Fantasy Draft: NoPace VS Pedro/Balu

[Balu]

I was thinking more like using Bergomi as a sweeper as he played there in the Catenaccio style defense as well. Which would be really similar to how he'd play here.

Not sure I like that actually. As much as I rate Kohler, Messi running at him with the ball isn't really using his strength. I much rather have Kohler as the one helping and Bergomi being the one who picks up Messi early. If NoPace played with a 'real' striker, Bergomi sweeping would make much more sense.

7-1 in the votes, I think it should be a lot more even than so.

Yeah and none of those 7 made a single post and stated why they voted for NoPace .

 

[crappycraperson]

7-1 in the votes, I think it should be a lot more even than so.

Pedro has no players bar Ruud who are voter friendly unfortunately while noPace is literally loaded with them. Kohler, Amoros, Bergomi, Brady won't get the requisite credit here. Even Baggio won't be rated as highly as he should be. My first football crush. Anyway I voted early to restore a bit of voting sanity

 

[Annahnomoss]

Not sure I like that actually. As much as I rate Kohler, Messi running at him with the ball isn't really using his strength. I much rather have Kohler as the one helping and Bergomi being the one who picks up Messi early. If NoPace played with a 'real' striker, Bergomi sweeping would make much more sense.


Yeah and none of those 7 made a single post and stated why they voted for NoPace .

I think Suarez and Messi dropping in front of your CB line and picking up balls is the issue. They will constantly be running against the defensive line with the ball at their feet looking to just gain half a metre to unleash a shot.

If Messi/Suarez beats their man, the other CB is going to be in a much worse position to cover up for that - than if you had one sweeping up behind. Then if they beat one, they'd always face that second defender.

Now if Messi gets past Bergomi, the other two CB's will be in line with Bergomi and will have to be running backwards and catch Messi. Which is a much worse situation than the same situation with the sweeper.

I'd prefer a sweeper considering how the only threat here is Suarez or Messi beating one defender in a 1 vs 1. Bergomi isn't going to be 2 metres next to Kohler when Messi beats him - he will be at least 5 metres away which he has to catch up.

 

[The Red Viper]

Woah!

Shocked to see Balu and Pedro losing here by such a margin.

 

[Balu]

I think Suarez and Messi dropping in front of your CB line and picking up balls is the issue. They will constantly be running against the defensive line with the ball at their feet looking to just gain half a metre to unleash a shot.

If Messi/Suarez beats their man, the other CB is going to be in a much worse position to cover up for that - than if you had one sweeping up behind. Then if they beat one, they'd always face that second defender.

Now if Messi gets past Bergomi, the other two CB's will be in line with Bergomi and will have to be running backwards and catch Messi. Which is a much worse situation than the same situation with the sweeper.

I'd prefer a sweeper considering how the only threat here is Suarez or Messi beating one defender in a 1 vs 1. Bergomi isn't going to be 2 metres next to Kohler when Messi beats him - he will be at least 5 metres away which he has to catch up.

I don't agree with this at all. Why do you believe that they would all stand inline 5 m away from each other and watch Messi pick up the ball and take one of them on? Of course there's a dynamic there, Bergomi following Messi and Kohler covering with Thuram marking Suarez for example. At no point is here a situation where either Suarez or Messi just needs to beat one man and gets a good shot on goal. That's the beauty of 3 top class defenders here.

I also don't get why you constantly talk about Messi and Suarez looking to shoot quickly. That's not Messi's game at all and Suarez never has been a big threat against top quality defenders on his own. There's also the problem with NoPace's tactic. If he wants to play a strong pressing game, he needs to have some sort of ball retention. He can't afford to lose the ball quickly all the time, because it gives me more chances to score on the counter - a blocked shot is really dangerous for him - and it means he'll run out of steam at one point and we can hurt him a lot late in the game.

 

[Balu]

Pedro has no players bar Ruud who are voter friendly unfortunately while noPace is literally loaded with them. Kohler, Amoros, Bergomi, Brady won't get the requisite credit here. Even Baggio won't be rated as highly as he should be. My first football crush. Anyway I voted early to restore a bit of voting sanity

Yeah, I already had that feeling during the draft. We bought more and more players, who are excellent but not flashy names at all. It's ridiculous, but I expected it, never really had much hope to win this game .

