Euthanasia

HTG said:
Maybe, just maybe, don’t post the worst source anyone can find on topics as sensible as this one.
And I’ll give you my views on a topic if you don’t start a discussion by posting factually wrong nonsense like you did. Mental health is part of health. Hence why it’s called that way. And if your source claims a person with chronic depression and other illnesses is perfectly healthy, it’s a horribly bad source and a disingenuous way to start a conversation.
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I don't find these things, they appear on the cesspit that is twitter.

"Factually wrong nonsense" is why this debate point has arisen. Without it, you wouldn't have raised what your good point ffs. If the twitter account, just said, "woman is killing herself", you'd of not raised this point.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
It brutal and I'm open to the idea he could make a decision to end his life but the idea of an industry built around it feels awful.

Why are people feeling this way in increasing numbers, what is driving this unhappiness, find the route cause.
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I don't think allowing it in some cases of extreme physical issues will lead to an industry around it. There would still need to be a lengthy process with several doctors involved for each case.

But to be clear, I think we are in agreement when it comes to euthanasia for mental health reasons. I usually hate the "slippery slope" argument, but in this case it really does seem like one.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I don't think allowing it in some cases of extreme physical issues will lead to an industry around it. There would still need to be a lengthy process with several doctors involved for each case.

But to be clear, I think we are in agreement when it comes to euthanasia for mental health reasons. I usually hate the "slippery slope" argument, but in this case it really does seem like one.
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And I think I disagree with HTG on this too, the twitter post I shared, said the person was perfectly healthy. Now whiile I totally agree that mental health is incredibly important, the person in the video is physically fine and it's jarring to see someone not entering palliative care/terminal illness taking this route.
 
It's obviously ignorant and insensitive to say she's perfectly healthy, I'm sure most would agree. I totally get why people including him wouldn't understand it, but to disregard the pain she's feeling in that way isn't the best way to approach the discussion.

Unless you've ever been right on the edge due to your mental health yourself it's going to be virtually impossible to understand that decision. Heart-breaking situation for her and her loved ones to be in.
 
Mike Smalling said:
What's your view on people with extremely low quality of life due to physical ailments with no prospect of improvement? Without euthanasia the only real route for these people, if they truly wish to die, is suicide - if they are even physically able.

A while back I watched a documentary about such a case. Man in his 40's, paralyzed from the neck down in a work accident, in lots of pain and needing constant care, but he had all his mental faculties. He just didn't want the indignity of needing help with everything, he was tired of the pain, and he was depressed from not being able to lead an active life, which he had been used to. The angle of the documentary was that he had to travel to another country for euthanasia. I feel like people in his situation deserve a dignified way out.
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Oh it's a really difficult situation. Letting the state have the power in defining what counts as extremely low quality of life especially when it comes to euthanasia could lead to some terrible outcomes. Ideally in general we should limit the ways the government can kill us. With regards to man in the documentary who's life sounds full of terrible pain I can see why he would want that option of euthanasia. But I've known people who also need help with everything or are paralysed or some who don't even have all of their mental faculties yet they have fulfilling lives. It's impossible to define when someone life becomes unliveable and I don't have any faith in a government to be able to come up with an answer. The guardian story seem insane and a step way too far.
 
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m001z8wc/better-off-dead

A documentary on assisted suicide, authored by actor and disability rights activist Liz Carr.

We may be used to seeing Liz in dramas such as Silent Witness, Good Omens or The Witcher, but now she’s stepping away from the spotlight to pursue her greatest passion – debating why she believes we shouldn’t legalise assisted suicide. As a long-term campaigner against that change, Liz fears disabled lives will be put at risk if the law is altered.

Travelling to Canada, Liz explores the repercussions of some of the most permissive assisted suicide laws in the world. Here Liz is confronted with a law that can end the lives of not just the terminally ill but people who are disabled and those who are offered a medically assisted death as a ‘way out’ of social deprivation.

Back in the UK, Liz meets influential voices calling for a change in the law, such as Labour peer Lord Falconer and Sunday Times columnist Melanie Reid. She also meets fellow campaigners fighting to retain the status quo, including disabled peer Baroness Jane Campbell, who had a ‘Do Not Resuscitate’ order placed on her for a routine illness without consent.

In a society where disabled people are often told they are ‘better off dead’ than disabled, Liz asks: ‘Should we really be giving more power to end that group of people’s lives?
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People should watch this. It definitely changed how I view things.
 
