excellent piece on the nevilles

mancred

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Agree 100%

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top article

"That's how we shall know them. That's how we can identify the prawn sandwich merchants and the neophytes and the know-nothings who have colonised our game."
Oliver Holt

never a truer word etc....


<img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
I read a few pieces from Oliver Holt and they all seem to be honest with none of the usual, lets jump on the bandwagon and criticise us at the slightest chancejournalism you usually get with the other Muppets.
 
Totally agree with the Blanc, RVN and Veron.

Yet if Manutd hopes rely on a common defender( G Nev) and on the most stupid full back ever to wear the red devils shirt (P Nev) then we are in trouble.

I agree with you The nevilles have heart something Man utd's star studded team do not have.

But a common player is a common player,you can shake the battling spirit out of a star but not the talent out of a donkey( P Nev)
 
I like most of it, but we've let go of countless Mancs from our youth setup because they weren't good enough. I think misplaced loyalty has been a big problem, because it breeds complacency, they don't have to fight for their contract or their place, and don't fight at all, like Giggs in that game. Both Gary and Phil had a job as captain in that game, and both gave no leadership. Being Red isn't enough, there's a lot of kids who are Red and would love to play for United, but they're not good enough, sadly a lot of them are in our U19's.
 
If P Nev can play for United so can I :p <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
 
yeah ....but Phil Nevill in the heart of midfield isnt going to win us many championships . The point about the bench is the most valid one . What has Fergie and co been doing these last few years ?????O`Shea , Brown and that it really coming hrough the system......
 
And again

"That's how we shall know them. That's how we can identify the prawn sandwich merchants and the neophytes and the know-nothings who have colonised our game."
Oliver Holt
 
I don’t trust Oliver Holt. He was the journo who took great joy in writing the “Fergie’s empire is crumbling” piece in the Times last season. He’s almost single handedly led the “Veron is crap” campaign. I suspect if you go back through his pieces you’ll find anti-Neville bollox also when it suited him. I agree with what he writes about the Neville’s caring about the club & I’ve said elsewhere that United need to retain a youth policy when SAF goes so as to retain a number of first team players who have an emotional attachment to the club. To use this as a premise to criticise the international players is just bollox – there isn’t any logical argument. United have always had a mix of players who have come up through the club & top international signings – look at Sir Matt’s teams.

The whole team were bad on Saturday with the honourable exception of Scholesy and possibly Ole (one of our international signings who supposedly doesn't give a toss). I suspect Holt is one of several journos who have been on the end of a tongue lashing from SAF in the fearsome post match press conferences. He’s got his own agenda which hasn’t got our clubs interests at its centre. We can make our own minds up about players as fans. We don’t need journos like Holt trying to create factions within the club.
 
Originally posted by mancred:
<strong>Agree 100%

<a href="http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/sporttop/page.cfm?objectid=12359322&method=full&siteid=50143" target="_blank">http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/sporttop/page.cfm?objectid=12359322&method=full&siteid =50143</a></strong><hr></blockquote>

Agree about G. Neville. He just had a bad day. Phil however is not good enough and I guess its not his fault. He is being put in over his head.
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I agree 100% about the importance of the Nevilles to the cause and that they do get treted unfairly but the same goes for the foreign legion imo.
 
Originally posted by kf:
<strong>I don’t trust Oliver Holt. He was the journo who took great joy in writing the “Fergie’s empire is crumbling” piece in the Times last season. He’s almost single handedly led the “Veron is crap” campaign. I suspect if you go back through his pieces you’ll find anti-Neville bollox also when it suited him. I agree with what he writes about the Neville’s caring about the club & I’ve said elsewhere that United need to retain a youth policy when SAF goes so as to retain a number of first team players who have an emotional attachment to the club. To use this as a premise to criticise the international players is just bollox – there isn’t any logical argument. United have always had a mix of players who have come up through the club & top international signings – look at Sir Matt’s teams.

The whole team were bad on Saturday with the honourable exception of Scholesy and possibly Ole (one of our international signings who supposedly doesn't give a toss). I suspect Holt is one of several journos who have been on the end of a tongue lashing from SAF in the fearsome post match press conferences. He’s got his own agenda which hasn’t got our clubs interests at its centre. We can make our own minds up about players as fans. We don’t need journos like Holt trying to create factions within the club.</strong><hr></blockquote>


he's a journalist. of course you shouldn't trust him.

the only papers worth reading for footy IMO are the grauniad and the telegraph. . .and even then they do have some tossers writing for them as well.
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"Those last three are helping to turn United into a team that resembles the Chelsea side of a few years back."

"This United team doesn't like its bread and butter any more. It chokes on it. And asks for another slice of cake."

not very comforting thoughts, and though quite melodramatic they seem to hold some truth....
 
I don't think you would find many supporters having a go at G.Neville. Maybe on Saturday afternoon, but that was just Knee-Jerk.

Phil had aan awful time. If he isn't comfortable playing in that (out of) position:

1) he wouldn't have posted the comment stating that he would like the midfield position on a regular basis.

or

2) he should make his feeling resolutely clear to SAF instead of keeping quiet just to get a first team game.

