A bigger wonder is why anyone believes gossip news
Erik ten Hag | 2024/25 | Sacked
- Thread starter Cheimoon
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He'll be gone long before that.
Its not like he would be sacked in October. I doubt the board will be that impatient. It seems they have a plan and had long discussions during the summer, considering all options. They won't sack him so soon, because if that were the case he would've been sacked in the summer. I think 3 more months is a fair amount of time for him to prove himself and get back on track.
I really enjoyed this post.I think the extent of the change compared to last season has actually been disappointingly little. I didn't watch any of our pre-season games so can't comment on those but I thought we played really well against City in the Community Shield and also in the first half vs Fulham. The team looked more compact, were pressing better etc. We actually had the second highest defensive line in the league on the opening weekend. But against both Brighton and Liverpool, a lot of the same issues have resurfaced. Even against Brighton, where I do think there were positive signs in the first half, we mostly struggled to move the ball into their defensive third. Again, a constant issue for Ten Hag's United over his 2 seasons, we just don't seem to be able to progress the ball with any conviction and often resort to bypassing the midfield entirely by playing long from our defensive third.
And the stats are already starting to reflect the same much dissected problems with United's system - pressing structure is poor, struggle to get the ball into the opposition's defensive third, struggle to sustain pressure once if we do manage to get the ball into the opposition's defensive third because if we lose the ball there, our pressing structure is too poor to win it back or pin the opposition/defend transitions, defensive line is too deep and drops off too readily even when their starting position is high leaving a massive gap for the midfield to cover etc. Over three games (admittedly a very small sample but when it is repeating the same patterns as the 38 games last season, it isn't unreasonable to worry) -
For reference, field tilt measures the relative number of touches in your defensive third vs the oppositions defensive third. Meaning, if you exclude all the touches by both teams in the middle third, if roughly 75% of all remaining touches happen in the opposition final third, then you have a field tilt of 75% in your favour. Now obviously, this needs to be contextualized - if you are keeping the ball in your own defensive third in the hopes of baiting the opposition press (think De Zerbi's Brighton), you will have a lower field tilt. Plus, obviously quality of opposition also matters. We've played Liverpool and Brighton - both excellent teams who we were never going to pin back and dominate for 90 mins - but again, this is a continuation of a pattern from last season. And it is interesting in the above graphic that both us and Arsenal have roughly the same field tilt (around 50%) but combining this stat with our average defensive line height does highlight familiar failings for United, in my view. Add the context of what % of our possession happen in our own half -
And again, our field tilt of ~50% is not necessarily because we are successfully baiting the opposition press. In fact, we spend relatively little time in possession in our own half. Also interesting how high Spurs are on both the % of possession in their own half and field tilt - suggests their possession structure works much better at getting the ball in the opposition third than ours does, and is also much better at sustaining pressure in the final third through their pressing structure. Again, the data clearly shows this (both the positive for Spurs and the issues for us -
Again, I'd add the caveat that Spurs being so good at these metrics does not equate to their impending glorious season or our impending doom. For one, Spurs cannot defend for shit. But the data does reveal a lot about tactical structures and intent. Guardiola and Postecoglou's teams (for instance) have a clear and visible tactical identity - they build patiently from the back, keep possession and move patiently through the thirds, if they lose the ball in the final third, they mostly press in an organized manner to pin teams back, and they play a high defensive line to compress the pitch to make their press more effective. Tactical intent is also clearly visible for Southampton (even though they seem, at least to me, to be in for a LONG season with how they are playing) - they are the lower table side most visibly trying to implement the Guardiola blueprint. Again, the usual caveats of only a three game sample size and we have to account for quality of opposition faced - it's not a coincidence that Leicester's field tilt and defensive line height are the exact mirror of Spurs'. Or that Ipswich, having faced City and Liverpool are among the teams with the poorest field tilts and deepest defensive line.