Our neighbours in the street, their daughter was euthanized at 27, 2 years ago

Tricky subject. Amazingly talented daughter but she went through the process and it was granted. Her mother is unapproachable almost.
 
Sweet Square said:
Oh it's a really difficult situation. Letting the state have the power in defining what counts as extremely low quality of life especially when it comes to euthanasia could lead to some terrible outcomes. Ideally in general we should limit the ways the government can kill us. With regards to man in the documentary who's life sounds full of terrible pain I can see why he would want that option of euthanasia. But I've known people who also need help with everything or are paralysed or some who don't even have all of their mental faculties yet they have fulfilling lives. It's impossible to define when someone life becomes unliveable and I don't have any faith in a government to be able to come up with an answer. The guardian story seem insane and a step way too far.
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Well, in this case he was able to clearly articulate it himself in an extremely compelling manor. But I get that it ultimately has to be signed off by someone with authority. And I agree on the general principle about governments taking lives. It's why the death penalty is such a terrible idea. Wherever there are people involved there is the potential for exploitation and errors. That's really the best argument against it for me.
 
I am in favour of Assisted Dying.
No one has the right to dictate to other people that they to carry on living with a terminal illness or in excruciating pain.
Yes there will need to be certain protocols and checks and balances put in place.
But it should be a human right to decide how how to end your own life.
 
calodo2003 said:
After a discussion with her sisters, I euthanized my mom through multiple morphine ‘injections;’ she was virtually comatose after her throat cancer had spread to her brain & body & was on a morphine drip. She was not able to eat without intense pain for two years prior to her death, she was only able to receive sustenance through receiving Ensure through a peg tube in her stomach every night. It was no way for someone to live.

We decided as a family to do the merciful thing. My aunts are very religious, but they were the ones who approached me about euthanizing my mom. They were able to say their proper goodbyes, as did I, & my mom went to be with her mother after about two hours of morphine use.

It was the least I could have done for the most amazing woman I had ever met in my life.
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I'm truly sorry that you and your family had to go through this kind of ordeal. For what it's worth and even if it's heartbreaking for all concerned, I personally think you made the right decision.

May your mother rest in peace.
 
Adisa said:
Forget sources, I saw the video of the 29 year old a few days ago. I am not sure it sits well with me. Feel very uncomfortable.
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Although it doesn't have to. I can't imagine wanting to die because of a mental illness but that is because I've never had a serious mental illness I suspect. I guess one issue is that if you are mentally ill can being mentally ill enough to want to die can you be considered rational enough to make that decision? I have no answer.

But in general you should be legally allowed to take charge of your exit from this world on your own terms. I'm prepared to do so if necessary legal or otherwise. No way will I allow myself descend into a dribbling mindless pseudo-existence like my parents had to endure when they got Alzheimer's. Hopefully that won't be necessary of course.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
It brutal and I'm open to the idea he could make a decision to end his life but the idea of an industry built around it feels awful.

Why are people feeling this way in increasing numbers, what is driving this unhappiness, find the route cause.
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There's neither a root cause nor a silver bullet.

Your perceived increasing numbers are just happening because the social yoke is gradually loosening up and people feel they can talk about it without being ostracized or perceived as unnatural or abnormal. It happened with many, many other topics deviating from the social "norms" which were frowned upon and never talked about, from divorce. to depression, to being gay/lesbian, etc. The will to die is one of the last bastions that's about to fall, that's all.

Every human being has the right and freedom to choose not only how to live but also how to die, as long as they don't endanger the lives of others in doing so. There are people who feel that they've reached the end of the line, due to mental and/or physical trauma which causes them to suffer beyond their ability to cope with, no matter how much support they can get from the outside. When everything else has failed, they should be allowed to meet their end with dignity, in the less painful way.

It might feel awful for you and I personally get that, but ultimately we all enter our own tombs alone and one just can't keep a walking dead alive for their own selfish reasons, no matter how hard it is.

Just let them go.
 
That_Bloke said:
I'm truly sorry that you and your family had to go through this kind of ordeal. For what it's worth and even if it's heartbreaking for all concerned, I personally think you made the right decision.

May your mother rest in peace.
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Much appreciated.
 
