Existence of God ~ Which is more rational ~ Atheism or Belief in God

[seanoc]

Let me ask you the following. They are loaded questions, but I cannot help that...[/COLOR]

1. Is it absoloutely wrong to beat a man to death with your bare hands because he bumped into you in a bar?

2. Is it absoloutely wrong to rape a newborn baby?

3. Is it absoloutely wrong to go into your next door neighbours house who is an old aged pensioner, and rob her pension, and smash her face flat on the way out?

4. Is it absoloutely wrong to have sex with your best friends wife behind his back?

You never answered any of mine!! Anyway it is you who are making that there are absolutes and that these derive from a God. I'm saying that absolutes don't really exist, there is much grey area, If by killing four people you save five, is that morally correct. Very difficult to say. But this arguement is about morality and ethics not whether a God exists or not.
What is your argument that you need a God for morals or ethics to exist, you have not made it as far as I can see. One point I would like to hear you address is who tells people that a God believes such and such is moral and such iand such is immoral.

I cannot and will not comment on the men that committed that horrendous act. Tell me, were they absoloutely wrong for what they did? Why, because you and the masses say so, or because it is just flat out wrong?

It is a complete cop out that you don't address this point as it is a major hole in case for the existence of a God.
I think they were wrong, that is my opinion.

Love of food is a fairly common trait as well. However this in no ways links to morality. Common traits are not a judgement for what is right and wrong, or are they?

You need to read up on evolutionary psychology, but the answers given there will probably not please you.

Please offer me factual evidence which supports this, or links to where I can find it?

Science continually erodes religion and what people believe a God to be, from Gallileo to Darwin and so on.... The world and all within it are being shown to be more and more so, entirely naturalistic.

The first statement is a belief. I disagree with the second. Remember your judgement of value is entirely subjective.

Nah, it is not a belief, every living being is unique.
Okay, it may be subjcetive, but I ain't alone in thinking that, but I think my analogy about giggs does illustrate my point pretty well.

 

[seanoc]

Why do you need logic to believe in God?...
......God is love.

To turn your response on it's head, why do you need to believe a God to do good for your fellow man? To get a reward?

I believe the reward in itself is to feel good about doing it, people believers or not don't go around thinking thats another few points in the bag, once I'm up to 1023 , I'm heaven bound.

People do good in of itself. People do bad in and of iteslf, not because they believe in a Satan.

I don't need God to have empathy for people in tough situations. I don't need to believe I'm going to rewarded to do good.

Yes there have been many good things done in the name of religion, but ther have been many heinous things done in its name too..........

 

[Kinky Melinky]

If an omnipotent, benevolent God existed, we wouldn't have had a history of horrible violence and slaughter, women would want the same things as men, and Abramovich wouldn't have bought Chelsea. Simple as.

Sorry I'm joining in on this really late, and I am sure this point by Plech has been discussed numerous times already in this thread, so forgive me.

The aged point about "If there is a God, there would be no existance of violent history and slaughter" doesn't carry much weight in my opinion, certainly where Christianity is concerned, and there are a number of reasons why. I think it is important to acknowledge that the true teachings of Christianity never claimed peace on earth. Since the most early Jewish historical documentation, war, famine and all sorts of other acts have prevailed - and as time has passed by, these wars merely get more and more advanced.

According to Christians, their very faith BEGAN with a violent act against a man many believe to have been innocent, including reliable historians who may or may not have any form of religious bias. Obviously I'm talking about Jesus Christ here. So if we are, for 1 second, to take the Christian view point to be valid, then we can already see that God has allowed violence etc to take place on this earth for quite some time. It was never supposed to be a notion to begin with that acts of violence would be wiped from the evil desire of man.

So to round up my opinion, it is 100% clear that God has given man absolute free will to do what he or she wants (there are reasons for this). The Christian will believe God can intervene (depending on a number of factors) - but your average Joe soap non believing breadvan driver from South Manchester has his life balanced entirely on the decisions he makes, and the circumstancial decisions others make around him. It is via the former and latter that his life takes it's path, and if he chooses to take a machine gun and spray a shopping mall load of people, it will more than lightly happen.

This does not mean that God doesn't exist though. Nothing MAN does or does not do, can in any way prove or dis-prove the existance of God. Yes MAN can move someone from one opinion stance to the next, but FULL PROOF - I'm not so sure man has the capabilities.

 

[Wibble]

Cut the jazzy crap and get to the point. Where is the fecking evidence to suggest the drinking statue is fake? Apart from the video, there are tons of articles on the net abt it. So stop pussy footing which you seem to be notorious for and show the data. If you cant, as i said, just shut your gap cos you hv no evidence to suggest such crap.

I do not need evidence of it being fake because there is no credible evidenece of it being real. I'm sure that there is lots of anecdotal evidence as per reports of milk lakes around statues etc. Many scientist from your part of the world have ridiculed the phenomonen. And the main reason not to believe it is BECAUSE IT IS AN INSANE NOTION. People get locked up forr hallucinations like this for their own protection.

But as I have said many many times ... You are asserting that somthing happened therefore you need to prove it. And just because other religious nutters believe the same hysterical rubbish isn't evidence.

And since there is "evidence" that this was a combination of a natural phenomonon followed by mass religious hysteria that is far more convincing that your laughable video which was so unconvincing that it wouldn't even have been shown of some crap US cable show I think it is safe to assume that you are wrong and that your natural inclination to believe just about anything that matches your religious beliefs has made a fool of you.

Astrology, where is your data again to show its inaccurate? Which acclaimed scientific body has disclaimed this? Again, you seem to have problems finding proper evidence.

It was a Nature article. Lots of data, peer reviewed by world renowned scientists, published in the most prestigious scientific journal in the world. You can't get more convincing than that IMO.

What would you take as evidenence? A letter from God telling you personally that Astrology was a load of bollocks?

Jesus, if you do not have any data to back you up, you will just be a silly puss...put your money where your mouth is dude, and show us some credible data. As i said, its the critics role to dispell something with evidence. If that is not done, the object is genuine.

Have you even heard of Nature? Do you know what a peer review process involves? Do you know how hard it is to get something published in Nature? Thought not.

Face it. You do not critically assess anything. You believe what you want (which is fine) and then use anything that vaguely agrees with you as "evidence"

Now others in this thread accept that faith is all you need to believe in God. Why do you need to also believe that it is rational and provable? Insecurity? A nagging suspicion that yet again you have made a fool of yourself?

 

[giggzy]

@ religious people.

 

[Wibble]

Without an external check on what is right and wrong, all we are left with is opinons. Tell me, do you believe it is absoloutely 100% wrong to rape a child? Now tell me exactly why it is, without making it seem insignificant by suggesting that "in your opinon", or in the opinon of the masses it is wrong. I ask you Wibble, is it always wrong, no matter what the circumstances? If so, why?

In my opinion it is 100% wrong. I hope I never live in a society where it is acceptable.

But value systems can't ever be 100% absolute. For example, what is a child. Easy for us all to agree that sex with 3 year old is wrong. But what about consentual (assuming meaingful consent can be given) sex between a 15 year and a 18 year old. In many legal systems this is satutory rape because the 15 year old is a child and the 18 year old is an adult. Even if you believe in this cut off then the "crime" is of far lesser nature than a sixty year old screwing a 5 year old. I know it isn't a perfect comparison because a a 5 year old is unable to povide informed consent but I'm sure you get my point. Absolutes can be counterproductive and counterintuitive.

If it is absoloutely wrong always, I put i to you, that there is absoloute morality. Please let me know your thoughts.

Covered above I think

Please can you answer the following...

1. Does truth exist?
a) Yes - but rarely in ethical/moral issues unless very specific.
b) No
c) I don’t know

2. Does absolute moral right and wrong exist?
a) Yes
b) No - it isn't always wrong to kill for example
c) I don’t know

In peace, Mr Average

I am very wary of absolute anything. Black and white morality produces fanatics.

 

[Wibble]

Am i winding you up so much that you cant sleep?

You aren't winding me up. More entertaining me with your blinkered insanity.

And why would I be sleeping during the day?

