EU discussion / and other European countries

[stefan92]

No, I thoroughly disagree. Especially since the findings of the paper make perfect sense in regards to the downfall of the SPD. That coincides with the agenda 2010. So the very moment the SPD abandoned social democratic principles and became a full blown neoliberal party, was the moment they started losing voters. They haven't recovered since, despite drifting to the right on immigration, because they lack a classically social democratic profile and aren't believable champions of the cause of the workers and the poor.
The policies advocated for and implemented by the Danish social democrats have done absolutely nothing to fight right wing parties. It has strengthened them and legitimized them. The same thing that happened everywhere else. It just happened in a slightly different way, because their social democrats also happened to have a classically social democratic profile. The minute that was gone, they fell in the surveys.
The big lesson from Danish politics should be the opposite of what so many people claim. Instead of becoming anti immigration parties, they should rediscover their roots.

I agree on a lot here, especially your final sentence. And now think about what Helmut Schmidt said about immigration.

 

[JPRouve]

No, I thoroughly disagree. Especially since the findings of the paper make perfect sense in regards to the downfall of the SPD. That coincides with the agenda 2010. So the very moment the SPD abandoned social democratic principles and became a full blown neoliberal party, was the moment they started losing voters. They haven't recovered since, despite drifting to the right on immigration, because they lack a classically social democratic profile and aren't believable champions of the cause of the workers and the poor.
The policies advocated for and implemented by the Danish social democrats have done absolutely nothing to fight right wing parties. It has strengthened them and legitimized them. The same thing that happened everywhere else. It just happened in a slightly different way, because their social democrats also happened to have a classically social democratic profile. The minute that was gone, they fell in the surveys.
The big lesson from Danish politics should be the opposite of what so many people claim. Instead of becoming anti immigration parties, they should rediscover their roots.

I was talking about that with family members yesterday the same thing happened under Sarkozy between 2007-2012 and they also never recovered.

 

[HTG]

I agree on a lot here, especially your final sentence. And now think about what Helmut Schmidt said about immigration.

Why would I? I know his stance. Him making these statements doesn't change anything in regards to our discussion. It still doesn't do anything to convince voters to vote social democrats. They can't gain anything by it. If they could, they would have done so by now. The SPD can't do anything about immigration that goes far enough for the right and is still socially democratic enough for their regular voters. That would only work, if the far right would be stagnant regarding their policies and statements. They aren't. The second the established parties move to the right and try to assimilate the demands of the far right, the far right moves even further to the right, widening the gap between established social democratic voters and the right, their parties are trying to appease to. It fails, because the far right wants it to. They have absolutely no reason to concede any ground to the established parties or to work with them. They also have no reason to actually help enact actual measures to improve the situation, as that would weaken them. They depend on keeping the gap between themselves and the establishment as big as possible, until they are in power themselves. Which is what we are seeing throughout Europe.
Which is why the right wing is rising and the left is losing ground. Actual leftists are unhappy with their parties and are becoming politically homeless, because nobody is actually acting in their interests, the middle becomes more radicalized and the right wing drifts ever further to the right. If this whole concept of taking the voters away from the parties would work, we would see it by now. Enough parties are doing this. The only ones who could have claimed success were the Danes. And even they must now face the reality, that they royally screwed up and are losing ground because of this shift.
The idea that this concept works is nothing but an illusion. It sound logical, but has not yet worked and there is no reason to believe it will in the future. All it does is to create a gigantic divide within society and it strengthens the right wing.

 

[stefan92]

Why would I? I know his stance. Him making these statements doesn't change anything in regards to our discussion. It still doesn't do anything to convince voters to vote social democrats. They can't gain anything by it. If they could, they would have done so by now. The SPD can't do anything about immigration that goes far enough for the right and is still socially democratic enough for their regular voters. That would only work, if the far right would be stagnant regarding their policies and statements. They aren't. The second the established parties move to the right and try to assimilate the demands of the far right, the far right moves even further to the right, widening the gap between established social democratic voters and the right, their parties are trying to appease to. It fails, because the far right wants it to. They have absolutely no reason to concede any ground to the established parties or to work with them. They also have no reason to actually help enact actual measures to improve the situation, as that would weaken them. They depend on keeping the gap between themselves and the establishment as big as possible, until they are in power themselves. Which is what we are seeing throughout Europe.
Which is why the right wing is rising and the left is losing ground. Actual leftists are unhappy with their parties and are becoming politically homeless, because nobody is actually acting in their interests, the middle becomes more radicalized and the right wing drifts ever further to the right. If this whole concept of taking the voters away from the parties would work, we would see it by now. Enough parties are doing this. The only ones who could have claimed success were the Danes. And even they must now face the reality, that they royally screwed up and are losing ground because of this shift.
The idea that this concept works is nothing but an illusion. It sound logical, but has not yet worked and there is no reason to believe it will in the future. All it does is to create a gigantic divide within society and it strengthens the right wing.

Pistorius won the last election in Lower Saxony for the SPD and kept the AfD small. Part of his campaign was that Lower Saxony was the state that did sent the most immigrants back home.

 

[HTG]

Pistorius won the last election in Lower Saxony for the SPD and kept the AfD small. Part of his campaign was that Lower Saxony was the state that did sent the most immigrants back home.

Pistorius wasn't their candidate. That was Stephan Weil. And in the last election, the SPD lost 3,5% of the vote, while the AfD gained 4,8%. He didn't keep them small. They almost doubled their votes. The biggest winner in that election were actually the Greens, gaining 5,8%. Which perfectly aligns with what I have stated before: becoming tougher on migration didn't work. They lost voters to the Greens (who are much more liberal regarding immigration) and the AfD continued to gain followers (mostly from former non-voters, if I remember correctly). The CDU, also getting tougher and tougher on immigration, also lost 5,5%.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landtagswahl_in_Niedersachsen_2022

My point stands. There is absolutely no proof that it is in any way a wise move for social democratic parties to drift to the right. They only lose in the long run and all of society with them.

 

[stefan92]

Pistorius wasn't their candidate. That was Stephan Weil. And in the last election, the SPD lost 3,5% of the vote, while the AfD gained 4,8%. He didn't keep them small. They almost doubled their votes. The biggest winner in that election were actually the Greens, gaining 5,8%. Which perfectly aligns with what I have stated before: becoming tougher on migration didn't work. They lost voters to the Greens (who are much more liberal regarding immigration) and the AfD continued to gain followers (mostly from former non-voters, if I remember correctly). The CDU, also getting tougher and tougher on immigration, also lost 5,5%.
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landtagswahl_in_Niedersachsen_2022

My point stands. There is absolutely no proof that it is in any way a wise move for social democratic parties to drift to the right. They only lose in the long run and all of society with them.

Sorry, I was thinking about the election 2017, not 2022. My mistake, as I completely missed it 2022 due to living somewhere else. And yes of course Weil was at the top of the party, I was thinking about Pistorious as he was responsible for that as minister of home affairs.