Buster15 said:
I am in favour of Assisted Dying.
No one has the right to dictate to other people that they to carry on living with a terminal illness or in excruciating pain.
Yes there will need to be certain protocols and checks and balances put in place.
But it should be a human right to decide how how to end your own life.
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Isn't the issue that people are free to kill themselves or attempt it, we don't criminalise this, it's that we are not free for the act to be state sponsored?
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
Isn't the issue that people are free to kill themselves or attempt it, we don't criminalise this, it's that we are not free for the act to be state sponsored?
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The problem with suicide being legal as an argument against euthanasia is that often times the people that are in need of it are not physically able to kill themselves, and if they are able to do it themselves, it is highly likely to negatively impact someone else (for example, someone will have to find the body and deal with the aftermath). Also, suicides often fail. Having a doctor do it in safe and painfree manner is much preferable to whatever method of suicide a desperate person can come up with and find the means for.
 
That_Bloke said:
There's neither a root cause nor a silver bullet.

Your perceived increasing numbers are just happening because the social yoke is gradually loosening up and people feel they can talk about it without being ostracized or perceived as unnatural or abnormal. It happened with many, many other topics deviating from the social "norms" which were frowned upon and never talked about, from divorce. to depression, to being gay/lesbian, etc. The will to die is one of the last bastions that's about to fall, that's all.

Every human being has the right and freedom to choose not only how to live but also how to die, as long as they don't endanger the lives of others in doing so. There are people who feel that they've reached the end of the line, due to mental and/or physical trauma which causes them to suffer beyond their ability to cope with, no matter how much support they can get from the outside. When everything else has failed, they should be allowed to meet their end with dignity, in the less painful way.

It might feel awful for you and I personally get that, but ultimately we all enter our own tombs alone and one just can't keep a walking dead alive for their own selfish reasons, no matter how hard it is.

Just let them go.
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This is always the apparent answer but I disagree, the stats I saw were over a recent 13 year period, from 2010 - 2023, not 30 years where societal attitudes may shift by a far amount using other subjects as an bellweather (gay rights for example).

This is a huge increase in people actually going through with it for MH reasons as oppossed to physical health, a 6800% increase in 13 years. This cannot be explained away as "social yoke is loossening up", it's clear there is a fundamental issue with MH - we see it every day - adverts for app based therapists, polling showing more and more people are unhappy, more clinical diagnosis of depression, more childhood depression. To try and say there is no root cause is naive.

Also I disagree with the concept of being allowed to meet their "self defined end in a less painful way", it strikes me as commodification of death, a market based solution to an issue that will not solve the issue of why people wish to leave this planet but drive more people to this end. At the end of this road you'll see a app based video therapist, powered by some LLM who will suggest you speak to an "end of life specialist" where KPI's will be measured on succesful referrals to Euthanisia clinics. Sorry, this isn't conducive with a healthy society.

I also don't see any dignity in having an underpaid nurse pump your sleeping body full of the same compounds used to arrest the diaphram of death row inmates. I also don't see how you can protect the MH of the nurses killing people every day.

We'll have to to agree to disagree.
 
I knew of a doctor who was hugely religious and anti euthanasia. We used to have some very heated debates on it. The moment he was diagnosed with a hugely painful and life ending condition he committed suicide.
 
Mike Smalling said:
The problem with suicide being legal as an argument against euthanasia is that often times the people that are in need of it are not physically able to kill themselves, and if they are able to do it themselves, it is highly likely to negatively impact someone else (for example, someone will have to find the body and deal with the aftermath). Also, suicides often fail. Having a doctor do it in safe and painfree manner is much preferable to whatever method of suicide a desperate person can come up with and find the means for.
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I am not arguing against Physical, I am arguing against MH so can we stick with that.

You also seem to completely ignore the staff at these clinics who will see these people, younger and younger, coming in and dying at their hands, as if that would be any less traumatic than a dog walker finding a body in the woods. Seeimingly the consideration for the affect on people cannot extend to what will be underpaid nurses.
 
devilish said:
I knew of a doctor who was hugely religious and anti euthanasia. We used to have some very heated debates on it. The moment he was diagnosed with a hugely painful and life ending condition he committed suicide.
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How sad.

But I am not sure on the point, he had no limitations on his ability to kill himself, he chose to do it, and he didn't need a clinic to do it. I imagine given his close proximity to healthcare, he understood the inherent risks.
 
calodo2003 said:
After a discussion with her sisters, I euthanized my mom through multiple morphine ‘injections;’ she was virtually comatose after her throat cancer had spread to her brain & body & was on a morphine drip. She was not able to eat without intense pain for two years prior to her death, she was only able to receive sustenance through receiving Ensure through a peg tube in her stomach every night. It was no way for someone to live.