 

[antohan]

I'm not a real fan of either team. NoPace has lots of flashy names chucked in there but I have absolutely no idea how that team would actually work. With Balu I get the opposite, I know exactly how it would work, definitely a counter-attacking team there, but I'm not seeing NoPace's side as the ideal one to play against in that way.

Borefest.

 

[PedroMendez]

Anyway: Now I really have to work for 1-2 hours before I can replay again. So I try to structure my (very confuse) thoughts:

1) NoPace´s rout to goal:
I still dont see a "clear rout" to goal from NoPace, besides "messi just scores against 2-3 opponents". He has to decide how to use Vidal and Carlos. Without them, his offense is only a paper tiger, because they are outnumbered. When NoPace commits more player forward, counterattacks via Brady and Baggio become a very viable threat, while my defense wont just fall apart; Seedorf, can pick up Vidal; Amoros can limit Roberto Carlos´s runs.

2) player related:
- Vidal, Busquets and Simeone all excel in the same area. I dont see how he can use Simeone and Vidal efficiently, when Sergio already plays the defensive role. Vidal is one of my favorite players, but his ability to score is overrated (at least 20-25of Vidals goals are pens).
- He completely ignores that Xavi never played as #10 in a diamond. I dont think that he can show his best on this position.
- Suarez is at least a slightly questionable choice against this defense.
=> he heavily relays on xavi playing killer passes and Messi scoring.

3) My route to score:
His defense has at least one weak spot (Roberto Carlos), that can be exploited. Counter attacking or cautiously building up with Brady, overloading the side with Amoros, Baggio, Seedorf, are both very valid ways to score.

4) Some the players on my team seem to be a bit underrated:
- I consider Sousa "the weakest link": Still he won two CL-title and other mayor title in germany, italy and portugal as a defensive midfielder. He doesnt play on the level of Xavi, but he´ll still chase him around the field and limit his impact.
- Brady is made for his role in this team. He was Arsenal´s best player in the late 70s with a stunning display in the 79´ FA cup final against United. After joining Juve, he won two seria A titles and was their best player until he got replaced by Platini. A great player, with incredible spirit, who excelled with the ball on his feed; still he was also someone who was always willing to work his ass of for his team.
- Baggio: At his best he was world class and almost on par with the very best players, that ever played the game. His biggest problems were injuries and coaches who limited him to certain roles. I consider him to be the second best best player on the pitch - after Messi.

 

[MJJ]

Touch choice this. The middle is so congested I doubt either team will make much headway there although messi's dribbling gives him a slight edge. Strangely I see roberto carlos deciding this match either way, if he has a good game I can see nopace edging it.Although he doesnt have a physical beast upfront to capitalize on this, both his strikers prefer the ball at their feet.

On the other hand Balu probably has more variety in his attack with both fullbacks being comfortable attacking and RVN being the perfect lead the line striker with baggio behind him. Problem for Balue is that Nopace can easily keep two of vidal/simeone/busquets back to win the ball and I cant think of a better trio than messi/xavi/busquets to retain possession and create opportunities.

 

[Rykker_4united]

There is a lot of forward quality in NoPace's team. The formation doesn't really matter as much with dynamic and creative players like that.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I don't agree with this at all. Why do you believe that they would all stand inline 5 m away from each other and watch Messi pick up the ball and take one of them on? Of course there's a dynamic there, Bergomi following Messi and Kohler covering with Thuram marking Suarez for example. At no point is here a situation where either Suarez or Messi just needs to beat one man and gets a good shot on goal. That's the beauty of 3 top class defenders here.

I also don't get why you constantly talk about Messi and Suarez looking to shoot quickly. That's not Messi's game at all and Suarez never has been a big threat against top quality defenders on his own. There's also the problem with NoPace's tactic. If he wants to play a strong pressing game, he needs to have some sort of ball retention. He can't afford to lose the ball quickly all the time, because it gives me more chances to score on the counter - a blocked shot is really dangerous for him - and it means he'll run out of steam at one point and we can hurt him a lot late in the game.

Because against three defenders of that quality and no real base around him to link-up with that is the only option left. They will look to beat a man, if the dribble doesn't allow them to beat the CB but they will have a yard they'll shoot.

