan off the Redondo upgrade. I don't think he is necessary with Pirlo there and the creativity of Kaka and Savicevic. The wide diamond roles have a very specific and difficult role and I don't think it gets the best out of Redondo - as has been said he is better at the base.

Rijkaard would have been better - agree with those comments. I agree with Cutch's decision to start Gattuso though, he gets a bit underrated in these drafts I feel but he was absolutely terrific at what he did. Pretty much the best in fact.

With that front three and the opportunity of width down the flanks I would prefer to have seen Gattuso - Pirlo - Rijkaard. Offers maximum protection to 1. Pirlo - aiding recovery and allowing him to dictate the game 2. The wingbacks - giving them freedom to affect the game offensively.

That would be a rock to go up against and with the creativity of the front three and Pirlo I don't think you lose much without Redondo's ability on the ball.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

@Cutch

I won't be around when the poll closes, so I'll say congrats and well played now!

Well deserved win - will be interesting to see how you approach the final in terms of upgrades.

Thanks to those who voted for me (or took pity on me, more likely)!

 

[Moby]

Great video, anto. He resembled Cruyff in the style of play quite a lot.

 

[Isotope]

Feck me. He does resemble Cruyff. That dribble, ball control at speed, and the way he score. I have much better appreciation to the man now. Quality stuff, anto!

 

[antohan]

Great video, anto. He resembled Cruyff in the style of play quite a lot.

You know what? You are absolutely right. His frame and build, the way he ran with the ball, the way he roamed freely across the pitch exerting his influence where he saw fit, the tenacity, the dribbling style, the turns, the plasticity of his movements... It's funny because every time I watch Cruyff I have a gut feel he reminds me of someone but couldn't quite put my finger on who. I had never put two and two together, what with Enzo always being surrounded by a bunch of troglodites instead of total footballers...

Good point. If I may add (and it also shows on the video) keepers hated facing him one on one because he was calm, composed, two-footed and resourceful so they could never tell what he was going to do. Every time he faces the goalkeeper it's a matter of who blinks first and commits, and it always endded up being the keeper, followed by Enzo finishing accordingly. Also very much a Cruyff trait that, although some would say that was primarily borne in arrogance.

That's the one huge difference between the two, Enzo was just a humble servant and regarded himself as such. I cut off the interview immediately after the final win over Brazil, the interviewer keeps telling him how proud he must be, what a great send off it was (he was retiring after the tourno) and all he did was keep dedicating ti to the people. The interviewer insisted he should listen to how the whole stadium was chanting his name, how he deserved it more than anyone after so many struggles to get back to the top, starts bigging him up and Enzo clearly starts feeling uncomfortable... In a broken voice he asks him to leave him to it as he was quite emotional because this was his "goodbye to the #10 skyblue jersey, that jersey which was all he had ever wanted to wear". Legend.

He's also never had a bad word to say about the national team, always supportive, always says the right thing, exactly what the players need to hear be it congratulations or sobering comments but always with a positive encouraging twist. That's quite unique but also fitting, it very much defines how he went about things as a player, a way of doing things which ultimately brings success because the "brain" and the star everyone relies on has his head screwed on tight. Ask any of the guys in that River generation and all of them to a man will hold him in the highest esteem as a player, mentor and role model. They didn't do too badly...

 

[Moby]

Great stuff mate, beautifully worded and insightful as ever.

If I may add something, it's always a certain bit of mysterious romance associated, well at least for people like me who are not completely in the know with what goes on the other side of the world, with these "idols" of great players. Let's make a small link here : Erico - Bochini - Enzo. These three players seem to have mesmerized three players who went on to become three of the greatest ever seen, yet they themselves did not achieve that much fame, which does seem a bit strange but once you look further you get to realize that their ability was right up there, which is what their pupils saw in them, and took as the inspiration to model their game around, but they couldn't get the same opportunities as the latter to showcase that ability due to whatever - usually off the pitch - reasons. Bochini in particular got the wrong end of the stick in that one as he's for a nation that produced some of the finest talent and he's easily overlooked while both Erico and Enzo at least hold great stature worldwide with respect to their nations. It just goes on to show how the smallest of changes in one's circumstances can elevate them to a completely different level. In the cases of both Bochini and Enzo, only if they were born in different eras, they could have easily been known in the same breath as the ones they inspired.

 

[MJJ]

You know what? You are absolutely right. His frame and build, the way he ran with the ball, the way he roamed freely across the pitch exerting his influence where he saw fit, the tenacity, the dribbling style, the turns, the plasticity of his movements... It's funny because every time I watch Cruyff I have a gut feel he reminds me of someone but couldn't quite put my finger on who. I had never put two and two together, what with Enzo always being surrounded by a bunch of troglodites instead of total footballers...

Good point. If I may add (and it also shows on the video) keepers hated facing him one on one because he was calm, composed, two-footed and resourceful so they could never tell what he was going to do. Every time he faces the goalkeeper it's a matter of who blinks first and commits, and it always endded up being the keeper, followed by Enzo finishing accordingly. Also very much a Cruyff trait that, although some would say that was primarily borne in arrogance.

That's the one huge difference between the two, Enzo was just a humble servant and regarded himself as such. I cut off the interview immediately after the final win over Brazil, the interviewer keeps telling him how proud he must be, what a great send off it was (he was retiring after the tourno) and all he did was keep dedicating ti to the people. The interviewer insisted he should listen to how the whole stadium was chanting his name, how he deserved it more than anyone after so many struggles to get back to the top, starts bigging him up and Enzo clearly starts feeling uncomfortable... In a broken voice he asks him to leave him to it as he was quite emotional because this was his "goodbye to the #10 skyblue jersey, that jersey which was all he had ever wanted to wear". Legend.

