European military power with no American support - AKA the tank counting thread

What’s controversial about saying tanks aren’t the future of war? They aren’t, are they?
Armed carrier groups....

They don't do it like the Gulf War (1) any more but they still use them for the cover and also the artillery. This is one of the lessons of the Ukraine-Russian war (for military heads). Tanks aren't what they used to be but you've seen them station tanks miles away and just use them as artillery batteries.

But assume airpower (drones and whatever) has for a time negated conventional ground armor, I'd imagine it's not long before the drone thing is equalized by something else (air defense evolution).

Not my specialty at all. Just what I've heard and seen.
 
What’s controversial about saying tanks aren’t the future of war? They aren’t, are they?

To me this question is like the claim that Europe can't defend itself. What is the context, where are they supposed to be deployed and for what purpose? My understanding is that MBTs have their place in the future and today there is no better alternatives but that's only in the context of offensive wars or terrain conquests/reconquests. In terms of defense, they are not as useful in numbers, it's crucial to have them but you don't need the same numbers.
 
What kind of badger are we talking Honey, European, American or other?

I’ve been in badgers for over a decade.
It’s good to see someone with genuine experience in Badgers!
Armed carrier groups....

They don't do it like the Gulf War (1) any more but they still use them for the cover and also the artillery. This is one of the lessons of the Ukraine-Russian war (for military heads). Tanks aren't what they used to be but you've seen them station tanks miles away and just use them as artillery batteries.

But assume airpower (drones and whatever) has for a time negated conventional ground armor, I'd imagine it's not long before the drone thing is equalized by something else (air defense evolution).

Not my specialty at all. Just what I've heard and seen.
To me this question is like the claim that Europe can't defend itself. What is the context, where are they supposed to be deployed and for what purpose? My understanding is that MBTs have their place in the future and today there is no better alternatives but that's only in the context of offensive wars or terrain conquests/reconquests. In terms of defense, they are not as useful in numbers, it's crucial to have them but you don't need the same numbers.
Ah I see! Thank you.
 
No you are right, but it's incredibly frustrating reading stuff like this.

Military procurement and doctrine is a very technical field, that requires years and years of study to even begin to understand the basics. It's also ever evolving and it's also a topic that you can't really study or research in your spare time by reading articles online.

I've been in the field for over a decade and honestly there's a shit tonne of stuff that I still get wrong, that I make assumptions on and then find out it's actually not correct. Things like tank doctrine at the strategic and tactical level requires decades of experience first hand in command positions to fully understand and appreciate.

Imagine I go into a thread about vaccines and start spouting stuff about how it causes autism and how it's actually harmful etc despite having no background in medicine or biomedical sciences. I would definitely get shouted or laughed out the thread.

The confidence and arrogance displayed in the post above is really grating for that reason and it's basically like an anti vacc stance but on a wholly different topic.


Anyway I'll apologise for being condescending but the confidence in such a complex technical matter despite being so wrong is pretty irritating.

Would absolutely love to hear your opinions on the future of tanks in warfare. The media has given me the impression that Tanks were ineffective in the Russia-Ukraine and Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict because of their vulnerability to drones. What's your take on that?

I take a bit of amateur level interest in conflicts and weapons of war, and I'm of the opinion that Tanks have the same effectiveness as always, they just face an additional airborne threat. In the past it was attack helicopters and jets, today drones are included in the mix too.
 
The bigger question to me is the social cost. I'm not in favor of paying it unless the government(s) are willing to impose a wealth tax to fund social improvements and/or increased defense expenditure.

feck paying for conventional armies (for most of Europe, it would be different if you're Poland where nearly 5% of GDP is going on defense???) if you have a crisis in homelessness, social mobility (housing), and healthcare. Basically an apartheid system under what used to be social welfare safety net. The US cannot cover the EU nor the Mid-East as it used to (official and unofficially) because it is looking toward China. But the EU cannot afford the kind of spending which the Americans are accustomed to. 2% of an economy ought to be more than sufficient. Different for each nation, but why would the UK spend more than that (unless it's a once off expenditure over years) when it is an island with nuclear submarines? The only nations to invade the UK in the past two thousand years have been Rome (Caesar) and France (1066; of course, Hitler tried, as did the Spanish Armada). But that's like four notable events in two-thousand years and with nuclear submarines how the feck can you justify more than 2% as necessary in defense?
It’s good to see someone with genuine experience in Badgers!