What is the other option for them? Play the ball backwards to the midfielders again? There is no way that the midfielders of NoPace can provide the balls to allow Messi to play his best game here.

Suarez fits this type of game well, Messi would be forced to play a similar game as Suarez but of course with the much better skill-set.

Also if you play a defensive line, there will be distance in between your CB's. The penalty box is 40 metres, so if all your three CB's are on the same side of the box there'd still be more than 5 metres between them.

Having a 3 man cb line usually doesn't mean that the distance between every defender is much smaller than in a 2 man CB line. It is more often a case of the wing-backs being pushed further out wide.

It is all fair to say you will have one CB covering behind the CB that is at risk of being beat in a 1 vs 1 - but that is more having an undesignated sweeper IMO than playing a regular 3 man CB line.

Worth stating more explicitly in the OP write-up I believe.

 

[Annahnomoss]

What is not being discussed is RVN having a free service of crosses in this game. I have a hard time seeing NoPace doing anything to stop that service and with Baggio behind him that is a game perfectly suited for RVN.

One of the best goal-scorers ever for United, having a game that fits him perfectly here. Lizarazu and Amoros are brilliant crossers and he'll be available inside the box for long-balls all game.

Not sure if NoPace would reach Messi/Suarez enough to out do a RVN with brilliant crosses provided to him.

 

[crappycraperson]

I can't believe you are talking about Suarez in the same breath as Messi. He would do jackshit against this defense.

Balu is right that messi just won't start shooting from distance. He has never done that even with Barca when they have faced packed defenses.

 

[Balu]

Because against three defenders of that quality and no real base around him to link-up with that is the only option left. They will look to beat a man, if the dribble doesn't allow them to beat the CB but they will have a yard they'll shoot.

What is the other option for them? Play the ball backwards to the midfielders again? There is no way that the midfielders of NoPace can provide the balls to allow Messi to play his best game here.

I'm still a bit confused how you can call that a 'very clear' route to goal. That sounds like desperation and hoping to fluke a goal through individual class to me. A clear route to goal is exploiting a specific weakness or using a significant advantage. That's clearly not the case here. I don't even know what a 'very clear' route to goal is.

Fair enough if you think we should be even more specific with how a 3 man defense works, but it gets a bit tedious if we explain every little detail. Our op is already way clearer in explaining how we attack and defend than NoPace's. A 3 man defense will always react to the position of the ball (every defense does). You keep the shape as long as the ball is outside of the dangerous area and then the defenders shift accordingly to what happens on the pitch, e.g. Messi dropping deep means one follows, one covers. That's completely natural.

 

[Skorenzy]

Not sure what to make of noPace's formation.

2 things - Suarez upfront with Messi.... Surez likes to be involved in build up play, something that is Messi's domain here. He likes to go wide, here that would be a good thing but then who provides the presence in the middle. He is also not good enough to have an impact against Balu's defense. Not good enough to beat either of those 3 CBs 1 v 1 . A bit redundant.

MF --- Overkill. Don't need one of Vidal/Simeone.. better off with another attacker be it a striker or a winger.

I very much doubt that's true at all, but even then it's still fairly irrelevant. What is more relevant is how often Suárez (or Messi) would find themselves in 1v1 situations in the first place. Looking at the respective set-ups, I'd say it's going to be a rarity in this match.

I don't agree with this at all. Why do you believe that they would all stand inline 5 m away from each other and watch Messi pick up the ball and take one of them on? Of course there's a dynamic there, Bergomi following Messi and Kohler covering with Thuram marking Suarez for example. At no point is here a situation where either Suarez or Messi just needs to beat one man and gets a good shot on goal. That's the beauty of 3 top class defenders here.

I also don't get why you constantly talk about Messi and Suarez looking to shoot quickly. That's not Messi's game at all and Suarez never has been a big threat against top quality defenders on his own. There's also the problem with NoPace's tactic. If he wants to play a strong pressing game, he needs to have some sort of ball retention. He can't afford to lose the ball quickly all the time, because it gives me more chances to score on the counter - a blocked shot is really dangerous for him - and it means he'll run out of steam at one point and we can hurt him a lot late in the game.