I shall pardon your ignorance on this matter. You seem to have the single notion that God is an external being. Well, thats wht certain religions say. But some believe that each and every one of us have divinity inside us. God may not necc be an external being. He could be a level of super consciousness. The state of Nirvana or bliss as they say is a state of mind. When one reaches a level of consciousness where he sees himself a connected to everything in the universe and everything being part of him, he discovers true and selfless love. This stage developes into something where the worldly pleasures mean nothing to him anymore. Some call this state enlightenement. Maybe this is what being a God is, abt being all Love.

I'm sorry but I think you have finally fallen off your rocker. To me this is even more insane than the notion of an all powerful creator

Its quite funny on how you talk abt God when you dont even have a firm understanding abt the definition of God amongst the various religions. Again, dont let things fly by your "EV" the next time!

I don't have a firm undrstnding of all religions because the ones I do have wasted enough of my life. And given the large number of religions doesn't this mean that the vast majority of people are worshiping false idols and therefore will rot in hell?

Religion/God is an archaic throwback that arose out of an excellent ability to reach conclusions based on limited evidence (pattern makers if you like) which has helped us develop science and engineering etc but also leads us astray quite often. This is why illusionists are able to fool us so easily. This is why optical illusion pictures work so well. And why people believed the thirsty Ganesh rubbish.

 

[Wibble]

I do see what you are saying.

However, I am merely asking the a-theists if it always wrong to rape a newborn baby? Not whether it is the better option if a "worse" option is the alternative. When a question on morality is asked, and then other options are added, it can be because the question itself cannot be answered without leading to the conclusion that morality is absoloute.

It gets tricky.

Either; It is absoloutely wrong in your eyes, and therefore you must concede that there is some form of absolute morality. Or, it is not absoloutely wrong, and this goes to show that subjective ethics held by some a-theists actually undermine morality. If it is not absoloutely wrong, *you* could truthfully say to someone, it is *not* absoloutely wrong to rape a newborn. Could you honestly say that? I doubt you could, and I think I understand why.

In Peace, Mr Average.

There is no absolute morality, merely value systems (and I include religions here). Religion attempts to inflict a more rigid set of rules in an attempt to control followers and to strengthen the "tribal" rules that help reinforce the religion and help follwers identify with each other.

As I said before absolutes produce fanatics. How many times have religious nutters killed people they see as transgressing their religions rules? Christinas burned to death in their car while sleeping in Pakistan (or was it India? I forget), 9-11, Madrid, Rwanda (for tribal than eligious but similar), Northern Ireland.

Absolute rigid morality is a road that leads to a mind set that sees others as lesser which can lead to moral behaviour breaking down because those who do not follow your morality do not deserve to be treated as human and can therefore be slaughtered like animals. Or simply made into second class citizerns based on religious belief.

 

[Wibble]

Sorry I'm joining in on this really late, and I am sure this point by Plech has been discussed numerous times already in this thread, so forgive me.

The aged point about "If there is a God, there would be no existance of violent history and slaughter" doesn't carry much weight in my opinion, certainly where Christianity is concerned, and there are a number of reasons why. I think it is important to acknowledge that the true teachings of Christianity never claimed peace on earth. Since the most early Jewish historical documentation, war, famine and all sorts of other acts have prevailed - and as time has passed by, these wars merely get more and more advanced.

According to Christians, their very faith BEGAN with a violent act against a man many believe to have been innocent, including reliable historians who may or may not have any form of religious bias. Obviously I'm talking about Jesus Christ here. So if we are, for 1 second, to take the Christian view point to be valid, then we can already see that God has allowed violence etc to take place on this earth for quite some time. It was never supposed to be a notion to begin with that acts of violence would be wiped from the evil desire of man.

So to round up my opinion, it is 100% clear that God has given man absolute free will to do what he or she wants (there are reasons for this). The Christian will believe God can intervene (depending on a number of factors) - but your average Joe soap non believing breadvan driver from South Manchester has his life balanced entirely on the decisions he makes, and the circumstancial decisions others make around him. It is via the former and latter that his life takes it's path, and if he chooses to take a machine gun and spray a shopping mall load of people, it will more than lightly happen.

This does not mean that God doesn't exist though. Nothing MAN does or does not do, can in any way prove or dis-prove the existance of God. Yes MAN can move someone from one opinion stance to the next, but FULL PROOF - I'm not so sure man has the capabilities.

I think Plech was responding to a statement by The King that god was love.

 

[Wibble]

I know The King likes stuff that has been copied and pasted so here is some stuff for him.

Ganesh returns

Courtesy of The Rationalist Bulletin (Rationalist-owner@yahoogroups.com) comes this comforting news. In India, a "seer" named Pallavi, announced that she had an important message from the elephant god Ganesh to deliver. You may recall that figures of Ganesh in temples around the world a couple years ago were "drinking" offering of milk offered to him, a delusion that did not last long after the atmosphere of sour milk began to overpower worshipers. After speaking "in trance" to the traditional Hindu deity, Pallavi called the Airport Authority of India (AAI) and informed them that on February 10, exactly at 7:40 p.m., a passenger plane coming from Canada was going to crash over India. The plane, painted red and white (what else?) had the flight number I 298, she said. Airport officials lodged a formal complaint with the police against the caller. Quite sure about the veracity of her prediction, the "seer" offered herself to be arrested if it did not come true. Considering the possibility that sabotage might be involved, authorities checked the flight manifests, but there was no flight from Canada scheduled to fly in Indian air space at the given time. So as not to cause any unnecessary panic, they passed their information to senior officials in all possibly concerned airlines. When 7:40 p.m. passed and no air crash was reported, the "seer" confidently announced,"I meant Canadian time, of course." Well, 7:40 p.m. Canadian time passed, and still nothing happened. Never mind, says The Bulletin, to err is divine, Ganesh.

 

[Wibble]

And another thirsty Ganesh related article

Reader Vikram Paralkar has been browsing. You may recall my account of the madness of a while ago when Indian worshipers of the elephant god Ganesh were going nuts over a miracle that quite literally swept the world. It was said that figures of the god were drinking milk offered to them....

I was just going through the JREF online archives and I came upon a mention of the infamous "milk-drinking" incident that occurred a few years ago. I live in Bombay and I was in school at the time when this happened and the incident, well, shook the base out of my world-view.
The whole sensational occurrence came to my knowledge one fine morning. The whole city seemed to be abuzz with it. News channels were going to town with clips of devotees offering milk to the deity. One of our neighbors even claimed that her relatives in Canada had also observed a similar phenomenon! I naturally wanted to see what the whole fuss was about and so I decided to pay a visit to the temple across the street.

Here's what I saw: People had mugs and containers full of milk that they poured onto the trunk of the idol of Lord Ganesh. The blindest eye could have seen that the milk was simply flowing down the body of the statue, into a makeshift trough below. And what's more, temple priests were continuously transferring the collected milk into buckets; two buckets were already full and a third was being carried into the depths of the temple. And while I watched this, appalled, people all around me were chanting and screaming the Indian equivalent of "Praise the Lord!"
What I meant by the earlier statement that "the base was shaken out of my world-view" was that till then, I used to give people the benefit of the doubt. Though I myself never believed in any deity, ever, I still felt that people could not really be blamed for believing in God, in the same sense that one cannot really blame the pre-Copernican world for thinking that the Sun revolved around the Earth. But the whole Ganesh incident put me face-to-face (for the first time, there have been many such experiences since) with the very stark realization that people are STUPID. It's one thing to believe in God because there are many occurrences that cannot (yet) be explained by science, but to attribute shades of the supernatural to something as obvious as the effect of gravity on flowing liquids...that's just beyond me.

Thanks for your time. And keep up your wonderful, or should I say AMAZING, work.

Vikram, you've lost sight of a fundamental fact here. You tell us that you've never had any belief in a deity. You immediately saw the simple truth of this mania. But those who embraced it as a miracle have believed, first, that a god with a human body and the head of an elephant can and does exist, and second, that these figures — in clay, metal, stone — are incarnations of that god. All of their thinking must be directed by that belief, for to deny the miracle is to deny their very firm convictions. Those convictions are based on blind belief that has no evidence to support it, as with all religious beliefs, but this is an integral, firm, element in their lives, unlike in yours.