Ah I see! Thank you.
Can't recall the actual term but it isn't armed carrier group (that is like aircraft carriers and destroyers iirc), other than that, I think it's close-ish. I'll let someone else address it. I'm out of my depth in very specific military technicalities.
 
What’s controversial about saying tanks aren’t the future of war? They aren’t, are they?

There's been talk decades ago about the obsoletion of tanks and various think-tanks, defense departments and consultancies have studied scenarios in which a tank may or may not be relevant.


Basically, to simplify this as much as possible:

-Taking positions, penetrating a frontline and covering areas always require people. We're not at the level of technology (yet, or anytime soon) where autonomous robots/vehicles can effectively control/cover a frontline position. Vehicles lack tactical flexibility that people offer, and all vehicles are designated for force multiplication.

-Unless you're a psychopathic military, the most important thing when it comes to people is survivability. So a few things are needed to be considered here. Making sure soldiers survive reaching the frontline. Making sure that once the soldiers are at the frontline, they have the necessary protection in a hostile environment to survive and thirdly is you have the necessary firepower in order to complete your mission objective and overwhelm the enemies protection and defences.

-The first element, of getting soldiers to the frontline safely is mostly done through APC's and things like MRAPs etc. APC's allow flexible tactical mobility with adequate protection against indirect long range fire such as artillery. It doesn't protect you very well against direct fire, but if you're shipping soldiers to the frontlines direct fire will be rare, apart from the case of air strikes. That is where tactical (and strategic) level air defense comes in, which also offers protection during this phase of battle.

-The second element of survivability is protection in battle. This is where things like IFV's, AFV's come into play. APC's ferry units to the frontline. IFV's and AFV's exist so that on the frontline, soldiers have adequate protection and some element of firepower in battle itself. It's not just limited to vehicles, but even things like adequate basic equipment (body armour) contributes to the survivability. Again, air defence (whether in the form of anti-air or defense in the form of air superiority is also important) is crucial, because air power is a massive force multiplier.

-Thirdly, a unit must have the adequate firepower to fulfil their mission objective, whether defensive or offensively. This can come in the form of many things, like artillery support, air support, indirect fires, ATGM's, etc. One thing which became obvious during WWII and well beyond is that direct firepower (the difference between direct fire and indirect fire is quite defined, but for laymans terms you can reduce it to the gunner can see the target with their own eyes for direct fire, and they cannot for indirect fire) was needed to support the people on the frontlines. Some mission profiles do not suit air support or artillery support. For example, concealed bunkers or enemy hardpoints that are hidden behind a mountain. Things like autonomous drones/FPV's are not going to be able to do this.

-So this direct fire support has a few requirements. It needs to be able to be flexible and do missions ad-hoc at a units request very quickly, something which air support doesn't cover. It needs to be able to keep up in the frontlines and move at the same pace as the other vehicles - there's no point having direct fire support if its chugging along at 10kmph whilst the other vehicles are 50km in front. It needs to have adequate protection in place so that they are not easily disabled/destroyed thus rendering a units direct fire support ended at the start of the battle. It needs to have the flexbility to engage in a wide range of different mission profiles - whether attacking a strongpoint or an open field against a different wide variety of opponents.

-So out of this requirement was born two different things. A "Tank" and an "Assault gun". An assault gun fulfils some requirements - the necessary protection, direct firepower and mobility but it's not suitable for other things like engaging mass enemy infantry. The Tank (or modern MBT rather), is less mobile due to its heavier weight and extra armaments, but has the tactical flexbility to engage in far more mission profiles. Using the US as an example, you have the M1 Abrams, a heavy MBT for its general purpose work. But over the last decade they found that in some terrains, the MBT isn't mobile enough to keep up with the rest of the forces, hence a new requirement was created. The project "Mobile Protected Firepower" (MPF) was created to meet the requirement of having mobile direct fire support for ground units but also lighter so that it can operate in more austere terrain. Out of this project, spawned the M10 Booker. This has just entered service.