I'm sorry, if he was sua tru red, he would do what he thinks is best for the club and complement the team instead of jeperdising it.

Know your place Phil.
 
Originally posted by markorm:
<strong>I'm sorry, if he was sua tru red, he would do what he thinks is best for the club and complement the team instead of jeperdising it.
Know your place Phil.</strong><hr></blockquote>

So you mean he should have refused to play in midfield last Saturday for the good of the club <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />
Who would you have put in the starting line up instead of him?
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Good article.

On a related issue, I was speaking to someone whose has a contact with close involvement in the Nike - United deal.

There have apparently been some raised eyebrows about the Jason Ferguson connection again, and the way some transfers are allegedly constructed such that Jason Ferguson benefits.

It's public knowledge there was an allegation that one of the reasons Greening was transferred was that he refused to sign with Jason Ferguson. And this source has heard it said that pressure was put on Fortune to sign with Jason Ferguson.

If this is true, I would like to know to what extent, if any, United's transfer policy is being shaped by the needs of Jason Ferguson's business interests.

I would like to know if there are possible conflicts of interest here which could quite innocently be a contributory factor in us having the weakest United squad in years?

Anyone else feel a bit uncomfortable about this?
 
Originally posted by sin65:
<strong>And again

"That's how we shall know them. That's how we can identify the prawn sandwich merchants and the neophytes and the know-nothings who have colonised our game."
Oliver Holt</strong><hr></blockquote>


Exactly.
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Originally posted by mancred:
<strong>


Exactly.</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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OHH Grow up will you?

We all love the club and the critism comes out of pain and NOT Hate

I would support the team even if we had 11 P Nev and 5 Forlans to replace them

But Hiding the truth to protect our players doesnt show our loyalty but our STUPIDITY.

The club needs a shake up, SAF, G BEST AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. Shutting up is only putting weight to the red devil's decline
 
Originally posted by Julian Denny:
<strong>Great writer, Oliver Holt. Always enjoyed and largely agreed with all his articles on matters United</strong><hr></blockquote>
My problem with Holt stems from his reporting of games I went to last year. I know you and I are on opposite sides of the Seba Veron debate that’s fair enough. IMO Holt made his mind up about Veron very early last year and every report he wrote was angled to support his view. I’m the first to admit that Seba had some ‘mares last year and when Holt reported that he gave a goal away that he did give away that was OK. But when he reports the good games as if they are the same and the excellent games with words like “a suprisingly effective game from £28m misfit…” I started to think he had things on his mind other than just reporting the game. It will be interesting to see how he reports last nights game. IMO Seba had a poor first 20 minutes and then ran the game. Scored one, made one nearly got a brilliant third. What’s the betting that Holt concentrates on the first 20 minutes?
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This United team doesn't like its bread and butter any more. It chokes on it. And asks for another slice of cake. <hr></blockquote>
Ouch!
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Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>OHH Grow up will you?

We all love the club and the critism comes out of pain and NOT Hate

I would support the team even if we had 11 P Nev and 5 Forlans to replace them

But Hiding the truth to protect our players doesnt show our loyalty but our STUPIDITY.

The club needs a shake up, SAF, G BEST AND EVERYONE KNOWS THAT. Shutting up is only putting weight to the red devil's decline</strong><hr></blockquote>

It's a shame not ever player at the club can be a genius, but every club NEEDS a Phil Neville. He never gets a consistent run in the team. He never plays in the same position two games on the trot, and then you wonder why he doesn't emerge as man of the match. Get real!
He's an honest player, who does his job well 99 times out of a hundred, and will play anywhere. He's United to the bone, which is more than can be said of some of the recent signings.
If you want to look for a reason for the "decline", if that is what it is, rather than a transition. There are a lot of players far more to blame than Phil Neville :mad:
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Have you ever thought that despite being SAF's Golden child he had NEVER won a regular place? I mean to be bullied out by a has been at the end of his career and by a french scarlet ( Silvestre at his first yrs at OT) is ridiculous

Have you noticed that under the only decent England's Manager ( in the past 5 yrs) P Neville has been exiled from the english setup?This despite all his experience and reputation ( Eriksson prefared Powell, Bridges and W brown over P Nev)

The facts is that the heart is not enough to succeed at OT ( if so SAF would rely on the millions real Manutd supporters and stop buying players) You need talent. Talent which P Nev HAD NEVER SHOWN AT OT
 
The P Nev's supporters have one argument in common.

P Nev really loves Manutd. So do I

P Nev can play loads of positions. Even I can play (shit) in loads of positions

The facts are that He is not at Manutd's level and he is NOT Giving the competition needed to motivate the other players. Look at AC MILAN and REAL, their strength of depth is terrific and they can replace stars with stars.

About the transition thing OH God this is amusing. In the football world replacing your stars ( Cole, Stam and Yorke) with half decent players (Forlan and Blanc) is called weakening the team and not transition.