But again, our numbers are a continuation of last season's. I don't expect Ten Hag to ever fix our defensive issues. A while back, there was a video doing the rounds of Ruud Gullit and Ten Hag debating his Ajax side's transition defending (and how much space they leave in midfield) and while Ten Hag conceded some points, his basic stance of 'these are risks you have to take to play an aggressive, entertaining style of football' is quite revealing about his coaching principles. He, much like everyone else in the world, sees the issues with our transition defending, he just thinks the risk is worth the reward if you can get the attack clicking. Problem is, we've not improved in possession nearly enough to justify this structure, yet. I would give him till the next international. We have a relatively comfortable fixture list coming up, which should give him ample opportunity to show the improvements in possession. If the numbers still look terrible, we should thank him for the two trophies and move him on and start assessing the tactical structures (and their fit to the Premier League) of the likes of Ruben Amorim, Sebastian Hoeness and Simone Inzaghi.
I'd also add that I think the issues with defensive line height are largely an issue with how direct play rather than the pace (or lack thereof) of our backline but this post is already much longer than I intended so I will leave you to it.
Bonus graph for the 'our players are too lazy/not inclined to press/unwilling to engage with the physicality of the league' crowd -
I think it was both well argued and well written as far as United is concerned.
But most of all, I probably enjoyed it because I'm a somewhat naive Spurs fan that's long since given up on us winning anything, so these days I just want us to be playing good attacking football.
I think we're doing that currently, for better or for worse, and that impression seem to be backed up by these metrics where we are an outler in all of them.
Nah, if results don't improve by next International window he's gone. They won't feck around.
I really wanted to get him sacked as soon as Hansi was free, he would have been the perfect manager for us. But now that he's out of options, I don't see anyone who would be a good match for us, even though there are many (too many) managers who are better than ETH.
I'm always fascinated how many people think of Hansi Flick as a top tier manager.
I'd not seen these quotes before but they're thoroughly infuriating. He has absolutely no inspiring aspects about him at all. Going into our third year after spending £600m and he's saying we're a really long way off still...this guy has the best job on earth. And there's fans like you and others who just accept this and lap it up.
One common theme in coaches bringing on their own sacking is often a stubbornness to change. In ETH case it likely depends on how long he chooses to play rashford and Casemiro and not be wedded to absurd tactics which have us move forward before securing the defense. If he's able to see the obvious and make changes, maybe results will turn around.
Besides, he's always been good when it's a backs to the wall situation.
Besides, he's always been good when it's a backs to the wall situation.
I'd bring Rangnick back to be honest
Is he a fraud just like Hag?
You don't win a treble not being a top manager.
I'd say he is more like a better Ole - someone who can go on a great initial run based on existing structures, vibes and a purple patch. But not someone I would entrust to develop a club.
EtH is someone who could do that, but simply is out of depths in Manchester.
His treble was won in a single leg champions league run and Bayern were far stronger than their competition in Germany.
His time with the NT calls into question his abilities.
I wouldn't be surprised if he could win another treble with Barcelona
Bottom line is that he isn't their guy just like Moyes wasn't Woodward' s guy. Under those circumstances it's easier cut cord and let go because they will say we gave him a chance but he refused/failed to implement what we agreed on in the summer. They can always spin it that we didn't want to settle on a long term hire without Berrada and Ashworth in place, now they are in place they have decided Coach X is our guy for the next couple of years.
He is not really smart, he should have returned to basics and played on the break for now. Bruno, Rashford and Casemiro are suited to that and he would have got the security that results bring. Then continue evolving the squad or at least reach a point where your forwards have returned to confidence and start again.
Moyes was only sacked when it was mathematically impossible to get into top 4.
They had the chance to sack Ten Hag if they were so desperate to get rid.
Everyone and their mother has been crying that that's not an acceptable style of play for United
Well we only have 3 points from 1 win so we're about the same so it's not as far fetched as some seem to think.