MPF-1046x700-1-1024x685.png

- You might think this is a tank, it looks like one right? Well, not really. It doesn't meet the classification of an American "Tank" so they decided to call it a "Light Tank", but its more akin to an Assault Gun. It, like the M1 is necessary because you always need direct fire support that Drones, Air support, missiles cannot provide. Close fire support with missiles and aircraft is very risky, as seen in Desert Storm with the high number of friendly fire incidents. The most intense and dense air/missile support is, the more friendly fire there will be.

-So ultimately, to sum up, as long as there are people on the frontlines, there is going to be a requirement for direct fire support. A direct fire support requires survivability as a platform in itself, it needs to be mobile, fast, flexible, and be able to be attached at a lower organizational unit level for tactical flexibility. That requirement, despite decades of people trying to find design alternatives, always ends up being in the form of a Tank, or something that looks akin to a Tank.
 
The bigger question to me is the social cost. I'm not in favor of paying it unless the government(s) are willing to impose a wealth tax to fund social improvements and/or increased defense expenditure.

feck paying for conventional armies (for most of Europe, it would be different if you're Poland where nearly 5% of GDP is going on defense???) if you have a crisis in homelessness, social mobility (housing), and healthcare. Basically an apartheid system under what used to be social welfare safety net. The US cannot cover the EU nor the Mid-East as it used to (official and unofficially) because it is looking toward China. But the EU cannot afford the kind of spending which the Americans are accustomed to. 2% of an economy ought to be more than sufficient. Different for each nation, but why would the UK spend more than that (unless it's a once off expenditure over years) when it is an island with nuclear submarines? The only nations to invade the UK in the past two thousand years have been Rome (Caesar) and France (1066; of course, Hitler tried, as did the Spanish Armada). But that's like four notable events in two-thousand years and with nuclear submarines how the feck can you justify more than 2% as necessary in defense?

Can't recall the actual term but it isn't armed carrier group (that is like aircraft carriers and destroyers iirc), other than that, I think it's close-ish. I'll let someone else address it. I'm out of my depth in very specific military technicalities.
The homeless could be trained to drive tanks and become socially mobile. Mass deaths would cut healthcare costs too.
 
There's been talk decades ago about the obsoletion of tanks and various think-tanks, defense departments and consultancies have studied scenarios in which a tank may or may not be relevant.


Basically, to simplify this as much as possible:

-Taking positions, penetrating a frontline and covering areas always require people. We're not at the level of technology (yet, or anytime soon) where autonomous robots/vehicles can effectively control/cover a frontline position. Vehicles lack tactical flexibility that people offer, and all vehicles are designated for force multiplication.

-Unless you're a psychopathic military, the most important thing when it comes to people is survivability. So a few things are needed to be considered here. Making sure soldiers survive reaching the frontline. Making sure that once the soldiers are at the frontline, they have the necessary protection in a hostile environment to survive and thirdly is you have the necessary firepower in order to complete your mission objective and overwhelm the enemies protection and defences.

-The first element, of getting soldiers to the frontline safely is mostly done through APC's and things like MRAPs etc. APC's allow flexible tactical mobility with adequate protection against indirect long range fire such as artillery. It doesn't protect you very well against direct fire, but if you're shipping soldiers to the frontlines direct fire will be rare, apart from the case of air strikes. That is where tactical (and strategic) level air defense comes in, which also offers protection during this phase of battle.

-The second element of survivability is protection in battle. This is where things like IFV's, AFV's come into play. APC's ferry units to the frontline. IFV's and AFV's exist so that on the frontline, soldiers have adequate protection and some element of firepower in battle itself. It's not just limited to vehicles, but even things like adequate basic equipment (body armour) contributes to the survivability. Again, air defence (whether in the form of anti-air or defense in the form of air superiority is also important) is crucial, because air power is a massive force multiplier.

-Thirdly, a unit must have the adequate firepower to fulfil their mission objective, whether defensive or offensively. This can come in the form of many things, like artillery support, air support, indirect fires, ATGM's, etc. One thing which became obvious during WWII and well beyond is that direct firepower (the difference between direct fire and indirect fire is quite defined, but for laymans terms you can reduce it to the gunner can see the target with their own eyes for direct fire, and they cannot for indirect fire) was needed to support the people on the frontlines. Some mission profiles do not suit air support or artillery support. For example, concealed bunkers or enemy hardpoints that are hidden behind a mountain. Things like autonomous drones/FPV's are not going to be able to do this.