Correct. The only way NP's side could even get an overload on your DF would be by exploiting the space left by the wingbacks, but since NP doesn't have any width himself that also seems rather unlikely. Related to this, Messi's only realistic out-ball is Roberto Carlos, and without a winger to overlap he'll be tracked a lot more easily anyway. Whatever this game would be, it'd be tight as hell (not 10-1 as it currently stands). I'd vote for a stalemate if that were an option. Although the cynic in me says the more reactive side (ie. yours) probably wins more often than not.

 

[The Red Viper]

NoPace certainly has some really good set of players. But how would it work as a "team". Xavi, as awesome as he is sticks like the odd one out. He relishes in a tiki-taka possession based system. So does Messi but can play in a more direct system but Xavi ain't suited at all. If NoPace had someone like a Rui Costa or Kaka instead of Xavi, then it would have been good.

 

[NoPace]

I'm not a real fan of either team. NoPace has lots of flashy names chucked in there but I have absolutely no idea how that team would actually work. With Balu I get the opposite, I know exactly how it would work, definitely a counter-attacking team there, but I'm not seeing NoPace's side as the ideal one to play against in that way.

Borefest.

I largely agree with this.

I think I can shut down his counters with my team`s tenacity and pace and restrict his offense largely to his fullbacks trying to cross to Ruud against 2 excellent aerial defenders in Hansen and Campbell. That`s still dangerous, but his fullbacks didn`t account for a ton of assists. Apart from absolute freaks like Alves, we`re still talking about a cross leading to a goal (either an assist or as part of an attack leading to a goal) from a fullback every, what, 7 or 8 games per fullback, so 25% of all games?

On the other end, his defense is strong and I`m not committing a ton of players forward. I think it`s a low-scoring game and having Messi and the superior 2nd wave of attack I have in 08-11 Xavi, 11-14 Vidal and 98-01 Roberto Carlos, who found a goal or assist far more often than 25% of their games, is enough to let me grind out a win 2-1 or 1-0.

 

[NoPace]

NoPace certainly has some really good set of players. But how would it work as a "team". Xavi, as awesome as he is sticks like the odd one out. He relishes in a tiki-taka possession based system. So does Messi but can play in a more direct system but Xavi ain't suited at all. If NoPace had someone like a Rui Costa or Kaka instead of Xavi, then it would have been good.

I was expecting this to come up, but it`s based on a misconception. Xavi`s through balls were far better than someone like Kaka`s. At his best, he was easily the best midfielder in the world and was the key man for Spain in tournament wins playing as an 8 and as a 10 in different tourneys.

 

[Skorenzy]

I largely agree with this.

I think I can shut down his counters with my team`s tenacity and pace and restrict his offense largely to his fullbacks trying to cross to Ruud against 2 excellent aerial defenders in Hansen and Campbell. That`s still dangerous, but his fullbacks didn`t account for a ton of assists. Apart from absolute freaks like Alves, we`re still talking about a cross leading to a goal (either an assist or as part of an attack leading to a goal) from a fullback every, what, 7 or 8 games per fullback, so 25% of all games?

On the other end, his defense is strong and I`m not committing a ton of players forward. I think it`s a low-scoring game and having Messi and the superior 2nd wave of attack I have in 08-11 Xavi, 11-14 Vidal and 98-01 Roberto Carlos, who found a goal or assist far more often than 25% of their games, is enough to let me grind out a win 2-1 or 1-0.

That's the key here. Details will decide this game really.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I'm still a bit confused how you can call that a 'very clear' route to goal. That sounds like desperation and hoping to fluke a goal through individual class to me. A clear route to goal is exploiting a specific weakness or using a significant advantage. That's clearly not the case here. I don't even know what a 'very clear' route to goal is.

Fair enough if you think we should be even more specific with how a 3 man defense works, but it gets a bit tedious if we explain every little detail. Our op is already way clearer in explaining how we attack and defend than NoPace's. A 3 man defense will always react to the position of the ball (every defense does). You keep the shape as long as the ball is outside of the dangerous area and then the defenders shift accordingly to what happens on the pitch, e.g. Messi dropping deep means one follows, one covers. That's completely natural.

Of course a three man defense will react to the position of the ball, it is not what I am pointing out. The sole advantage of having a sweeper behind two CB's over a three man line is that the sweeper has a role to sweep up the danger behind the defensive line. He would be much closer to Messi/Suarez if they beat the CB than a regular three man CB line would in the same scenario.