Try to understand these people. You have to live with them, and the best you can do is survive among them. That's a problem we all face. Along the way, you can try to get them thinking, but that's not at all easy.....!

 

[Wibble]

 

[Wibble]

And a letter to the Randi.org site that shows how people who want to believe fool themsleves

Reader Simon Nicholson, in the UK, shares the following amusing — and instructive — story with us....

A friend came across a horoscope program — I think she downloaded it off the net. The idea was that you typed in your date of birth and it would generate a profile of your personality, along with predictions for the forthcoming week or two concerning health, wealth and love. She ran off printouts for all her friends and family, myself included.

The reaction of most people was lamentably predictable; they marvelled at the uncanny accuracy of the profiles, "Oh that's me to a T" etc. etc., as well as the predictions. In vain I tried to point to the generic nature of the texts, the fact that people are simply not as unique as they like to think, and the vague wishy-washy style of the predictions. I was overruled. The consensus was that there had to be something in this astrology lark, and what did I know, I'm only an astronomy graduate.
They had their comeuppance a couple of days ago, when my friend realised that the software in question was American in origin, and so used a reversed date format to that which we Brits use — the day and month are the other way round. In other words, the profiles and predictions she had been giving out, which everyone found so apt and accurate, were not for their birthdays at all! Someone born on the 11th of February would get a Horoscope for someone born on the 2nd of November, and so on! The fact that the astrobabble was based on a completely different birthdate had made no difference at all to its perceived "insights"!

Why are we not surprised? Thank you, Simon!

 

[Wibble]

And this is just unbelievable

Reader Michael Wright of Norman, Oklahoma, tells us that "Astro-Insight" is part of the professional astrology webring. He gives us the first paragraph of their prediction for the month of September, 2001:


Compared to August, the month of September is likely to be relatively a lot less stressful for most of the world, especially from natural and man-made accidents, terrorism, and violence standpoints. Also, after the first week of September, expect some relief to the volatile region of Israel and Palestine.

----------------------

Close but no cigar

 

[Mr Average]

seanoc

Shall we debate this whole thing you and I? I can answer your questions and you can answer mine. No-one will get involved and we can work through the subject proper style.

When so many people are talking and discussing, clarity is harder to find, know what I mean?

If Wibble wants to assist or take the lead part for the a-theists then that is fine as well. I am not interested in trying to crush a-theistic arguements or a-theists themselves, i just want to show and demonstrate in a civilised manner, that belief in God is reasonable and that the world view which follows is more acceptable than a-theistic viewpoints.

Someone must want to do this with me? I just love debating

To Wibble

I have frequented many sites where learned people, scientists, theologians and philosphphers all debate. Time limits help give strcuture to a formal debate. Keeps tyhings in line and makesit easy for the watchers and the participants to follow.

In Peace, Mr Average

 

[Wibble]

seanoc

Shall we debate this whole thing you and I? I can answer your questions and you can answer mine. No-one will get involved and we can work through the subject proper style.

When so many people are talking and discussing, clarity is harder to find, know what I mean?

If Wibble wants to assist or take the lead part for the a-theists then that is fine as well. I am not interested in trying to crush a-theistic arguements or a-theists themselves, i just want to show and demonstrate in a civilised manner, that belief in God is reasonable and that the world view which follows is more acceptable than a-theistic viewpoints.

Someone must want to do this with me? I just love debating

To Wibble

I have frequented many sites where learned people, scientists, theologians and philosphphers all debate. Time limits help give strcuture to a formal debate. Keeps tyhings in line and makesit easy for the watchers and the participants to follow.

In Peace, Mr Average

Fair enough but I find the formality unnecesary and boring. You make your point fairly and reasonably even if I disagree with the substance. I only get mildly combative when confronted by opinions like The King's so we are safe to continue.

In part response to some of the above, I find belief in God/religion understandable and in that sense reasonable. However, I don't think that it is rational even if believers hold a rationale for their beliefs.

Does that make sense?

It might seem irrational to some but makes complete sense if you take the concept through to it's logical conclusion, but I think that religion/belief in God may even be genetically inherited because faith could possibly give believers a selective advantage e.g. breed more often and/or survive (to breed) longer than aethists because faith can encourage the body to heal itself (without speaking to the divine nature of anything). I jokingly proposed this to Pletch a while ago but whilst speculative at best it does fit with evolutionary theory.

 

[Mr Average]

OK Wibble, looks like you and I should go at it. Both of us have our views and the necessary decorum to listen to the opposing side without getting heated and resorting to non-stop ad-hominems.

How about this...

We have 5 rounds each to present our ideas and beliefs on why each viewpoint is the more reasonable and likely option. I will start and you then follow as quickly or slowly as you like. Time limits can be left out if you prefer, providing that a response comes within shall we say two weeks, latest.

I will stand for the belief in the existence of a creator, and thereby that the belief in and the worldview of a creator is correct, proper and best suited for the human condition. You will stand for a-theism. That there is no creator being, and that living based on this decision/belief worldview is correct and best suited for the human condition.

When I have made my opening post, you can then put forth your own view and if you wish rebut or directly challenge what I have said. If you ask questions, I will answer them, every single one of them, providing you afford me the same courtesy. When you have done your first post, I will then reply and rebut some or all of your position, depending on what you have said,suggested,claimed etc. We go like this until the 5th and final post, where ideally we sum up our view, our position and make final statements and rebuttals.

Can I just say that for me anyway, this is not about winning, or showing off or coming out on top. Rather than seeing this as a competitive exercise, where each is trying to come out on top, I see it as a platform to learn from one another, share our current views and be able to disagree freely, like adults and without insults. Whether you agree with me or not, makes no difference to the way I will treat you. In my eyes, you and every other a-theist are all part of God's divine plan. You just dont know it yet. I respect you for agreeing to go forward with this.

I am happy to discuss debate format, changes to suggested number of rounds etc. let me know what you think is best. Also, if you do not have the time to do this let me know and I will look for another. No worries =)

In Peace, Mr Average

 

[seanoc]

seanoc

Shall we debate this whole thing you and I? I can answer your questions and you can answer mine. No-one will get involved and we can work through the subject proper style.

When so many people are talking and discussing, clarity is harder to find, know what I mean?

If Wibble wants to assist or take the lead part for the a-theists then that is fine as well. I am not interested in trying to crush a-theistic arguements or a-theists themselves, i just want to show and demonstrate in a civilised manner, that belief in God is reasonable and that the world view which follows is more acceptable than a-theistic viewpoints.

Someone must want to do this with me? I just love debating

To Wibble

I have frequented many sites where learned people, scientists, theologians and philosphphers all debate. Time limits help give strcuture to a formal debate. Keeps tyhings in line and makesit easy for the watchers and the participants to follow.

In Peace, Mr Average

I'm with Wibble, why the formaility?? Won't really add anything to the substance of the issue.
I'll address anything you post as a reply to my posts and vice versa.
Just say your bit Mr Average, still waiting on a reply to the last post I replied to you on.
Oh and by the way the question of an absolute morality is not the same as the question of which is more rational Atheism or a belieif in a God. I still hold that belief in a God is irrational.

 

[Mr Average]

seanoc
YOU SAID I'm with Wibble, why the formaility?? Won't really add anything to the substance of the issue.

You are indeed correct, it does not add anything to the actual meat of the issue, but it saves things getting confused and muddled up. Two people getting their ideas across within a set format and directly challenging assumptions etc. It's good fun, not a bad thing, trust me. =)

YOU SAID Just say your bit Mr Average, still waiting on a reply to the last post I replied to you on.

Sorry, was just trying to organise debate, but cant seem to get takers here! Let me know what you want answered again, and I will do so. However, if the questions lead to long answers, I will return the favour and ask searching questions from you, tis only fair. If this seems to be the way things are going, we may as well debate, hadnt we?

YOU SAID Oh and by the way the question of an absolute morality is not the same as the question of which is more rational Atheism or a belieif in a God. I still hold that belief in a God is irrational.

Two different questions, agreed, however, I believe they are interlinked very deeply.

In Peace, Mr Average

 

[nickm]

Top class posts from Wibble there.

