England - Euro 2021 Discussion | FA chairman: Southgate to be offered new contract until Euro 2024

England fans really do love a moan . That was a perfectly fine performance and considering that it was the first game against a decent team it’s a great result
 
Constantly morally self righteous people are so fecking dull. There's always a little bit of nastiness behind it, lurking behind that thin veneer of upstandingness.
 
Ayush_reddevil said:
England fans really do love a moan . That was a perfectly fine performance and considering that it was the first game against a decent team it’s a great result
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Agree, we played nice attacking football, pressed high, made the win look easy and didn't let them create a single chance. Job very well done.
 
Classical Mechanic said:
I'll give you France, Portugal and Germany but the others are arguable. Modric is obviously a top player and although past his best is still very classy. He is exactly the kind of player England needs. Brozovic is very highly rated and won Serie A with Inter this season. Kovacic is a very gifted player but I think there's some psychological frailty with him.

Croatia are a decent side but yes England are better than them. England actually has a really good record against Croatia WC2018 semi-final aside. We were better than them in both games in the Nations League straight after the World Cup winning one and drawing the other in Croatia.
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Not sure why they are arguable. Modric isn't the same player he used to be, but i do agree he's exactly what England needs right now. Croatia are simply vastly overrated based on their world cup, which was a surprise in itself. Penalties against Denmark, penalties against Russia and then lucked out vs England, completely dominated by France in the final.
 
Sphaero said:
And people should maybe start asking themselves why this is the case. Call me biased if you want but having seen so much of him at both Club and Nation level, they just don´t feel like the same players and I don´t just mean the sheer quality of the performances.

The biggest differences are his approaches to the game. Some differences are of tactical nature like far less roaming on the field (the offensive midfielder at Dortmund interchange positions a lot to be less predictable) but others are harder to explain. While at Dortmund he always played with the desire to make as much of an impact on the game as possible, in the majority of the England matches he played like someone who tried to make as few mistakes as possible. You can also see this in the offensive stats all across the board (shots, key passes, dribblings), not just the successful ones but also the attempts. If you would just watch games in the English shirt, you would not think that he is a skilled dribbler with strong close control, a whole lot of trickery and a very good eye for the final pass as he brings himself in so few situations where he can actually show that.

If you stip away his often times unpredictable style and strengths in key passing and 1v1, the creative footballer Jadon Sancho starts to look fairly ordinary really fast.

I don´t know why Sancho plays with such a small amount of confidence for England. If I would have to take a guess, he looks like a player who does not feel backed by his coach and harmstrings hiimself as a result. Looking at his match history with England and how a drop from the starting line up after a single mediocre game was not a rare occurance there might be something to it. You can´t build up a young player if you don´t allow him to make mistakes. Maybe Southgate does not feel the need to do that given the quality in the English offensive department and will be proven right with good results largely without Sanchos influence. Maybe it will backfire and not utilising Sanchos qualities to its fullest extend will leave them short of offensive edge. Only time will tell.
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Sancho's England career hasn't really got going yet, nor has Grealish. I wouldn't be as strong to say Sancho has been dropped rather just tried a few times randomly when possible.

Ideally Southgate would be further ahead but there's a lot of players coming through plus strong senior players. Sancho hasn't had a lot of time with the setup or experienced playing with the first team enough. It's not been a good year or two with Covid so it will take while for everyone to get to know each other and how to utilize him. He will have to show more individual strengths probably to retain a place in the future as well. Think he can do it once he's back here.
 
ClaytonBlackmoorLeftPeg said:
i don’t think a selection of caftards is a good indication of England fans.

everyone I know thinks it’s a really good result, gives us something to build on - and we’ve got players who can come into the team and perhaps improve in.

great start.

this place, as we’ve seen when United play is always negative. It’s not indicative of England fans.
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Glad to hear it. The more right you are, the better. But the combination of entitlement and hyper-negativity was not something I first encountered on this board. Let's hope it's on its long overdue way out.
 
I thought England were pretty good tonight. Completely nullified Croatia - did they even have a shot? And played some decent stuff going forward. Nothing special, but they looked up for it and there was an element of synergy between the players.