-So this direct fire support has a few requirements. It needs to be able to be flexible and do missions ad-hoc at a units request very quickly, something which air support doesn't cover. It needs to be able to keep up in the frontlines and move at the same pace as the other vehicles - there's no point having direct fire support if its chugging along at 10kmph whilst the other vehicles are 50km in front. It needs to have adequate protection in place so that they are not easily disabled/destroyed thus rendering a units direct fire support ended at the start of the battle. It needs to have the flexbility to engage in a wide range of different mission profiles - whether attacking a strongpoint or an open field against a different wide variety of opponents.

-So out of this requirement was born two different things. A "Tank" and an "Assault gun". An assault gun fulfils some requirements - the necessary protection, direct firepower and mobility but it's not suitable for other things like engaging mass enemy infantry. The Tank (or modern MBT rather), is less mobile due to its heavier weight and extra armaments, but has the tactical flexbility to engage in far more mission profiles. Using the US as an example, you have the M1 Abrams, a heavy MBT for its general purpose work. But over the last decade they found that in some terrains, the MBT isn't mobile enough to keep up with the rest of the forces, hence a new requirement was created. The project "Mobile Protected Firepower" (MPF) was created to meet the requirement of having mobile direct fire support for ground units but also lighter so that it can operate in more austere terrain. Out of this project, spawned the M10 Booker. This has just entered service.



- You might think this is a tank, it looks like one right? Well, not really. It doesn't meet the classification of an American "Tank" so they decided to call it a "Light Tank", but its more akin to an Assault Gun. It, like the M1 is necessary because you always need direct fire support that Drones, Air support, missiles cannot provide. Close fire support with missiles and aircraft is very risky, as seen in Desert Storm with the high number of friendly fire incidents. The most intense and dense air/missile support is, the more friendly fire there will be.

-So ultimately, to sum up, as long as there are people on the frontlines, there is going to be a requirement for direct fire support. A direct fire support requires survivability as a platform in itself, it needs to be mobile, fast, flexible, and be able to be attached at a lower organizational unit level for tactical flexibility. That requirement, despite decades of people trying to find design alternatives, always ends up being in the form of a Tank, or something that looks akin to a Tank.
Fair enough mate! Thanks for the detailed reply.
 
We covered pretty in depth military history at Sandhurst which covered WWII in quite some depth.

Although my opinions in Leningrad are't that determined? My opinion is that the original plan was never to have a long term siege and the only reason it reached that point was because Army Group North got asset stripped for other operations in Center and South. Which is backed up by OKH minutes and documents.
I read OKH in my head as occupational health and had a funny mental image of nazi HR departments having a meeting about how to get the eastern front divisions return to work monitoring on the go.
 
The bigger question to me is the social cost. I'm not in favor of paying it unless the government(s) are willing to impose a wealth tax to fund social improvements and/or increased defense expenditure.

feck paying for conventional armies (for most of Europe, it would be different if you're Poland where nearly 5% of GDP is going on defense???) if you have a crisis in homelessness, social mobility (housing), and healthcare. Basically an apartheid system under what used to be social welfare safety net. The US cannot cover the EU nor the Mid-East as it used to (official and unofficially) because it is looking toward China. But the EU cannot afford the kind of spending which the Americans are accustomed to. 2% of an economy ought to be more than sufficient. Different for each nation, but why would the UK spend more than that (unless it's a once off expenditure over years) when it is an island with nuclear submarines? The only nations to invade the UK in the past two thousand years have been Rome (Caesar) and France (1066; of course, Hitler tried, as did the Spanish Armada). But that's like four notable events in two-thousand years and with nuclear submarines how the feck can you justify more than 2% as necessary in defense?

Can't recall the actual term but it isn't armed carrier group (that is like aircraft carriers and destroyers iirc), other than that, I think it's close-ish. I'll let someone else address it. I'm out of my depth in very specific military technicalities.
I agree that any increase in defence spending should come alongside some form of wealth tax. Heaviest burdens and all that jazz. Though I have been in favour of higher taxation of ultra-wealthy in particular for a long time. Frankly, we're on our arse and need it.