Actually not, some have, maybe even many have, but I grew up watching early SAF, the hallmark was playing on the break, I have no idea why people think we need to copy city et al in possession based, high press football, I for one would much rather see us playing on the break than the shite we currently serve up, or at least a hybrid where we drop back properly and concede possession stats, over all we should be able to adapt
And the day we implement full tika-taka I take a sabbatical from Utd... I watch football to be entertained not amazed that we can make 80 passes in a row, please let us move away from the Dutch/Barca model not towards it, absolute boring shite, do not care how successful it is, it is dross.
Playing on the break got us consecutive top 4 finishes under Ole, moving away from that was the catalyst for us tanking and losing Ole his job, Leicester won the league playing that way not that long ago, if you try to copy City then you need to be better than them, we are not going to best Guardiola at his own game as Arsenal are discovering. We have the players in Rashford, Hoijlund, Amad and Garnacho to absolutely annihilate teams that push up, where we came unstuck previously is against teams that sit in, in those games we need to do something different, we should focus on two tactics and switch between them as appropriate, instead of persisting with the pie in the sky tactics that ETH has which require 10 supermen outfield players to execute
We absolutely need to qualify for the champions league, even at the cost of not winning a trophy. The lost revenues from not being in CL clearly hurt us a lot and our spending will be restricted further since we need to comply with PSR guidelines. So if Ten Hag can’t get it, he needs to go and hopefully not until it’s too late.
Who are these people who had a chance to sack ETH, 100% not Berrada and Ashworth.
I said previously in this post, keeping ETH is a Ineos directorship decision, which sadly mirrors Glazers decisions, but NOT the top football leadership PEOPLE who have been given ETH to work with him, so it's not rocket science if they don't see any form of positive trend ETH will be sacked by Ashworth
patterns and routines not there yet
we have to win every game
he keeps saying that a lot
we have to win every game
he keeps saying that a lot
Sets out an unrealistic standard (winning every game) to reframe the criticism as though that is why people are unhappy.
It's a very transparent tactic of deflecting criticism and he does quite a lot of little things like that which are becoming progressively more irritating.
Sadly, I've come to believe that he is not the the brightest candle on the cake.
It's weird but the people that support him like him because he says the right things, however he does the opposite from all the things he says. Anyone can stand there and say we have to win every game, well fecking do it lad, you're one of the only people in the world that can directly influence that outcome.
We could lose the next 4 league games between now and the next international break and he is still going to be here. He won’t be sacked anytime soon.
Get Neil Lennon in then...
What will you say if he walks la liga this season?
From what I remember his Bayern team played really great football, a level I don't think they have reached again yet
I will say "cry"
Sometimes I don’t get him
I think he thinks he's making a point that Ronaldo said United can't win the league, not him, but he's also not saying that, he's actually saying Ronaldo lives in Saudi and it's okay to have opinions...
If he loses the next four he’s gone and Ruud is temp manager. Not a chance they stick with him starting the 1-1-5.
And people will still be advocating for him.
I'm sorry but I really don't understand what you are trying to say here.
Attempted insult by saying he's a washed player and not good enough to play in Europe presumably.
Surely you can't be that naive. Both were in gardening leave at that point and already knew they would be United employees. They're hardly going to publicly say they were in the decision making process but obviously both would've been in the loop.
I think INEOS preference is something similar to Klopp's style with Liverpool. Fast paced, aggressive, with modern principles but plenty of framework for entertainment.
I've always said that my main issue with Ole was that he was completely unable to coach his teams to play out of a press from the back consistently. It's why we got swamped possession wise so often, majority of the time we wouldn't get out of our own half for 15-20 minutes at a time.
Ideally we play similar to Madrid: fluid enough to where we can possess/control games against lesser teams but also be able to defend from a block and counter with efficiency if needed against a team like City who's never going to cede possession. I can't stand JDP football even if I understand why it works
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