 

[seanoc]

seanoc
YOU SAID I'm with Wibble, why the formaility?? Won't really add anything to the substance of the issue.

You are indeed correct, it does not add anything to the actual meat of the issue, but it saves things getting confused and muddled up. Two people getting their ideas across within a set format and directly challenging assumptions etc. It's good fun, not a bad thing, trust me. =)

YOU SAID Just say your bit Mr Average, still waiting on a reply to the last post I replied to you on.

Sorry, was just trying to organise debate, but cant seem to get takers here! Let me know what you want answered again, and I will do so. However, if the questions lead to long answers, I will return the favour and ask searching questions from you, tis only fair. If this seems to be the way things are going, we may as well debate, hadnt we?

YOU SAID Oh and by the way the question of an absolute morality is not the same as the question of which is more rational Atheism or a belieif in a God. I still hold that belief in a God is irrational.

Two different questions, agreed, however, I believe they are interlinked very deeply.

In Peace, Mr Average

Look it, post your thoughts on the issue you want to debate, spare me the process bullshite. Still waiting on your replies to my post above..... Peace.....

 

[Mr Average]

Look it, post your thoughts on the issue you want to debate, spare me the process bullshite. Still waiting on your replies to my post above..... Peace.....

As I said, this is an important subject, which I feel is worthy of a proper platform. I can understand if you do not want to debate this formally with a some-would-say boring format! Most people would probably refuse to debate, just the way of the world. It doesn't matter anyway, there are loads of sites where I can debate these issues, but this is a chilled out forum (sometimes), and I fancied working the issues with the resident a-theists.

As for questions you have asked me, I am not avoiding them, just wanting the right area to respond to them.

Let me tell you what will happen if this is not done right. You and me will go for it, asking loads of questions, debating and rebutting. Others will join in and before we know it, we will not be speaking to each other, and will have ended up debating others. Half the questions I have asked and loads of yours go unanswered. Nothing is clarified, and closure is impossible. It's messy and awkward. Better to have our own locked thread, which is moderated by say, Wibble, and then its just you an me, our beliefs and views aired and shared. =)

In Peace, Mr Average

 

[Wibble]

And since The King has abandoned this thread now that he realises that he is making an even bigger fool of himself than ususal I want to post some of the stuff he has been posting elswhere in this forum. In this case he is slagging off Spinoza. Ironic and

Data dude, where is your data to support your claims …… Prove it credibly or else, feck off and stop wasting time and making you look idiotic.

Irony anyone

Atleast the fake moon landings has some credible points and arguments to back me up, unlike your sentiments.



Second, where is your data ……………… If you dont have the facts on hand, please do not go on further as its a waste of my time.

Irony x2

If you dont hv the data to prove your theories, then its pure rubbish. Period.

Irony x 1000

If you were honest and had a bone of integirty you would see that you cant substantiate your arguments ……… That my friend, is enough to show that you are nothing but rubbish and not worth the time.

Irony x 10,000

@ The King

 

[ManUinOz]

Better to have our own locked thread, which is moderated by say, Wibble, and then its just you an me, our beliefs and views aired and shared. =)

In Peace, Mr Average

You won't get that here so why bother, if you want a formal debate take it elsewhere. This place does tend to end up as a bit of a free for all which, tbh, is why most of us are here.



Wibble; you haven't really got a drinking glass duck have you? Soooo 70's.

 

[Mr Average]

You won't get that here so why bother, if you want a formal debate take it elsewhere.

Why wont I? Is that forum policy?

In Peace, Mr Average.

 

[The King]

And since The King has abandoned this thread now that he realises that he is making an even bigger fool of himself than ususal I want to post some of the stuff he has been posting elswhere in this forum. In this case he is slagging off Spinoza. Ironic and



Irony x 10,000

@ The King

Ha...you wish Wibble, as usual you are demonstarting your uncanny ability for assumption and ignorance.

I was out of town in Bangkok over the past few days with work thus the abscence.

Excerpts from the thread ith Spin? Oh why would you pick and choose words or sentences to suit your own? Oh you poor lil thing. I must hv wound you up real bad.

I can see you posted loads of rubbish, like the two articles. One of it which can be found at Mr Randi's site. I am quite perplexed at your level of stupidity. On numerous occasions has it been stated that milk was not poured. Even in the so called "fake" video, there is no milk pouring. Yet, you post gibberish articles.

Just like you there may be a potential of mistrust on non religious theories on religious sites, so does the same math apply for religious articles on Non religious sites. Bet you wont see the parallel.

Well, as i said, it does not matter if you belive in God or whether you cant prove the non existence of God. Its my personal belief as well as billions out there. And its quite a waste of time cementing this on an ignorant fool. So let it be.

Maybe one day, you will realise it for yourself or vice versa for me. But if that happens, i would not have lost anything, but you would be on your knees, trust me on this!

And oh, why arent you taking up the debate offer from Mr Average. He seems more "sane" than me, i bet you would think. A lil afraid?

 

[seanoc]

Why wont I? Is that forum policy?

In Peace, Mr Average.

It's not forum policy, though I agree with ManUinOz, I'll gladly reply to your posts if your being coherent, but as for formal debates I couldn't be bothered. Still waiting on a reply to my post....

 

[Mr Average]

It's not forum policy, though I agree with ManUinOz, I'll gladly reply to your posts if your being coherent, but as for formal debates I couldn't be bothered. Still waiting on a reply to my post....

I have a taker for a debate now! Just waiting to sort out details etc.

I did ask you in an earlier post to clarify exactly what you want me to answer, with the stipulation that if it requires long answers, I will ask similar questions of you. That being the case, I felt we may as well debate, but no need now anyway.

In Peace, Mr Average.

 

[seanoc]

I have a taker for a debate now! Just waiting to sort out details etc.
In Peace, Mr Average.

Good man, have fun!!!!!!!!!

 

[Wibble]

Mr Average and Crappyperson want to formally debate this subject between themselves. I (and they) request that all others refrain from piling in with comments, no matter how tempting, until they have finished, which might take abaout a week.

Thanks.

 

[Mr Average]

First off I would like to thank Redcafe for hosting this debate. Although this is not a forum which is used to such things, its good to see flexibility shown to the posters. Great stuff.

Secondly, a big thank you to crappycraperson for agreeing to debate me on this important subject. I can think of nothing more important than the question of whether God exists, and whether the belief that he does is more reasonable than the belief that he does not.

Last but not least, thanks to Wibble for helping in setting this up and moderating where and when he can.

Okay then, lets begin...

My Position explained~

God exists.

This is my belief. Simple. I obviously believe therefore that the belief in a creator being is the more reasonable and correct worldview, compared to it's direct opposite, A-theism. I believe that we have significance, external to our own subjective decisions on what is significant. I believe we are hand made by a compassionate and loving God and live in a hand-made world, also made by the same God.

I do not believe that we are the current result of limitless processes without any external plan or purpose. For e.g, I do not believe that a newborn baby is simply a fluke. Because lets be honest, if there is no external plan or purpose, all life is simply a fluke, an accident.

I believe in the sanctity of truth, morality and what is right and wrong. I believe that right and wrong and truth actually exist and can be found and learned from.

I need to understand my opponents position and the best way to do that is to ask questions....I am sure he will do the same for me.
So, my first two questions to Crappycraperson are these...

Q1 Do you believe in truth?

Yes
No
Dont Know


Q2 Do you believe in absolute morality?

Yes
No
Dont Know


If God does not exist, morality is never more than the choice of what is right decided by an individual or a group. Never more than that. This being the case, I will go to my third question. This needs to be answered simply with one of the given answers. Multiplication of conditions is not an acceptable answer, it is merely a way of avoiding the question.

Q3 Is it *ever* right for a grown man to rape a newborn baby?

Yes
No
Dont Know

If yes, please explain. If no, you must concede that there is an absolute morality in which you specifically believe.

Time for a subject jump...

Regarding the universe, where it came from etc....

Q4 What are the origins of the universe or your thoughts on the same?

It has always existed
It spontaneously come into existence from nothing.
It was created

If you can posit a fourth alternative, I would be very glad to hear it. Let me know your choice from the available options and how that bares relation to your belief in A-theism, and the current findings and knowledge of science.