That exact danger is the only route to goal for your opponent, so I don't see the benefit of using a straight three man line in this match. I think I would have preferred the regular three man CB line against every other team in this draft though.

 

[The Red Viper]

I was expecting this to come up, but it`s based on a misconception. Xavi`s through balls were far better than someone like Kaka`s. At his best, he was easily the best midfielder in the world and was the key man for Spain in tournament wins playing as an 8 and as a 10 in different tourneys.

Its not about through-balls.

Obviously Xavi wasn't a sideway passer like an Arteta but the point is Xavi's best is when he plays those 1-2s and the releases the through-balls. The tempo at which he plays the game is quite slow while both Simeone and Vidal are quite direct with their approach.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I can't believe you are talking about Suarez in the same breath as Messi. He would do jackshit against this defense.

Balu is right that messi just won't start shooting from distance. He has never done that even with Barca when they have faced packed defenses.

Nobody is talking about them in the same breath, I doubt Suarez would beat any of the CB's here unless Messi gets them disrupted first.

Messi doesn't shoot for Barcelona because they play high possession football and if you do that you can't shoot and give possession away. NoPace has stated he doesn't play high possession football at all though, so Messi would be allowed to shoot without worrying about giving up possession from a miss or a deflected shot.

 

[VivaJanuzaj]

The Messi effect is simply incredible. How is this not closer?
Voted for Balu by the way, than shocked to see the score.

 

[crappycraperson]

Nobody is talking about them in the same breath, I doubt Suarez would beat any of the CB's here unless Messi gets them disrupted first.

Messi doesn't shoot for Barcelona because they play high possession football and if you do that you can't shoot and give possession away. NoPace has stated he doesn't play high possession football at all though, so Messi would be allowed to shoot without worrying about giving up possession from a miss or a deflected shot.

Fair enough on the second point. I still think Messi would rather dribble past any defense than start shooting. Take Barca against 10 man Chelsea where losing possession was a non factor but yet Messi did not take shots from the distance and tried to penetrate.

 

[Annahnomoss]

Fair enough on the second point. I still think Messi would rather dribble past any defense than start shooting. Take Barca against 10 man Chelsea where losing possession was a non factor but yet Messi did not take shots from the distance and tried to penetrate.

I agree that the first thing in his head is trying to beat his man clean rather than find the first opportunity to shoot. I think considering the quality he is up against he will early realize that beating a Bergomi completely is going to be rather rare but just gaining enough to get a shot of from an okay distance is going to be something he can do consistently.

Messi/Suarez would take much more risks than Messi would in Barcelona, there he isn't really allowed to take half-chances or loose the ball too often and too fast as keeping it is a main part of Barcelona's possession plans.

I can't see NoPace having Suarez and Messi ordered to wait in the rest of the team, rather they'd try and create something as fast as possible without care if they lost the ball or not.

Messi would be playing more like Suarez usually does for Liverpool than a high possession style.

Should state I haven't made my mind up yet, the RVN route hasn't really been addressed by NoPace so far.

 

[Balu]

I think Baggio runs completely under the radar here. He's much, much more likely to create something on his own than Suarez will and with Ruud actually occupying the centerbacks, Brady and Seedorf fighting a box to box battle with Simeone and Vidal, there isn't that much cover. Busquets is clearly the wrong player to defend against Baggio, in my opinion. And with our team sitting deep and NoPace pressing high up the pitch, there's acres of space to exploit for him. Yet all we're talking about is how those 3 alltime great defenders are possibly beaten with a dribble. It's mental. Baggio is more likely to do something on his own against NoPace's defenders than Messi against Bergomi + one of Kohler or Thuram helping out.

 

[antohan]

I think Baggio runs completely under the radar here.

Agreed. I always hate how he gets shoe-horned into formations which don't quite suit him (e.g. he was once one of two strikers with Maradona behind him iirc). I don't think I ever voted for a side with him precisely for that reason. Strangely, he always invariably gets a lot of bumming but the one time he is in his element and able to display his talent to its full extent... he goes missing. Bizarre.