We decided as a family to do the merciful thing. My aunts are very religious, but they were the ones who approached me about euthanizing my mom. They were able to say their proper goodbyes, as did I, & my mom went to be with her mother after about two hours of morphine use.

It was the least I could have done for the most amazing woman I had ever met in my life.
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May she rest in peace x
 
Wibble said:
Although it doesn't have to. I can't imagine wanting to die because of a mental illness but that is because I've never had a serious mental illness I suspect. I guess one issue is that if you are mentally ill can being mentally ill enough to want to die can you be considered rational enough to make that decision? I have no answer.

But in general you should be legally allowed to take charge of your exit from this world on your own terms. I'm prepared to do so if necessary legal or otherwise. No way will I allow myself descend into a dribbling mindless pseudo-existence like my parents had to endure when they got Alzheimer's. Hopefully that won't be necessary of course.
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I got autism, the Sheldon Cooper type (minus the brilliance). That means that I walk on eggshells most of the time because I'd probably end up offending someone without even noticing. Even then I tend to occasionally get into trouble especially during meltdowns. I have a lot to live for (family mostly). However take that out of the equation and quite frankly its not a very nice life at all.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
How sad.

But I am not sure on the point, he had no limitations on his ability to kill himself, he chose to do it, and he didn't need a clinic to do it. I imagine given his close proximity to healthcare, he understood the inherent risks.
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Well he was pretty ethical towards his profession thus he didn't abuse of his power. His death was not very nice. Let's say Malta has a lot of bastions to choose from. Which is sad really.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
I am not arguing against Physical, I am arguing against MH so can we stick with that.

You also seem to completely ignore the staff at these clinics who will see these people, younger and younger, coming in and dying at their hands, as if that would be any less traumatic than a dog walker finding a body in the woods. Seeimingly the consideration for the affect on people cannot extend to what will be underpaid nurses.
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Ok, but then we don't even disagree. I'm not for euthanasia in cases of mental health at all.
 
Mike Smalling said:
Ok, but then we don't even disagree. I'm not for euthanasia in cases of mental health at all.
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Yeah, physical/terminal illness is so hard ot judge, I am against it in principal becaus eof a distrust of the institutions but in practise someone is free to choose, I wouldn't judge.

The MH thing I am against, with this young girl, it's just devastating. As bad as her MH is, a small part of me thinks it's almost an afront to those who have the terrifying misfortune to be diagnosed with life ending illnesses would would do anything to stay alive.

I know MH is important, I really do, but yeah, just being honest.
 
devilish said:
I got autism, the Sheldon Cooper type (minus the brilliance). That means that I walk on eggshells most of the time because I'd probably end up offending someone without even noticing. Even then I tend to occasionally get into trouble especially during meltdowns. I have a lot to live for (family mostly). However take that out of the equation and quite frankly its not a very nice life at all.
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And I imagine many people don't treat you in the same way they would if you had a more physical condition. Sad to hear but great to hear the family bit.
 
devilish said:
I got autism, the Sheldon Cooper type (minus the brilliance). That means that I walk on eggshells most of the time because I'd probably end up offending someone without even noticing. Even then I tend to occasionally get into trouble especially during meltdowns. I have a lot to live for (family mostly). However take that out of the equation and quite frankly its not a very nice life at all.
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You have a lot to live for and as someone with a severly autistic goddaughter, I never take offence :D
 
Mike Smalling said:
Ok, but then we don't even disagree. I'm not for euthanasia in cases of mental health at all.
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Why? If someone can show they are rational enough to make the decision why do they even have to be ill? It is their life after all.
 
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Wibble said:
And I imagine many people don't treat you in the same way they would if you had a more physical condition. Sad to hear but great to hear the family bit.
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Look, I don't blame them. I can be very frustrating at times. I will repeat the same point again which is my way of explaining myself better but it makes it sound like I am treating the person like an idiot. I tend to be very logical up to the point that I am almost cruel and when meltdown hit, god save us all. However its a very lonely life. I have a low end job because that's the only job I can do without frustrating everyone. My circle of friends is very small and quite frankly they are not very nice. If it wasn't for family then things could get nasty.
 