Something to consider also....if you feel that any of what I have asked you is *wrong*, or any of my statements above are not *truthful*, please then defer to the fact that truth definitely does exist for the rest of this debate.

Please can you also clearly state your belief in A-theism, what it means and how this belief is more reasonable than mine?

Thank you and good luck.

In Peace, Mr Average.

 

[crappycraperson]

TO start with i wanted to explain my position like u, but since u have put up some questions. i will answer them along the way as i explain my position.

I want to start by illustrating what led in my life to think the way i do.
The fact is once i did believe in god, religion etc., when i was not matured enough to question the existence of a superior being. I just believed what my mother told me. she took me to a temple , told me to fold my hands and prayed , and i did that like i learnt most of the way of life from my parents , I followed this too.
But as i grew older i started thinking or I should say questioning this god theory. i mean i was and am a science student, I learnt all the theory of evolution and civilization - and found them much more logical then the thing about a creator .
here i will answer your 4th question
Q4 What are the origins of the universe or your thoughts on the same?

It is not possible to answer this question by any of three options u have listed. The fact is there is theory in science explaining this, if i am correct it is known as a big bang theory. u can learn about this , there are various sites available explaining this.
But the fact is even though it is the most widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions. As it isn’t possible because of many limitations of human body, it isn’t possible to roam around universe to look for clues or stuff.
But still SCIENCE provides a very accepting theories regarding universe and conditions resulting in formation of earth.
Its ur right whether u wanna study them and wanna believe them, i do agree with lot of these theories. And as i said there are a lot of unanswered questions, but these questions are a lot less than a hundred years ago. As we evolve more, with new technologies we will be able to reduce these questions to a even lesser amount.
So i say creations of universe was a complex phenomenon which needs even more research to explain
But u seem to think there was a creator, i have my first set of questions

Q1 WHY DID THIS CREATOR DECIDED TO CREATE UNIVERSE?
WHAT WAS HE DOING BEFORE THAT?
FROM WHERE DID THIS CREATOR COME FROM?

While answering these questions, i hope u believe in theory of evolution that man came from species of monkey and how diff animals evolved from ancient creatures.
If u does i would like u to explain:
Q2 WHY AFTER CREATING EARTH DID THIS CREATOR WAITED FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS TO CREATE HUMANS?

Now to answer ur remaining questions –
First of all it seems u believe that a superior being decide what is right? , what is wrong?,defined truth and morality.
But I think it was society who defined these parameters, the fact is what we believe is right or wrong is defined by the society.
Yes I do believe in truth, but I don know what u mean by this question.
I also don know what u mean by absolute morality- the fact is there are some things defined in the society as immoral and moral , as society evolves these things keep changing.
I mean there was a time once when men were considered as superior beings but as we evolved women gained same status as men in most of the societies.
Q3 So according to u god first defined that woman are inferior to men and then later rectified It.?
Similar arguments could be made for blacks and whites.

Yes I think it is wrong for a grown man to rape a baby. But what does this proves , any personal with rational thinking would identify it as a wrong act, god didn’t came and taught that it is supposed to be wrong, a grown man abusing a child to fulfill his needs is a horrific thing , as realized by all the societies.
U seem to think I absence of god that it would be right for ppl to commit these wrong acts. May be u can explain more why u think like that. I mean human do have a brain which can identify these acts as a hindrance to the existence of civilization.
Infact it seems that many people today who believe in religion today are committing horrific act in the name of your beloved god.

 

[Mr Average]

Q4 What are the origins of the universe or your thoughts on the same?

YOU SAID It is not possible to answer this question by any of three options u have listed.

As far as I understand, these are the only three logical options for anything that physically exists whatsoever. Lets talk about a rock. Either the rock has always existed, it came into being out of nothing, or something/someone made it. This applies to the universe. The fact that you cant/wont answer the question, in no way disallows the question. I ask you again, what do *you* think is the most likely scenario?

YOU SAID The fact is there is theory in science explaining this,

Please elaborate...Do tell me how this theory explains an answer to my question?

YOU SAID if i am correct it is known as a big bang theory. u can learn about this , there are various sites available explaining this.

Yes, I am familiar with the theory. However, mentioning a theory in your post as if the mere mention of it offers any kind of explanation whatsoever, does not cut it. Please elaborate about this theory, and how it links to your belief that there is no God.

YOU SAID But the fact is even though it is the most widely accepted, it probably will never be proved; consequentially, leaving a number of tough, unanswered questions.

These are the very questions we are discussing. As it answers none of them by your own admission, lets move on.

YOU SAID As it isn’t possible because of many limitations of human body, it isn’t possible to roam around universe to look for clues or stuff. But still SCIENCE provides a very accepting theories regarding universe and conditions resulting in formation of earth.

Tell me about them. Put them forth in this debate, so i can challenge them. If you dont share, how can we learn from each other and get to the truth of the issue?

YOU SAID Its ur right whether u wanna study them and wanna believe them, i do agree with lot of these theories.

Such as? Why do you?

YOU SAID Q1 WHY DID THIS CREATOR DECIDED TO CREATE UNIVERSE?
WHAT WAS HE DOING BEFORE THAT?
FROM WHERE DID THIS CREATOR COME FROM?

I do not know. How could I? I cannot even posit a guess.

Even in the deepest faith, there must always be an element of Agnosticism. If there is not, the arrogance that we think we know the mind of God comes about, which can lead to all sorts of horror. I can confidently say, that God is way above my understanding. He is the creator of the universe, and as such I can only offer a brief glimpse to you, and a small idea about him.

YOU SAID While answering these questions, i hope u believe in theory of evolution that man came from species of monkey and how diff animals evolved from ancient creatures.

I am right in the middle. I think I believe some parts, but not others. It is after all, a theory isnt it? I know parts have been proven, and I believe these bits, where things are theory only, I remain undecided.

YOU SAID Q2 WHY AFTER CREATING EARTH DID THIS CREATOR WAITED FOR MILLIONS OF YEARS TO CREATE HUMANS?

NO idea.

YOU SAID First of all it seems u believe that a superior being decide what is right? , what is wrong?,defined truth and morality.
But I think it was society who defined these parameters, the fact is what we believe is right or wrong is defined by the society.

So rape, child abuse, racism, theft, murder, wife-beating, bullying are only wrong because it is the *opinon* of the masses? Are you suggesting that these sorts of act are not bad in of themselves, we have merely decided they are bad?

This being the case, I squarely suggest that A-theism undermines morality.

YOU SAID Yes I do believe in truth, but I don know what u mean by this question.

If you do believe in truth, we share a common ground. Truth exists.

YOU SAID I also don know what u mean by absolute morality- the fact is there are some things defined in the society as immoral and moral , as society evolves these things keep changing.

In certain societies, eating human flesh is acceptable. In other societies in the past, the burning of jews in ovens was deemed acceptable. Does this mean that those actions were acceptable? Just because society says so? Surely, deep down, you have a sense of what is right and wrong, and no matter what the masses tell you, if they posit that rape is right, you will always know it is wrong?

a scenario for your reflection....If it was just you and I left in the world and everyone else is dead. Just you and I....

I pick up a hammer, walk over to you and smash your head in. Is this right or wrong, and why?

YOU SAID Q3 So according to u god first defined that woman are inferior to men and then later rectified It.?
Similar arguments could be made for blacks and whites.

Not sure I follow. Are you asking me or telling me? What is it you want to know?

YOU SAID Yes I think it is wrong for a grown man to rape a baby.

Why? Because society says so?

But what does this proves , any personal with rational thinking would identify it as a wrong act,

Why? Because society says so?

YOU SAID god didn’t came and taught that it is supposed to be wrong, a grown man abusing a child to fulfill his needs is a horrific thing

Sorry, but....Why? Because society says so?


YOU SAID U seem to think I absence of god that it would be right for ppl to commit these wrong acts. May be u can explain more why u think like that. I mean human do have a brain which can identify these acts as a hindrance to the existence of civilization.

No, its simply survival of the fittest isnt it? I want to smash your face in and you dont want me to. Your choice against my choice. Simple as that. No right and wrong to get in the way? Is that how you see it?