He's also never had a bad word to say about the national team, always supportive, always says the right thing, exactly what the players need to hear be it congratulations or sobering comments but always with a positive encouraging twist. That's quite unique but also fitting, it very much defines how he went about things as a player, a way of doing things which ultimately brings success because the "brain" and the star everyone relies on has his head screwed on tight. Ask any of the guys in that River generation and all of them to a man will hold him in the highest esteem as a player, mentor and role model. They didn't do too badly...

Lovely read that anto., am off to read more about him. A pity I cant watch that video at work.

 

[antohan]

Great stuff mate, beautifully worded and insightful as ever.

If I may add something, it's always a certain bit of mysterious romance associated, well at least for people like me who are not completely in the know with what goes on the other side of the world, with these "idols" of great players. Let's make a small link here : Erico - Bochini - Enzo. These three players seem to have mesmerized three players who went on to become three of the greatest ever seen, yet they themselves did not achieve that much fame, which does seem a bit strange but once you look further you get to realize that their ability was right up there, which is what their pupils saw in them, and took as the inspiration to model their game around, but they couldn't get the same opportunities as the latter to showcase that ability due to whatever - usually off the pitch - reasons. Bochini in particular got the wrong end of the stick in that one as he's for a nation that produced some of the finest talent and he's easily overlooked while both Erico and Enzo at least hold great stature worldwide with respect to their nations. It just goes on to show how the smallest of changes in one's circumstances can elevate them to a completely different level. In the cases of both Bochini and Enzo, only if they were born in different eras, they could have easily been known in the same breath as the ones they inspired.

Absolutely. One common thread there is those they inspired played most of their careers under the European spotlight: Di Stéfano, Maradona, Zidane. They weren't stuck as lifers at Independiente x2, or with Enzo in a rubbish NT and, as I mentioned earlier, an unfortunate but quite reasonable approach to foreign quotas. With Enzo I have a feeling he was unfortunate (e.g. Matra not selling to Barca only to go bust a year later when the sugar daddy got bored) and far too generous (leaving a Marseille side on the rise, after being French Footballer of the Year, out of loyalty to his comrades and agent who wanted to place him, Herrera and Fonseca at Cagliari).

Mind you, it paid off eventually as that same agent of his then hired Enzo to work for him after he retired and now he is a top executive (largely PR and relationship building) at his media conglomerate which owns rights to football matches across Latin America. But yeah, that's one reason I have a great appreciation for River having provided him the right platform to shine brightest, if only at South American level, and not spend his entire career in relative obscurity.

Bochini was unlucky with his timing (Maradona), but there were also political reasons before Diego coming through. I covered it before in the 50s draft. The military regime had it in for him (the leaders were River fans and even when they changed rules and coerced refs Independiente still managed to win league and continental titles instead of them) and made it clear to Menotti he shouldn't be in the NT for 1978 with the River #10 -also a great player, in fairness- going into the squad instead, only for him to not actually get to play much at all anyway. Feckers, not that that was the worst thing the military did in Argentina, TBH.

 

[Cutch]

Just getting back online. Was actually at a real life auction all yesterday evening. Never thought Redcafe would help me in the real world! Some cracking posts there from the likes of Antohan, must get a look at them videos when i get a chance.

Surprised at some of the feedback on Redondo. Think that midfield has a lovely balance with him, Pirlo and Gattuso. Pirlo doing the pretty stuff, Gattuso the dirty stuff and Redondo a bit of both. I notice that Theon also referred to Redondo playing in a wide diamond formation, but i thought the graphic would be clear that i’m not playing that formation here, with the 3 of them all playing pretty centrally. I think its a strong midfield that could boss this game even with Keane and Robson in the opposition. With the attacking threat of Savicevic and Kaka, and the attacking fullbacks i do think i would create the more openings here, and Chester particularly in the starting formation i just couldn’t see scoring.

Looks like i’ll probably win this one. Scoreline probably a bit harsh on Chester who’s probably suffered from having a few lesser known players that i wouldn’t know much about myself. Anyway, really enjoyed his input in this draft.

 

[Chesterlestreet]

Great prose, from anto there - on the great and less than prosaic Francscoli. It was a good ride. Now I feel it's up to Annah to win that semi-final and play him in the final. That would be a worthy end to the draft, eh?

 

[Theon]

Surprised at some of the feedback on Redondo. Think that midfield has a lovely balance with him, Pirlo and Gattuso. Pirlo doing the pretty stuff, Gattuso the dirty stuff and Redondo a bit of both. I notice that Theon also referred to Redondo playing in a wide diamond formation, but i thought the graphic would be clear that i’m not playing that formation here, with the 3 of them all playing pretty centrally.

You said that you were basing your side on the 2004 Milan side, which is really the same as the diamond in terms of the impact on the midfield.The fact that you have Savicevic instead of Shevchenko partnering Crespo doesn't change the role of the centre mids. They have the hardest job on the pitch and need to press out wide whilst covering for offensive fullbacks - Rijkaard is a much better fit there.

With Kaka, Savicevic and most importantly Pirlo there you don't need Redondo as much as Rijkaard.

Not sure what you mean by playing centrally either.. I never said they weren't and know that they do. That is the point, in a diamond you start centrally but the lack of width puts huge pressure on the two centre mids who flank the pivot - mostly defensively.