Why we should bother comes down to how much of a responsibility we have to step up and support our European allies. For me, this should always have been a priority, and has only increased in importance now the US are effectively out of the fight.

I'm no expert, but it seems prudent to build up sufficient fighting strength outside of the US to deter Russia, as their plans are clear. This would include becoming more independent from the US in terms of equipment and logistics wherever possible, building our own tanks, guns, bullets etc.

At the moment we're a disorganised mess and a soft target. To solve this will require vision, cooperation and of course, lots of fecking money. Whether people think it's a worthwhile expense is up to them, and for me it very much is.
 
Would absolutely love to hear your opinions on the future of tanks in warfare. The media has given me the impression that Tanks were ineffective in the Russia-Ukraine and Azerbaijan-Armenia conflict because of their vulnerability to drones. What's your take on that?

I take a bit of amateur level interest in conflicts and weapons of war, and I'm of the opinion that Tanks have the same effectiveness as always, they just face an additional airborne threat. In the past it was attack helicopters and jets, today drones are included in the mix too.
It's pretty much this. It's not a tank design problem but an anti air problem.

It's kinda like arguing a sword is obsolete because of the invention of the bow and arrow. The sword isn't the problem here
 
The bigger question to me is the social cost. I'm not in favor of paying it unless the government(s) are willing to impose a wealth tax to fund social improvements and/or increased defense expenditure.

feck paying for conventional armies (for most of Europe, it would be different if you're Poland where nearly 5% of GDP is going on defense???) if you have a crisis in homelessness, social mobility (housing), and healthcare. Basically an apartheid system under what used to be social welfare safety net. The US cannot cover the EU nor the Mid-East as it used to (official and unofficially) because it is looking toward China. But the EU cannot afford the kind of spending which the Americans are accustomed to. 2% of an economy ought to be more than sufficient. Different for each nation, but why would the UK spend more than that (unless it's a once off expenditure over years) when it is an island with nuclear submarines? The only nations to invade the UK in the past two thousand years have been Rome (Caesar) and France (1066; of course, Hitler tried, as did the Spanish Armada). But that's like four notable events in two-thousand years and with nuclear submarines how the feck can you justify more than 2% as necessary in defense?

Can't recall the actual term but it isn't armed carrier group (that is like aircraft carriers and destroyers iirc), other than that, I think it's close-ish. I'll let someone else address it. I'm out of my depth in very specific military technicalities.
While I fully agree about imposing a wealth tax, this logic is not only egoistic but also really short-sighted, luckily your leaders know better than that. One thing that the UK is a member of alliances and pledged to defend its allies (not altruistically, don't worry), so the UK army obviously cares about a wider range of defensive measures than just protecting the island. Second is that there's tangible, economic case to extending your influence further than the British Isles and if, for example, the Baltics were to be conquered by Russia, UK is losing money and influence big time.

This obviously applies to countries other than the UK, too.
 
Maybe in cyber warfare? It comes down to this for me: who is going to invade England? No one.

Then that you outline. Breaking away from the US. Is the UK, very anti-EU anyway, going to do that?
Yes I was referring to Europe (and NATO without the US) as a soft target, taking us as part of that block of allies. Things would have go get unimaginably dire for the UK to be invaded, very few countries would be able to even consider it.

However should one of our Allies be attacked - say Poland, as a historically relevant example - Article 5 would be triggered and we would be obligated to join the fight. At the moment NATO's response would be a rabble of piecemeal, underfunded forces. Unifying to whatever extent and strengthening these would act as a much greater deterrent.

On your second point, I'm not sure how much choice we'll have. They're retreating from Europe altogether and have (in less than a month under Trump) shown themselves to be unreliable at best, and hostile at worst to our concerns. Relying on them would be madness going forward, so why not strengthen allegiances closer to home?

I'm not expert on any of this, just an interested observer.
 
Maybe in cyber warfare? It comes down to this for me: who is going to invade England? No one.

Then that you outline. Breaking away from the US. Is the UK, very anti-EU anyway, going to do that?
In terms of security and military, which we talk about here, the UK and its current government are definitely not very anti-EU, not sure where you get that from
 
In terms of security and military, which we talk about here, the UK and its current government are definitely not very anti-EU, not sure where you get that from
Brexit. In terms of politics, America barks and the UK repeats the echo.