YOU SAID Infact it seems that many people today who believe in religion today are committing horrific act in the name of your beloved god.

When hooligans riot at a football ground, is it the fault of the football clubs? When a guy that works in McDonalds beats his boss up, is it because McDonalds food is crap, and his boss doesnt pay him enough? The roots for violence and hatred are the fault of man, not God. Merely symptoms of mans decision to go his own way, and live witholut God, or Godly values.

Anyway, who says that these acts are horrific? The majority?

I will expound more on my beliefs in the next post. Please can you clearly explain why A-theism is the better view than Belief in God?

In Peace, Mr Average

 

[crappycraperson]

Well i want to explain my views but i will have to answer so many questions posted by u.

First of all regarding the universe thing, i have noted the questions posed by you, i will address this issue in a separate post. i still believe it cant be answered but those 3 options

BUT U SAID: Even in the deepest faith, there must always be an element of Agnosticism. If there is not, the arrogance that we think we know the mind of God comes about, which can lead to all sorts of horror. I can confidently say that God is way above my understanding. He is the creator of the universe, and as such I can only offer a brief glimpse to you, and a small idea about him

That’s exactly my point about the universe , its so complex that it is outside the limitations of humans to study it . How are we supposed to study a whole galaxy? But i will still post the existing theories in my separate universe post. Moving on..............

U SAID: I am right in the middle. I think I believe some parts, but not others. It is after all, a theory isn’t it? I know parts have been proven, and I believe these bits, where things are theory only, I remain undecided.

Well according to ur rules , one can be in the middle , either u believe it or not?
If not? Explain why u choose to be so ignorant to not to believe what i think is a well proven theory. ( don ask me to explain this theory now )

Now about the morality issue:
i ask these questions:
Do you think it is beyond society's capability to invent morality that changes with time as it evolves?

Do you think that not believing in god would cause you not to be able to distinguish between right and wrong?

What i want to highlight here is that human are supposed to most intelligent beings on earth. They can distinguish whether raping a child is a hindrance to evolution of society or not.
In the past, ppl made mistakes by not giving same status to woman or blacks. but most societies realized this and rectified it.
BUT what i ask u is since u think god created rules of morality
Why in the past these rules of morality didn’t affect ppl? What god hadn’t granted enough morality to them to make them realize abusing fellow human on basis of color is wrong? Or did he grant it it to only few ppl who thought racism was wrong back then?
The fact is it wasn’t god but struggle by ppl like martin luther king which changed the society opinion. The fact is society do make sometimes wrong choices but with period of time rectifies it.
- -- - - - - - - - - - -- - - - -- - - - - - - - - -- - - - - - - - - -

Now to explain why i think why A-theism is the better view than Belief in God?

The biggest fact is u have just chosen to believe in existence of god. There is no proof what so ever to prove existence of a superior being.
u ask me to explain why i think Atheism is better .
Fact - i do not have it. Anyway u cant prove a thing that actually doesnt exist, doesnt exist.
It is up to to the believers to prove that there is a god.
i know now u r gonna say : ooh i cant prove god exists , its beyond me, i am a simple man .
That says it all , in ur opening post also ,u only post some questions and make pts which according to u make one believes god exists. These pts seems are:
1.creation of universe and earth : as is said i will address this in a separate post
2.morality- i have explained my views on this is this post , i guess we will debate this a little more after this
3. life - according to u every new born baby is born for a specific plan or something. well please don tell me that u don believe that in the scientific process that describes how a new life is created by mating of a man and women.
according to u god grants life to every new born. how does this explain test tube baby?

Separate pts I think I should address
4. about avtars, prophets or messiahs- I do not dispute whether a person named Jesus existed or not? I do not dispute whether persons named Krishna, ram existed or not?
But I don think they wrere messengers or avtars of god or something.
According to my opinion these persons born among simple ppl. Who after witnessing the good actions done by them interpreted them as god or avtars of god. The fact is if some one like mother Teresa was born in those times she would have been given same status.
5. majority view: I believe this is the reason why most of us believe in god because it is the majority held opinion in society. I myself illustrated it by saying that most of ppl goes by rules defined by the society. And society from past has included majority believing in god.
The fact is ppl in past had every right to believe in a superior being, they had so many phenomenon unexplained: birth of a child, changing weathers, other natural phenomenon most of which has been explained and others will be as we evolve. But unfortunately ppl still carried the delusion about god through the years even though mankind explained a lot, misinterpretation of ppl like jesus strengthen this society view. And most of the ppl blindly started believing in god
Mainly because most of them were weak or are weak, they need to think that there is superior being looking after them , that their life isn’t useless, or a god could fulfill their wishes, or they need the concept of hell and heaven so that they could refrain themselves from making mistakes.
i ll elaborate on pts 4 and 5 more as u ask me questions.

 

[Mr Average]

YOU SAID---That’s exactly my point about the universe , its so complex that it is outside the limitations of humans to study it . How are we supposed to study a whole galaxy? But i will still post the existing theories in my separate universe post. Moving on..............

I eagerly await them. Thank you.
----------------------------------------------------------------------

YOU SAID---Well according to ur rules , one can be in the middle , either u believe it or not?
If not? Explain why u choose to be so ignorant to not to believe what i think is a well proven theory. ( don ask me to explain this theory now )

I HAD PREVIOUSLY SAID--- I know parts have been proven, and I believe these bits, where things are theory only, I remain undecided.

There, I believe what is proven with regards to evolution. If it is not proven, I am undecided. I do not reject it, merely am not sure. By the way, I doubt anyone *chooses* to be ignorant.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

YOU SAID---Do you think it is beyond society's capability to invent morality that changes with time as it evolves?

I believe that society can indeed form a moral framework, which can indeed evolve with time. However, any moral framework is normally based around Godly values; dont kill, dont steal, dont harm, do unto others as you would wish done to yourself, etc etc. These are clearly Godly values. When society veers away from these sorts of thing, and starts to treat morality as simply a decision, up to the individual etc, society starts to appear cold, distant, no-one cares, such is life etc. Societies decision on what is right and wrong, is always based on the fallacy which is the "Appeal to the majority". This is the false argument that anything posited or claimed or discussed, is right if the majority believe or agree with it. This being the case, please can you explain how societies definition of right and wrong, is the correct one?

YOU SAID---Do you think that not believing in god would cause you not to be able to distinguish between right and wrong?

We *all* are imbibed with God's nature. God moves within us and through us. The level of this, is simply down to the decisions we make and how freely we offer total submission to the will of God. Morality is understood at a root level, I believe, because our nature is also Godly. Kindness, love, compassion, warmth etc resounds in the deepest parts of us, and reflects what we truly are. If you believe that giving a meal to a starving stranger is "right" just because society says so, or "because it is for the evolution of society", then I feel you are missing out on the truth of the issue. When you offer a meal to a starving stranger, you are offering the kindness and charity our God offers us. You are reflecting him and his light, directly through you. You would not do it JUST because the "majority" say it is the right thing to do. Or would you? Think about what part of you feels the plight of the stranger, and reacts to it.

YOU SAID---What i want to highlight here is that human are supposed to most intelligent beings on earth. They can distinguish whether raping a child is a hindrance to evolution of society or not

Can you explain this to me? How is the happiness of the child more important than the happiness of the rapist?

YOU SAID---Why in the past these rules of morality didn’t affect ppl? What god hadn’t granted enough morality to them to make them realize abusing fellow human on basis of color is wrong? Or did he grant it it to only few ppl who thought racism was wrong back then?

You are blessed with free will. Most people are. You and they have choices on how to behave, think and live your life. If you want to swear and spit at people with different coloured skin, you can. God will allow you to do this, this is your choice, as it was theirs. There is no escape from your actions, and you become and live what you do and think.

They either ignored God, turned from God, were unaware of God or have misconstrued god's love for mankind.

YOU SAID---The fact is it wasn’t god but struggle by ppl like martin luther king which changed the society opinion. The fact is society do make sometimes wrong choices but with period of time rectifies it.

Martin Luther King was a self-confessed man of God.

YOU SAID---Fact - i do not have it. Anyway u cant prove a thing that actually doesnt exist, doesnt exist. It is up to to the believers to prove that there is a god.