There isn't a single player in nopace's team who could keep him quiet. Yes, loads of midfield overkill but none of them could do it, let alone with Brady and Seedorf also around. Hansen can try his best (and occasionally fail) to stop him, but won't be able to do much about the pass out wide for a cross, or directly to RvN vs. Campbell.

He would win it single-handedly, just like he did for Italy in '94 (incidentally, they too based their game on a robust defence and grinding wins). Would be far and away the MotM IMO.

 

[Gio]

Surprised at the score here. I've gone for Balu/Pedro. I think Brady's role on the teamsheet as Matthaus on steroids maybe isn't helping matters. Brady, Sousa and Seedorf would work well as a three in a 5-3-1-1. There's a real complementarity between Baggio and Ruud. In Balu/Pedro's back five, there is no weak link and it will be difficult for Suarez and Messi to squeeze through it, especially when that central three can defend as narrow as they like. In fairness to NoPace, Campbell/Hansen is a seamless and strong partnership and they should protect keeper well. But Baggio will cause problems drifting in front of Hansen and between Busquets and Reuter, both of whom might struggle with his ability.

 

[ctp]

This has the look of a very low scoring game. NoPace fruitlessly trying to break through, hoping for a bit of magic from Messi or Suarez while Pedro's counters don't result in a goal. Then, late in the game, Suarez dives in the box and Vidal puts away the penalty. NoPace walks away from from this game with a dirty win in his pocket.

 

[NoPace]

Baggio was great, but I think he'd lack for opportunities to run at defenders with my setup.

And if anyone's winning this tight, defensive battle with an individual performance, surely it's Messi and his 133 goals in 110 matches for Barca over 2 years and not Baggio, whose best 2 year run produced 52 goals in 83 matches.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Blu/Pedro's looks the more coherent set up to me. Brilliant defence, a very complementary partnershp in Baggio and RVN, and a good enough midfield to find them.

 

[Annahnomoss]

I think Baggio would be organizing Pedro's attacks by moving out wide and setting up the full-backs for crosses rather than dominating the central areas and creating goal chances on his own there. That is why I think Pedro would be raining in crosses for RVN with Baggio, Brady and Seedorf in the second wave.

 

[PedroMendez]

Well; i hoped that this would go slightly different. My writing really didnt help at all; way off, confuse and wishy-washy. Once the game started, my job also started, so I didnt have enough time to write/think/formulate anything on a adequate level. My bad. NoPace did a better job to highlight his strength.

Just a few additions to the match:
I feel like the offense is underrated. Counterattacks aside, there are 6 players, who can contribute in various ways. I think Lizarazu and Amoros are both great fullbacks who can capitalize on the fact, that all of NoPace´s midfielders naturally play central roles. Seedorf and Brady are fairly energetic, mobile and versatile players, complementing each other very well and providing the condition, that other players can shine. I understand Gio´s criticism regarding Brady, but I never expected, that he plays like "matthäus on steroids". He has a role similiar to what Modric offers for Madrid; just slightly more offensive, because he has lots of cover behind him. His defensive duties are also limited. I dont expect him to attack, while (miraculously) covering for himself. Baggio is the main attraction who gets exactly the support he needs from behind and his sides, while RvN is exactly the guy you want in the box converting lose balls, through balls and crosses. Additionally I am way more dangerous on setpieces. Its a defensive approach but surely more than just pure counterattacking.

This team wont score one goal after another, but there is enough quality and more than one thought out plan to score. The team is not about individual performance at all. All players have precise roles, that actually suit exactly their former style. At least that was my intention and I havent heard a lot that contradicts that.

On the other side I am still curious. Why should Xavi be world-class as #10, in a diamond for a team that doesnt play a high possession style? Why combining Simeone with Vidal and Busquets? For me NoPace´s team is more about individual greatness. No doubt, all his players are quality and Messi can score against any defense, but I am still convinced, that my team would have a slight advantage.

 

[antohan]

Baggio was great, but I think he'd lack for opportunities to run at defenders with my setup.

And if anyone's winning this tight, defensive battle with an individual performance, surely it's Messi and his 133 goals in 110 matches for Barca over 2 years and not Baggio, whose best 2 year run produced 52 goals in 83 matches.

Firstly, I'd happily take that Baggio record in 90s Serie A over Messi's in La Liga. Second, Baggio wasn't just about scoring or the sort of primary goalscorer Messi was for Barca. Third, how the hell did Messi manage 110 matches in two seasons? That's insane.

