FA adopting 'Rooney rule'

[horsechoker]

Good luck getting a job in the PL if you're not Allardyce, Pardew, Moyes or Pulis

 

[walkinhop]

Can we have the national team of Nigeria hire Latino, White, and Asian swimming coaches? I don't think the Nigerian swimming federation is diverse enough.

 

[Schneckerl]

I guess some positive could come from this, but just seems like a PR move from the FA given some of their recent conduct.

Institutional racism requires a change of culture and attitudes, something a single rule won't do.

How has it worked in NFL?

Hard to say. Out of the 20 or so minority coaches since '03 I'd say Tomlin and Rivera are really successful. Marvin Lewis kind of for a while, but lost in now.

No idea if they wouldn't have gotten the job regardless.

 

[Chipper]

That's probably part of the reason why the FA are looking to institute the 'Rooney Rule'. Probably not a wholly bad idea simply because it could because even if no minority coaches are ever hired off the back of it, it could be learning experience for the FA when it comes to training/developing coaches in their coaching schemes.

Your post got me thinking that seeing as it's for all roles, someone might end up getting a job within the coaching staff or on one of the age-group teams that they may not otherwise have got after impressing in an interview and then work their way through a la Southgate. Even if there currently isn't actually that many ethnic minority managers out there it maybe open pathways in that sense.

I think tyhe football league adopted this rule so long ago too, so in the future there may be more suitable candidates for the England managers job who worked their way up the divisions.

 

[adexkola]

Predictable responses in thread.

 

[2 man midfield]

The only thing I could maybe see it doing is making black players coming towards the end of their careers do their badges. There must be some feeling of 'why bother?' amongst them. Perhaps they look at the managerial landscape and just decide to go into punditry. This could at least say to those players, do your badges and there will be a chance for you, guaranteed.

 

[RedDevil@84]

and there will be a chance for you, guaranteed

I don't think the clubs that tend to look at the person's color before his CV are going to feel anything like that.

 

[2 man midfield]

I don't think the clubs that tend to look at the person's color before his CV are going to feel anything like that.

I said in my post before this one that I doubt a racist chairman will have his mind changed by this, but it does at least give black managers a foot in the door. At the moment a lot of them aren't even trying to knock on it.

 

[VP89]

You have to first have a level playing field if you want to have equality. That's not there yet.

If Theresa May had no women in her cabinet then it wouldn't be going against equality for her to openly say she wants more.

So if she had a cabinet of the best applicants, and for the purposes of this debate we can say they happen to be men, it's discriminatory to women?

She could have just said she plans to hire the best candidate and not sway on either side for race or sex. Openly favouring one gender doesn't solve the problem of discrimination.

IMO It's like hitting a car with a hammer to remove a dent and then just creating more dents.

 

[RedDevil@84]

At the moment a lot of them aren't even trying to knock on it.

The main point is are they losing out on the competition or they are not being considered because of their color. If it is the former, then this rule will hardly help them.

 

[Shamwow]

So if she had a cabinet of the best applicants, and for the purposes of this debate we can say they happen to be men, it's discriminatory to women?

She could have just said she plans to hire the best candidate and not sway on either side for race or sex. Openly favouring one gender doesn't solve the problem of discrimination.

IMO It's like hitting a car with a hammer to remove a dent and then just creating more dents.

You're doing this thing where you assume that in real life every candidate is picked purely on the basis of their competence at the job. It's a nice thought (especially if you're a white man) but doesn't actually have much to do with reality. I expect you're also doing the thing where you imagine all discrimination is intentional and conscious. It's not. Favouring one gender can actually do a lot to help reduce discrimination. (Edit: See Jojojo's post below for reasons why).

PS I'd not bother with the analogies in future.

 

[jojojo]

Your post got me thinking that seeing as it's for all roles, someone might end up getting a job within the coaching staff or on one of the age-group teams that they may not otherwise have got after impressing in an interview and then work their way through a la Southgate. Even if there currently isn't actually that many ethnic minority managers out there it maybe open pathways in that sense.

I think tyhe football league adopted this rule so long ago too, so in the future there may be more suitable candidates for the England managers job who worked their way up the divisions.

Absolutely. If it takes place throughout the structure, it creates new pathways. A rule like this does multiple things. It makes the recruitment team think and justify their decisionmaking, at least to themselves. It encourages applicants to apply for whatever job they feel qualified for. As new coaches break through at whatever level, it means that when the next job up appears then they will have the qualifications/experience to be realistic candidates. It will help break some of the barriers that stop applicants breaking through, whether that's based of conscious racism or which golf club they belong to.