Other than that, interpol and nato. Yeah, I get that. But are Europe's interests also the UK's if you want to be cold about it.
 
Things would have go get unimaginably dire for the UK to be invaded, very few countries would be able to even consider it.
Land invasion by Russia is the least of anyone's worries, outside of Ukraine and maybe Baltics for decades to come. It doesn't mean that there isn't a million other horrible scenarios that could happen much sooner.
 
It's pretty much this. It's not a tank design problem but an anti air problem.

It's kinda like arguing a sword is obsolete because of the invention of the bow and arrow. The sword isn't the problem here
In the hypothetical situation that the EU is engaged with Russia in a military conflict, what do you think the biggest threat to the EU is?

How capable is Russia of actually maintaining a land invasion, considering the generally limited gains they've made in Ukraine?

Do you think those gains would have been more significant had it not been for the US and the EU propping up the Ukranian armed forces?

I keep reading that Russia hasn't thrown everything and the kitchen sink at Ukraine, that they've refrained from committing their full military might. Is that accurate? If so - why do you think that is? Maybe Putin didn't want to destroy his entire military fighting NATO to the last Ukrainian?
 
Depends if everyone can get together and standardize.

So the Americans get a huge bang for buck on all their systems just from the scale of the orders.

It's always cheaper to do R&D and then pay for 5000 frames/units than do the same R&D and then buy 200.

If say the EU + UK agree on using Panther KF51 as the standard MBT, negotiate a proper technology transfer and patent usage for BAE, Thales, CIO etc, the price per unit would come down immensely.

Then create, say a massive order of Tranche-3 Eurofighters of 500+, again the cost per unit will go down drastically.

As an example, right now the MoD is upgrading all the existing Challenger II's to Challenger III's, working out at around 9 million GBP per tank.

US just sold brand new M1A2 Abrams Sepv3 to Poland

https://www.gd.com/Articles/2022/08...-to-poland-under-foreign-military-sales-order

Working out to around 4.59 million USD per tank.

The UK upgrades to existing tanks is 2x the cost of what is practically brand new Sepv3's. (Although they are just using old chassis that were unused built in the 90's).
It's just the lack of scale that makes European procurement so expensive.

Appreciate the answer, thank you.
 
Re future of tanks, surely the goal will be essentially stripping them down to very cheap and very mobile artillery but with the ability to absorb some frontal damage. Basically one or two man, highly manoeuvrable off road vehicles with a decent anti armour gun and LMG? Instead of having a few of them you have loads across a front line.
 
Re future of tanks, surely the goal will be essentially stripping them down to very cheap and very mobile artillery but with the ability to absorb some frontal damage. Basically one or two man, highly manoeuvrable off road vehicles with a decent anti armour gun and LMG? Instead of having a few of them you have loads across a front line.

Light cavalry isn't really futuristic and it's not a substitute for MBTs.

Though I was reading something about the future of light cavalry.
 
No you are right, but it's incredibly frustrating reading stuff like this.

Military procurement and doctrine is a very technical field, that requires years and years of study to even begin to understand the basics. It's also ever evolving and it's also a topic that you can't really study or research in your spare time by reading articles online.

I've been in the field for over a decade and honestly there's a shit tonne of stuff that I still get wrong, that I make assumptions on and then find out it's actually not correct. Things like tank doctrine at the strategic and tactical level requires decades of experience first hand in command positions to fully understand and appreciate.

Imagine I go into a thread about vaccines and start spouting stuff about how it causes autism and how it's actually harmful etc despite having no background in medicine or biomedical sciences. I would definitely get shouted or laughed out the thread.

The confidence and arrogance displayed in the post above is really grating for that reason and it's basically like an anti vacc stance but on a wholly different topic.


Anyway I'll apologise for being condescending but the confidence in such a complex technical matter despite being so wrong is pretty irritating.

I might be way wrong but I have some recollection that @Ultimate Grib is, or at least was, a member of the armed forces. Dunno in what capacity.
 
Focus people. We're never getting to Tank Hag this way
Tank Hag.

There, done. Why does everything Airways have to be complicated with you guys.

And for the specialists:

Ten MBT.

You can thank me later.