Wibble said:
Why? If someone can show they are rational enough to make the decision why do they even have to be ill? It is there life after all.
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I think it's a potential slippery slope. Maybe there are cases like you describe, where people can perfectly rationally argue that they don't want to live based on their mental health. But where do you draw the line between that and someone who is severely depressed, which can be temporary? And who makes the distinction? How do you know someone with a mental health problem is being rational?

I also think euthanasia in cases of physical ailments generally rely on the assumption that the condition cannot get better, which would need to be the opinion by multiple doctors. I'm not a mental health expert of course, but it seems to me that it would be lot less clear cut in cases of mental health, that the situation simply cannot improve.
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
Yeah, physical/terminal illness is so hard ot judge, I am against it in principal becaus eof a distrust of the institutions but in practise someone is free to choose, I wouldn't judge.

The MH thing I am against, with this young girl, it's just devastating. As bad as her MH is, a small part of me thinks it's almost an afront to those who have the terrifying misfortune to be diagnosed with life ending illnesses would would do anything to stay alive.

I know MH is important, I really do, but yeah, just being honest.
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I like that you seem to be very open-minded about it. Pain of a terminal disease is not felt in the body part it is occuring, i. e. liver cancer in the liver. It is experienced in the cortex through neuronal activity. Mental illness can be experienced in the same way with the same debilitating effects on all aspects of life. So the part with the affront seems to indicate you have not quite accepted mental health as an equal in the amount of pain it can cause, even though it can. For me, as someone who currently studies psychology after work, the main issue with mental health (and euthanasia) seems to be that we don't have the same amount of knowledge and research data today, to predict the develompent of mental diseases with the same amount of certainty as many physical diseases where there is decades or even centuries of research. Young people, especially under the age of 25 where the brain is still developing rapidly, are also especially prone to suicidal thoughts that might disappear completely a few years later.
 
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devilish said:
Look, I don't blame them. I can be very frustrating at times. I will repeat the same point again which is my way of explaining myself better but it makes it sound like I am treating the person like an idiot. I tend to be very logical up to the point that I am almost cruel and when meltdown hit, god save us all. However its a very lonely life. I have a low end job because that's the only job I can do without frustrating everyone. My circle of friends is very small and quite frankly they are not very nice. If it wasn't for family then things could get nasty.
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You have us mate, might be names on a forum but we're real people who like you. DM's as ever are open.
 
jadajos said:
I like that you seem to be very open-minded about it. Pain of a terminal disease is not felt in the body part it is occuring, i. e. liver cancer in the liver. It is experienced in the cortex through neuronal activity. Mental illness can be experienced in the same way with the same debilitating effects on all aspects of life. So the part with the affront seems to indicate you have not quite accepted mental health as an equal in the amount of pain it can cause, even though it can. For me, as someone who currently studies psychology after work, the main issue with mental health (and euthanasia) seems to be that we don't have the same amount of knowledge and research data today, to predict the develompent of mental diseases with the same amount of certainty as many physical diseases where there is decades or even centuries of research.
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I understand your point that pain comes from the brain and the brain highlights where pain is emminating from, and I concede MH can cause physical ailments (I suffer from these) but I don't think it will ever be on par with terminal illness, I also think defining both as the same is exceptionally dangerous.
 
Mike Smalling said:
I think it's a potential slippery slope. Maybe there are cases like you describe, where people can perfectly rationally argue that they don't want to live based on their mental health. But where do you draw the line between that and someone who is severely depressed, which can be temporary? And who makes the distinction? How do you know someone with a mental health problem is being rational?

I also think euthanasia in cases of physical ailments generally rely on the assumption that the condition cannot get better, which would need to be the opinion by multiple doctors. I'm not a mental health expert of course, but it seems to me that it would be lot less clear cut in cases of mental health, that the situation simply cannot improve.
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Every case of euthanasia requires a professional judgement to make sure that person can make a rational and informed decision (or made a living will for when they couldn't). Cases like the one in question have take a long long time to get to the end game and you can't just top yourself because you had a bad day at work or even a few weeks of depression. And why should potentially getting better or even being ill be a criteria? If people want to die what has it got to do with anyone else as long as basic steps are taken two ensure people don't do it on a whim?
 
Murder on Zidanes Floor said:
I understand your point that pain comes from the brain and the brain highlights where pain is emminating from, and I concede MH can cause physical ailments (I suffer from these) but I don't think it will ever be on par with terminal illness, I also think defining both as the same is exceptionally dangerous.
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Why do you think it will never be on par? You can actually measure the neuronal activity of pain experience in an fMRI so it's pretty objective.
 
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