Get up from your wonderland ppl this is the second year that we are crap and the performances show that we are on the decline
 
I find this attachement by ManUtd fans to players like Phil Neville quite quaint. Phil would struggle to get on the bench of teams like Como or Osasuna and would get hounded out by boos and whistles in my own modest River Plate.

Despite all the "richest club in the world" hype, you're still a provincial club at heart.
 
Originally posted by scalisto:

Despite all the "richest club in the world" hype, you're still a provincial club at heart.[/QB]<hr></blockquote>

Not provincial, mate. Mancunian.
We are a Mancunian club and that's what makes us special. The more we depart from our true fan-base and stop relying on our own players, the worse it gets.
Ask a Barca fan if he wants Catalans in the team, and you'll get one answer.
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Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>Have you ever thought that despite being SAF's Golden child he had NEVER won a regular place? I mean to be bullied out by a has been at the end of his career and by a french scarlet ( Silvestre at his first yrs at OT) is ridiculous

Have you noticed that under the only decent England's Manager ( in the past 5 yrs) P Neville has been exiled from the english setup?This despite all his experience and reputation ( Eriksson prefared Powell, Bridges and W brown over P Nev)

The facts is that the heart is not enough to succeed at OT ( if so SAF would rely on the millions real Manutd supporters and stop buying players) You need talent. Talent which P Nev HAD NEVER SHOWN AT OT</strong><hr></blockquote>


United seem to have done alright in the past 6 or so years since Neville has been playing for us. I bet he has more medals in his cabinet than any other player at any other club in the country. He's certainly got more medals than any of the other non-United players keeping him out of the England team.

Devilish, if you were actually a mancunian, as you claim (yeah right), there is no way you would be dissing having local lads in the team.
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Scalisto seems to think that hounding players out with boos and whistles seems to present some kind of proof that there is something wrong with those Manchester United fans who support Phil Neville.

Where did you learn your logic from? The Argentinian economic system? Your `argument` can be placed in the same basket case as the value of the Argentinian currency.

I, for one, happen to think that supporters who hound players (not supporters who criticise players by giving reasons that have some basis in fact)out of clubs are cowards who need to get a life instead of pursuing vendettas for whatever reason that emanates from their small, unbalanced minds.

<img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" /> <img src="graemlins/devil.gif" border="0" alt="[Devil]" />
 
Originally posted by mancred:
<strong>


United seem to have done alright in the past 6 or so years since Neville has been playing for us. I bet he has more medals in his cabinet than any other player at any other club in the country. He's certainly got more medals than any of the other non-United players keeping him out of the England team.

Devilish, if you were actually a mancunian, as you claim (yeah right), there is no way you would be dissing having local lads in the team.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Loads of our youth teams are Mancs and won't get anywhere near our first team. Because players like Phil are picked ahead of them. I'd rather have Stewart (when fit) play in CM ahead of Phil, and I'd rather Tierney and Roche as full backs than Phil.
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Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>
Even I can play (shit) in loads of positions
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Bollocks! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by devilish:
<strong>The P Nev's supporters have one argument in common.

P Nev really loves Manutd. So do I

P Nev can play loads of positions. Even I can play (shit) in loads of positions

The facts are that He is not at Manutd's level and he is NOT Giving the competition needed to motivate the other players. Look at AC MILAN and REAL, their strength of depth is terrific and they can replace stars with stars.

About the transition thing OH God this is amusing. In the football world replacing your stars ( Cole, Stam and Yorke) with half decent players (Forlan and Blanc) is called weakening the team and not transition.

Get up from your wonderland ppl this is the second year that we are crap and the performances show that we are on the decline</strong><hr></blockquote>

Sorry Devlish, you are living in cloud cuckoo land! Players like PN will never pull up any roots, but EVERY team has players who are honest footballers, whether it happens to be Real, or AC.
They don't have a bench full of superstars. How many players on the bench at either AC, or Real have you ACTUALLY seen. Very few, like everyone else.
And in the football world, replacing Yorke,(who didn't want to play), and Stam (Druggie), with RVN, and Rio is progress IMO. But the job isn't finished. You talk as if the current team is the finished article!!
And as for playing shit in a number of positions, that doesn't surprise me, because you appearto know feck all about football :p
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Devilish, if you were actually a mancunian, as you claim (yeah right), there is no way you would be dissing having local lads in the team.

I am a mancunian AND I have met P Nev here in Malta for a couple of times and he is a wonderful lad But that is not enough to play at OT.

Winning medals while sitting on the bench of a highly successful club is NOT an excuse for success. May have won the CL medal but was he vital for the 1999 treble setup? Do you really believe tha P Nev is better than Owen (yuk), Southgate or Campbell?

Scalisto is right on ONE thing we have the mentality of a provincial team were a player can be crap or play shit, but just because he is a nice lad he is not sold.

Well we are not a 4 division team, we are MANUTD. These players are paid 30 - 40 grands a week and they got to be good players if they want to stay in the team

Once they make it in the team they are not our little local lads any more. They are world class players who are paid and should be treated as world class players. I prefar a Dutch who can do the job rather than a local who cant. After all I am not this or that player supporter, I am a Man United supporter
 
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