 

[balaks]

This is all pointless unless they do something about the apparent lack of opportunities BME managers get at all levels of the game. How can somebody from BME community meet the criteria of becoming England manager if they face difficulty getting any sort of decent job to get the experience required to meet that criteria? There clearly is a problem in the game and this will do nothing to solve it.

 

[Classical Mechanic]

Does this mean we can look forward to Sol Campbell leading out the Three Lions?

 

[2 man midfield]

The main point is are they losing out on the competition or they are not being considered because of their color. If it is the former, then this rule will hardly help them.

I've never disagreed with that. It could help a lot more black players into coaching though, at which point the number of black managers will surely increase. It could have a positive effect, even if indirectly.

 

[crossy1686]

Always found these ‘positive discrimination’ things absolutely pointless and insulting. Instead of forcing people to interview someone who is not good enough for the job just because of their skin colour, how about doing more to teach tolerance and understanding in schools?
Does anybody even want to be the token minority at a job interview? How degrading is that?

 

[jojojo]

This is all pointless unless they do something about the apparent lack of opportunities BME managers get at all levels of the game. How can somebody from BME community meet the criteria of becoming England manager if they face difficulty getting any sort of decent job to get the experience required to meet that criteria? There clearly is a problem in the game and this will do nothing to solve it.

Unless I'm misunderstanding it, the FA aren't doing to do this just for the top job. The Football League has already adopted a version of the rule. The Academies are being encouraged to do the same thing. I think the idea is to encourage clubs and associations to do this at every level.

 

[balaks]

Unless I'm misunderstanding it, the FA aren't doing to do this just for the top job. The Football League has already adopted a version of the rule. The Academies are being encouraged to do the same thing. I think the idea is to encourage clubs and associations to do this at every level.

Well if that is the case then I think it's a good move.

 

[Vialli_92]

I find this pointless.

It really is, a managerial job will only go to the best candidate and there just isn't enough minorities in European football to even come close to the amount caucasian white people vying for the same positions who all have better and more top flight experience

 

[balaks]

It really is, a managerial job will only go to the best candidate and there just isn't enough minorities in European football to even come close to the amount caucasian white people vying for the same positions who all have better and more top flight experience

Don't know about that - there are plenty of BME players but a much smaller percentage in management. Why is that?

 

[Vialli_92]

Don't know about that - there are plenty of BME players but a much smaller percentage in management. Why is that?

Yes that is the area they should be focusing on, why are there so few minority managers?

The Rooney rule will not change anything unless they plan on getting those people into managerial jobs in the first place

 

[Pogue Mahone]

How do they define BAME anyway? I mean, it will usually be pretty obvious bit how do they deal with grey areas? (no pun intended)

 

[Henrik Larsson]

I know nothing at all about NFL. I've just read this:

"Following a threat of legal action from an organisation of activists, the NFL created the Workplace Diversity Committee.

That committee proposed the rule, with Rooney saying that at the time just 6% of head coaches in the NFL were black - by 2006 that number had increased to 22%."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/29464078

But it doesn't seem to match at all with the reactions in this thread, so maybe I'm missing something?

 

[Barnslig]

I haven't read all the comments in the thread, but isn't it slightly racist to interview minorities just because they are minorities? Whatever happened to simply employing the most qualified person for the job regardles of gender or ethnisity?

 

[lsd]

The only way you could have a problem with this is if you think a minority shouldnt be interviewed for a job

 

[RedChip]

Positive discrimination kind of goes against the whole equality thing we're trying to achieve. It's a bit like Theresa May openly saying she wants more women in her cabinet.

I thought it was illegal in the UK?

 

[Eboue]

I know nothing at all about NFL. I've just read this:

"Following a threat of legal action from an organisation of activists, the NFL created the Workplace Diversity Committee.

That committee proposed the rule, with Rooney saying that at the time just 6% of head coaches in the NFL were black - by 2006 that number had increased to 22%."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/29464078

But it doesn't seem to match at all with the reactions in this thread, so maybe I'm missing something?

What you are missing is that these type of threads often attract the caf's knuckle draggers who like to complain about things they don't understand.

 

[esmufc07]

Surprised at how many in here seem content with the status quo and don't see the problems managers who don't have white skin face.

How many black managers are there across the 92 Football League clubs?

 

[Scarecrow]

Positive discrimination kind of goes against the whole equality thing we're trying to achieve. It's a bit like Theresa May openly saying she wants more women in her cabinet.