 

[NoPace]

Firstly, I'd happily take that Baggio record in 90s Serie A over Messi's in La Liga. Second, Baggio wasn't just about scoring or the sort of primary goalscorer Messi was for Barca. Third, how the hell did Messi manage 110 matches in two seasons? That's insane.

1. http://soccer-europe.com/Statistics/Goals/GPGEuro.html shows the league as producing similar number of goals, though I would guess goals were more spread out between teams.

2. Messi hasn't been just about goalscoring. He's an incredible playmaker and creative talent as well. I'm not bigging up Cristiano Ronaldo here.

3. This is a joke, so even numerating it makes me look humourless.

 

[antohan]

1. http://soccer-europe.com/Statistics/Goals/GPGEuro.html shows the league as producing similar number of goals, though I would guess goals were more spread out between teams.

That site has Serie A as a league producing ~2.5 gpg, that includes both sides. Barca in 2011-12 averaged about 3.5 goals scored per game, before we even bother check the opposition, who socred ~1 goal on average, i.e. 4.5 gpg when Barca was involved.

2. Messi hasn't been just about goalscoring. He's an incredible playmaker and creative talent as well.

I didn't say he wasn't, but I'm sure you understood what I was getting at.

 

[Balu]

I struggle to see how Messi's role here in this game is comparable to the one he played for Barca in those 2 seasons when he scored 133 goals. You don't really surround him with players that give him all the freedom to run at my defense. You have other players who occupy the areas he likes to play in and you play different tactics while I have a perfect set-up to get the best out of Baggio.

Also your link to those goal averages for the leagues begins with the 95/96 season, when Baggio had already left Juve, and ends in 09/10, when Messi still averaged less than a goal per game. You'd need stats for the 6-7 years before that and for the 4 years after that, but I don't really want to argue that Baggio can match Messi's numbers in terms of goals anyway. He doesn't need to when he has a better platform to influence the game and a strike partner in Ruud who doesn't give a shit about the quality of your defenders and can score anyway, which is something you really lack with Suarez here in this game.

 

[Hojoon]

Looks like a 0-0 to me.

90th minute. Suárez dives in the box and acts as if he'd got shot. A fight ensures where the likes of Simeone hound the ref for a penalty. Kohler, Bergomi, and Thuram all walk over valiantly to try to tell the ref the truth. Busquets, not knowing what's going on, decides to take a tumble and clutches his face even though he's 50 yards away from everyone. In the middle of all the chaos, Suárez gets up, bites Thuram and racially abuses him. Bergomi gives him a good old cynical Italian kick in return. Baggio, realizing that the ref hasn't actually blowed his whistle or stopped the play, takes the ball away, dribbles the whole field, rounds off NoPace's keeper, and scores. The man with the divine ponytail comes up with the divine justice.

 

[NoPace]

Blu/Pedro's looks the more coherent set up to me. Brilliant defence, a very complementary partnershp in Baggio and RVN, and a good enough midfield to find them.

Agreed that is side is more coherent and balanced, but I think my team's athleticism and aggressive "back 8" is strong enough to nullify his and has the dribblers, runners and passers to create something and get the goal or two I need on the other end.

Over a long league season against teams of different qualities, maybe I'd go with his side, but in a CL type two-legged set up I'd go for mine.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Agreed that is side is more coherent and balanced, but I think my team's athleticism and aggressive "back 8" is strong enough to nullify his and has the dribblers, runners and passers to create something and get the goal or two I need on the other end.

Over a long league season against teams of different qualities, maybe I'd go with his side, but in a CL type two-legged set up I'd go for mine.

You do have a cracking array of talent without a doubt. A great, complementary pair of centre-backs and two very quick fullbacks outside of them. I just can't really visualise how the rest of the team would work, despite the talent and range of qualities on show. And I'm completely undecided as to whether Suarez and Messi would be unstoppable or just get in each other's way like Tevez/Messi did for Argentina.

Aside from being able to picture how Balu and Pedro's team would play, I'm a massive, shameless fanboy of both Baggio and RVN, and I've got a hard on for 1990s era Serie A defenders. They practically bought my vote in the drafting stages