I agree, this is called the "Burden of proof". In this case, we are not arguing to prove or disprove something, merely debating on worldview.

YOU SAID---1.creation of universe and earth : as is said i will address this in a separate post

Ok

YOU SAID---2.morality- i have explained my views on this is this post , i guess we will debate this a little more after this

It is my feeling that you are a moral man, living a moral life as best you can. I put it to you, that this is because you are more in touch with God than you know. Your kindness and your actions are not simply the result of a blind-following of agreement with whatever the majority thinks is right.

YOU SAID---3. life - according to u every new born baby is born for a specific plan or something.

Yes, that is exactly what I believe. Every human being is deeply significant in the eyes of the father. *IF* the world could really understand this at the deepest level, things would change so much you would not believe it. We could stop worrying about the lies of the world and start believing the real truth.

YOU SAID---well please don tell me that u don believe that in the scientific process that describes how a new life is created by mating of a man and women. according to u god grants life to every new born. how does this explain test tube baby?

Simple, God grants it. Believe me, if he did not, it would not happen. Whether it is "right", is not my decision.

YOU SAID---4. about avtars, prophets or messiahs- I do not dispute whether a person named Jesus existed or not? I do not dispute whether persons named Krishna, ram existed or not?

Why dont you dispute these? Surely a man of science wants PROOF?

YOU SAID---And society from past has included majority believing in god.
The fact is ppl in past had every right to believe in a superior being, they had so many phenomenon unexplained: birth of a child, changing weathers, other natural phenomenon most of which has been explained and others will be as we evolve. But unfortunately ppl still carried the delusion about god through the years even though mankind explained a lot, misinterpretation of ppl like jesus strengthen this society view. And most of the ppl blindly started believing in god

Please explain clearly how a baby being born links to your belief in evolution? How did we go from non-sentient miniscule minerals and chemicals into a conscious, self-aware being that can love, make babies, cry, listen to music, dance, look at the stars, discuss the highest codes of philosophy and politics?

YOU SAID---Mainly because most of them were weak or are weak, they need to think that there is superior being looking after them , that their life isn’t useless, or a god could fulfill their wishes, or they need the concept of hell and heaven so that they could refrain themselves from making mistakes. i ll elaborate on pts 4 and 5 more as u ask me questions.

This is an old stereotypical point. Believing in God is a symptom of weakness or ignorance. I disagree fully, but can see how these things could have come about.

Quite often, when life is bad and we are struggling, God gently shakes our roots inside and whispers the truth to us. We may find ourselves turning to God or thinking about the subject more. This is natural and not weakness. Turning to God when we are down is simply confessing the truth that man cannot fully live without God. Instead of having money, sex, possessions, lust, greed, false prophets(politicians), scientists as our rock, we have God at our centre, as our rock and our truth. The deepest truth, the most caring love that can be expressed or felt. The lies of the world disappear and are burnt up in the fire of eternal truth.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

You have missed a few of my questions. For clarity and focus, I have listed them here so we do not lose track of what still needs to be addressed.

----------------------------------------------------------------------

YOU SAID The fact is there is theory in science explaining this,

I SAID---Please elaborate...Do tell me how this theory explains an answer to my question?

NO ANSWER THUS FAR FROM crappycraperson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Mr Average]

YOU SAID As it isn’t possible because of many limitations of human body, it isn’t possible to roam around universe to look for clues or stuff. But still SCIENCE provides a very accepting theories regarding universe and conditions resulting in formation of earth.

I SAID---Tell me about them. Put them forth in this debate, so i can challenge them. If you dont share, how can we learn from each other and get to the truth of the issue?

NO ANSWER THUS FAR FROM crappycraperson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

YOU SAID First of all it seems u believe that a superior being decide what is right? , what is wrong?,defined truth and morality.
But I think it was society who defined these parameters, the fact is what we believe is right or wrong is defined by the society.

I SAID---So rape, child abuse, racism, theft, murder, wife-beating, bullying are only wrong because it is the *opinion* of the masses? Are you suggesting that these sorts of act are not bad in of themselves, we have merely decided they are bad?

NO ANSWER THUS FAR FROM crappycraperson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

YOU SAID I also don know what u mean by absolute morality- the fact is there are some things defined in the society as immoral and moral , as society evolves these things keep changing.

I SAID---In certain societies, eating human flesh is acceptable. In other societies in the past, the burning of Jews in ovens was deemed acceptable. Does this mean that those actions were acceptable? Just because society says so? Surely, deep down, you have a sense of what is right and wrong, and no matter what the masses tell you, if they posit that rape is right, you will always know it is wrong?

NO ANSWER THUS FAR FROM crappycraperson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

I SAID---a scenario for your reflection....If it was just you and I left in the world and everyone else is dead. Just you and I....

I pick up a hammer, walk over to you and smash your head in. Is this right or wrong, and why?

NO ANSWER THUS FAR FROM crappycraperson

----------------------------------------------------------------------

YOU SAID Yes I think it is wrong for a grown man to rape a baby.

Why? Because society says so?

YOU SAID But what does this proves , any personal with rational thinking would identify it as a wrong act,

Why? Because society says so?

YOU SAID god didn’t came and taught that it is supposed to be wrong, a grown man abusing a child to fulfill his needs is a horrific thing

Sorry, but....Why? Because society says so?

NO ANSWERS TO ANY OF THESE THUS FAR FROM crappycraperson

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This is getting interesting. I look forward to your next post and thank you for giving me the opportunity to discuss these important issues.

In Peace, Mr Average.

 

[Mr Average]

More on my side of the story~

We are all part of the divine, every single one of us. Sometimes when there is much dust in our eyes, or if are lives are filled with bustle and non stop on the go, it can be difficult to believe or even to comprehend that there is such a thing as the divine, and that we; yes, little old us might be a part of it.

But we are, and the truth of this and the consequences of internalising this truth can be very freeing and help us to see things and the world itself in a clearer and brighter light.

You are not just your actions.
You are not just your feelings.
You are not just your past.
You are a child of the divine creator and literally made from the stars.

your worth is immeasurable, and is not calculated by the divine using any of the following...
money
sex
looks
goods
acheivements
family
friends
emotions
clothes
cars
politics
etc

The divine father knew you before you were even born, and knitted you together in your mothers womb. You are not an accident of timeless processes, your heart is more than a muscle. *You* and everyone else are God's wish to know himself and yourself incarnated.

For your reflection and taken from the Christian Bible...

My Child…

You may not know me, but I know everything about you …Psalm 139:1

I know when you sit down and when you rise up …Psalm 139:2

I am familiar with all your ways …Psalm 139:3

Even the very hairs on your head are numbered …Matthew 10:29-31

For you were made in my image …Genesis 1:27

In me you live and move and have your being …Acts 17:28

For you are my offspring …Acts 17:28

I knew you even before you were conceived …Jeremiah 1:4-5

I chose you when I planned creation …Ephesians 1:11-12

You were not a mistake, for all your days are written in my book …Psalm 139:15-16

I determined the exact time of your birth and where you would live …Acts 17:26

You are fearfully and wonderfully made …Psalm 139:14

I knit you together in your mother's womb …Psalm 139:13

And brought you forth on the day you were born …Psalm 71:6

I have been misrepresented by those who don't know me …John 8:41-44

I am not distant and angry, but am the complete expression of love …1 John 4:16

And it is my desire to lavish my love on you …1 John 3:1

Simply because you are my child and I am your father …1 John 3:1

I offer you more than your earthly father ever could …Matthew 7:11

For I am the perfect father …Matthew 5:48

Every good gift that you receive comes from my hand …James 1:17

For I am your provider and I meet all your needs …Matthew 6:31-33

My plan for your future has always been filled with hope …Jeremiah 29:11

Because I love you with an everlasting love …Jeremiah 31:3

My thoughts toward you are countless as the sand on the seashore ...Psalms 139:17-18