Well, you could actually make a case for looking into that, as women are roughly 50% of the population and it's statistically unlikely to have so few in the cabinet, which could point to a specific issue somewhere down the line. I don't actually know if that's the case, nor how many women there are in the cabinet, just pointing out the general logic.

Now, I'm not sure about this but I imagine black people are no more than 7-8% of the population in England? So that puts it into a whole different category, really. Are they even the second largest ethnicity group?

 

[Shamwow]

I haven't read all the comments in the thread, but isn't it slightly racist to interview minorities just because they are minorities? Whatever happened to simply employing the most qualified person for the job regardles of gender or ethnisity?

Do you seriously think that's happening at the moment? Or has ever actually been the case for that matter?

 

[SteveJ]

A transparently obvious move aimed at forestalling future criticism.

 

[devilish]

If Mou leaves next summer then our shortlist will probably look like this

- Ancelotti
- Allegri
- Simeone
- Paul Parker

 

[Scarecrow]

Surprised at how many in here seem content with the status quo and don't see the problems managers who don't have white skin face.

How many black managers are there across the 92 Football League clubs?

What problems? Give a specific one so that we could discuss it and try to solve it.

I'm not sure what the number is right now but I believe it's been fluctuating between 3 and 6 in recent years, based on a few articles I just read. What percentage of the English population are black people?

 

[Sunny Jim]

That's going to be a barrel of laughs for the ethnic coaches out there.

"We'd like to invite you to an interview for a coaching position".

"Is this because I'm black and you have to?"

"No, we're very interested in your credentials".

"OK, sure"

....


"We regret to inform you that you were not successful on this occasion".

Pretty much, i hate (!) discrmination but this is pointless. As pointless as gender quotas.

 

[diplomat]

Why is it called "Rooney rule" and who could be the possible candidates that fall into this category?

Also, would fans like the same rule to be applied to Manchester United and who do you think deserves a chance at an interview for the manager position, but hasn't been given the opportunity yet due to their skin colour?

 

[jojojo]

I know nothing at all about NFL. I've just read this:

"Following a threat of legal action from an organisation of activists, the NFL created the Workplace Diversity Committee.

That committee proposed the rule, with Rooney saying that at the time just 6% of head coaches in the NFL were black - by 2006 that number had increased to 22%."

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/29464078

But it doesn't seem to match at all with the reactions in this thread, so maybe I'm missing something?

People don't want to imagine that racism, personal or institutional, is a factor in recruitment. Which is odd really, because people have no problem believing that the PL chairman always go for the same handful of relegation-saviours and no problem believing that crap managers get hired, off the back of the old boys' club and who they know, rather than what they know.

 

[11101]

Surprised at how many in here seem content with the status quo and don't see the problems managers who don't have white skin face.

How many black managers are there across the 92 Football League clubs?

5 it seems at the current count, although it changes. 5%. Considering 3% of the British population are black it's not really far off the mark actually.

There may be many more black players in the game but as most are foreign, why would they stick around in England to manage after they finish playing here?

 

[Rhyme Animal]

Why is it called "Rooney rule" and who could be the possible candidates that fall into this category?

Also, would fans like the same rule to be applied to Manchester United and who do you think deserves a chance at an interview for the manager position, but hasn't been given the chance yet due to their skin colour?

The point of the Rooney Rule is to increase and widen the talent pool, and increase the level of coaching (and thus football on show) as it's been proven to do in other sports.

If you're happy believing that the only human beings capable of managing a PL team are white, middle aged men, then so be it.

 

[Caius]

Do you seriously think that's happening at the moment? Or has ever actually been the case for that matter?

Agreed, I really don't understand how people act as if employment is currently completely meritocratic and this rule will somehow discriminate against more qualified candidates.

The most qualified person will get the job - however, hopefully the rule and similar measures will inspire a more diverse group of candidates to work to attain the job

 

[Chipper]

I thought it was illegal in the UK?

I think it is in terms of definitely giving someone a job based on ethnicity. This kind of rule, no.

You can do things like encourage more candidates from certain backgrounds, have workshops, that kind of thing as well as this as far as I know.

I believe you can also offer unpaid positions, training, or maybe lowly paid internships (not not sure on internships) specifically to people based on ethnicity, disability etc. with the chance of getting a job at the end of it. That's a bit of grey area for me as if there's a job up for grabs at the end of it advertised to all then that particular candidate will already have a foot in the door at the organisation and would be more likely to get it compared to an outside applicant.