And I rejoice over you with singing …Zephaniah 3:17

I will never stop doing good to you …Jeremiah 32:40

For you are my treasured possession …Exodus 19:5

I desire to establish you with all my heart and all my soul …Jeremiah 32:41

And I want to show you great and marvelous things …Jeremiah 33:3

If you seek me with all your heart, you will find me …Deuteronomy 4:29

Delight in me and I will give you the desires of your heart …Psalm 37:4

For it is I who gave you those desires …Philippians 2:13

I am able to do more for you than you could possibly imagine …Ephesians 3:20

For I am your greatest encourager …2 Thessalonians 2:16-17

I am also the Father who comforts you in all your troubles …2 Corinthians 1:3-4

When you are brokenhearted, I am close to you …Psalm 34:18

As a shepherd carries a lamb, I have carried you close to my heart …Isaiah 40:11

One day I will wipe away every tear from your eyes …Revelation 21:3-4

And I'll take away all the pain you have suffered on this earth …Revelation 21:3-4

I am your Father, and I love you even as I love my son, Jesus …John 17:23

For in Jesus, my love for you is revealed …John 17:26

He is the exact representation of my being …Hebrews 1:3

He came to demonstrate that I am for you, not against you …Romans 8:31

And to tell you that I am not counting your sins …2 Corinthians 5:18-19

Jesus died so that you and I could be reconciled …2 Corinthians 5:18-19

His death was the ultimate expression of my love for you …1 John 4:10

I gave up everything I loved that I might gain your love …Romans 8:31-32

If you receive the gift of my son Jesus, you receive me …1 John 2:23

And nothing will ever separate you from my love again …Romans 8:38-39

Come home and I'll throw the biggest party heaven has ever seen …Luke 15:7

I have always been Father, and will always be Father …Ephesians 3:14-15

My question is…Will you be my child? …John 1:12-13

I am waiting for you …Luke 15:11-32
Love, Your Dad.
Almighty God



In Peace, Mr Average

 

[Wolfboy]

there is no god and never has been. It has always been a need to explain and the less we know for sure the easier it is to give birth to a god. Douglas Adams gave a speech on this and other subjects. I will quote a little:

Where does the idea of God come from? Well, I think we have a very skewed point of view on an awful lot of things, but let’s try and see where our point of view comes from. Imagine early man. Early man is, like everything else, an evolved creature and he finds himself in a world that he’s begun to take a little charge of; he’s begun to be a tool-maker, a changer of his environment with the tools that he’s made and he makes tools, when he does, in order to make changes in his environment. To give an example of the way man operates compared to other animals, consider speciation, which, as we know, tends to occur when a small group of animals gets separated from the rest of the herd by some geological upheaval, population pressure, food shortage or whatever and finds itself in a new environment with maybe something different going on. Take a very simple example; maybe a bunch of animals suddenly finds itself in a place where the weather is rather colder. We know that in a few generations those genes which favour a thicker coat will have come to the fore and we’ll come and we’ll find that the animals have now got thicker coats. Early man, who’s a tool maker, doesn’t have to do this: he can inhabit an extraordinarily wide range of habitats on earth, from tundra to the Gobi Desert—he even manages to live in New York for heaven’s sake—and the reason is that when he arrives in a new environment he doesn’t have to wait for several generations; if he arrives in a colder environment and sees an animal that has those genes which favour a thicker coat, he says “I’ll have it off him”. Tools have enabled us to think intentionally, to make things and to do things to create a world that fits us better. Now imagine an early man surveying his surroundings at the end of a happy day’s tool making. He looks around and he sees a world which pleases him mightily: behind him are mountains with caves in—mountains are great because you can go and hide in the caves and you are out of the rain and the bears can’t get you; in front of him there’s the forest—it’s got nuts and berries and delicious food; there's a stream going by, which is full of water—water’s delicious to drink, you can float your boats in it and do all sorts of stuff with it; here’s cousin Ug and he’s caught a mammoth—mammoth’s are great, you can eat them, you can wear their coats, you can use their bones to create weapons to catch other mammoths. I mean this is a great world, it’s fantastic. But our early man has a moment to reflect and he thinks to himself, ‘well, this is an interesting world that I find myself in’ and then he asks himself a very treacherous question, a question which is totally meaningless and fallacious, but only comes about because of the nature of the sort of person he is, the sort of person he has evolved into and the sort of person who has thrived because he thinks this particular way. Man the maker looks at his world and says ‘So who made this then?’ Who made this? — you can see why it’s a treacherous question. Early man thinks, ‘Well, because there’s only one sort of being I know about who makes things, whoever made all this must therefore be a much bigger, much more powerful and necessarily invisible, one of me and because I tend to be the strong one who does all the stuff, he’s probably male’. And so we have the idea of a god. Then, because when we make things we do it with the intention of doing something with them, early man asks himself , ‘If he made it, what did he make it for?’ Now the real trap springs, because early man is thinking, ‘This world fits me very well. Here are all these things that support me and feed me and look after me; yes, this world fits me nicely’ and he reaches the inescapable conclusion that whoever made it, made it for him.

This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, ‘This is an interesting world I find myself in—an interesting hole I find myself in—fits me rather neatly, doesn’t it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!’

 

[Wolfboy]

and on that bombshell, i'm off to get pissed

AMEN

 

[crappycraperson]

YOU SAID As it isn’t possible because of many limitations of human body, it isn’t possible to roam around universe to look for clues or stuff. But still SCIENCE provides a very accepting theories regarding universe and conditions resulting in formation of earth.

I SAID---Tell me about them. Put them forth in this debate, so i can challenge them. If you dont share, how can we learn from each other and get to the truth of the issue?

i told u , i will address the whole universe issue in a seprate post

YOU SAID First of all it seems u believe that a superior being decide what is right? , what is wrong?,defined truth and morality.
But I think it was society who defined these parameters, the fact is what we believe is right or wrong is defined by the society.

I SAID---So rape, child abuse, racism, theft, murder, wife-beating, bullying are only wrong because it is the *opinion* of the masses? Are you suggesting that these sorts of act are not bad in of themselves, we have merely decided they are bad?

i think i may have jumped a gun a bit when i said majority view is always the right one, its not always the case.
but the fact is society do play an very imp role in shaping one's opinion.
u would probably agree granting woman an uneaual status is a wrong thing
now u and i were born in india and uk , and in our socieies women were given almost equal status, we affliated to that view
while someone maybe born is saudi arbia or iran , there majority of society don give equal status to woman .
many ppl born there not all but many affliate the same view . what god havent granted them enough morality or something?
the fact is they are bought up in a society who teaches them this tese things and most of simple ppl follows them and only a few are able to rise above and make out it is not right.

YOU SAID I also don know what u mean by absolute morality- the fact is there are some things defined in the society as immoral and moral , as society evolves these things keep changing.

I SAID---In certain societies, eating human flesh is acceptable. In other societies in the past, the burning of Jews in ovens was deemed acceptable. Does this mean that those actions were acceptable? Just because society says so? Surely, deep down, you have a sense of what is right and wrong, and no matter what the masses tell you, if they posit that rape is right, you will always know it is wrong?

i know it may be a hard thing to accept but yes society opinion goes a long way in shaping one's opinion.
as u ur self said in some societies human flesh eating is acceptable, what god forgot to grqant morailty to these ppl ?
no most of us are born simple without any sense of world. basically what our parents and society tell us , we accept
as i said only a few ppl are able to think beyond these barriers and\bring the change required

I SAID---a scenario for your reflection....If it was just you and I left in the world and everyone else is dead. Just you and I....

I pick up a hammer, walk over to you and smash your head in. Is this right or wrong, and why?

NO, it is wrong
but i make that out not because of some god granted thing
but in simpler words,
i send this scenario to brain
it processsed it and concluded that only a mad person would committ such a act
if i had some deformity in my brain , i may have said it was right

YOU SAID Yes I think it is wrong for a grown man to rape a baby.

Why? Because society says so?

YOU SAID But what does this proves , any personal with rational thinking would identify it as a wrong act,

Why? Because society says so?

YOU SAID god didn’t came and taught that it is supposed to be wrong, a grown man abusing a child to fulfill his needs is a horrific thing

Sorry, but....Why? Because society says so?

YEAH , a small part of it because society say it so
but major reason is, again in simpler words
i send this scenario to my brain
using that i make out it as a wrong act
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