Croatia aren't a bad side, either. Not really got much up front, but their midfield has some real quality and their defence is solid. Of course I'd have liked more than 1-0, but it's a fine start and we've beaten the strongest team in the group.
 
England's transitional play is going to be interesting, more so if Kane persists in coming deep.
 
If Mount and Foden play well, a little better than they did today, England will have a good chance for a championship. Those two are just so skillful. Sterling goal does not mean he should be a automatic starter. If you can replace Graelish with Sterling that's a dangerous side. I think Southgate will go those 3 as the tournament moves along, he needs to rotate some for the group.
 
Didn't see anything to suggest to me that England will beat one of the top teams in this competition. Think this Croatia team is a pretty past it side and the young players they have brought through are in no comparison to the ones who've just retied and made a huge difference to their national side.

Obviously will get out of the group but I don't think anyone will look at England and not fancy beating them in the knockout stages. Experience will be key and that's something this England team don't have right now
 
UncleBob said:
Not sure why they are arguable. Modric isn't the same player he used to be, but i do agree he's exactly what England needs right now. Croatia are simply vastly overrated based on their world cup, which was a surprise in itself. Penalties against Denmark, penalties against Russia and then lucked out vs England, completely dominated by France in the final.
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they didn't luck out vs England, they had a bad first half and then slowly methodically broke England down with better football. Sure, another day and maybe they are 2-0 down by halftime and can't come back from it, but it wasn't what i'd consider a lucky performance.

They played well against France for about 60 minutes and could have been leading at half-time. the french first 2 goals were not particularly deserved through good play.
 
gerdm07 said:
If Mount and Foden play well, a little better than they did today, England will have a good chance for a championship. Those two are just so skillful. Sterling goal does not mean he should be a automatic starter. If you can replace Graelish with Sterling that's a dangerous side. I think Southgate will go those 3 as the tournament moves along, he needs to rotate some for the group.
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I would be concerned about playing all 3 of Grealish Mount and Foden, they're too similar. The attack could do with at least 1 player who has pace and strengths lie off the ball running/movement, which is why Sterling started today and where a lot of our dangerous moments come from. Having 3 technical players behind Kane who all want the ball to feet may be overkill.
 
Ibi Dreams said:
I thought England were pretty good tonight. Completely nullified Croatia - did they even have a shot? And played some decent stuff going forward. Nothing special, but they looked up for it and there was an element of synergy between the players.

Croatia aren't a bad side, either. Not really got much up front, but their midfield has some real quality and their defence is solid. Of course I'd have liked more than 1-0, but it's a fine start and we've beaten the strongest team in the group.
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The result was good but we were horrible to watch and I strongly suspect a better side would have punished us quite badly.
 
UnitedSofa said:
Foden is an incredible talent, don’t think Sancho should start ahead of him. Maybe alongside him in a front 3.

Sure his club form is amazing but Sancho hasn’t exactly lit up the place whilst in an England shirt.
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Sancho and Foden are the same age. If Foden did what Sancho has in his career so far, people would literally be calling him Messi in England. But since it didn't happen in the premier league, it's not a thing.

Foden is a huge talent, but he hasn't shown that he's close to being the same level of talent as Sancho yet. Saying otherwise is just one of those "seen a lot of one and very little of the other" IMO, because nobody who has seen Sancho for the past 3 years would say that Foden is a better player (and I'm sure most here would be surprised to hear they're the same age).
 
Also yeah saw people downplaying Grealish's absence by saying Foden or Mount... sorry. Neither are a patch on Grealish. Mount is very good and should for sure be in the 11, but so should Grealish. Grealish should be one of the first names on the team sheet without a doubt IMO. 4-3-3 with Kane as the 9, 2 of Sancho/Rashford/Foden/Sterling on the wings, Mount/Bellingham and Grealish either side of Rice/Phillips in midfield and then Shaw and James at fullback should be the way to go. In tougher games understandable to go Phillips and Rice together and push Grealish to the left wing. You have both technically quality and physically adept players all over the pitch, and players who all suit each other and how they play. But Grealish for sure has to be in that starting 11.

Based on todays showing, Walker, Sterling and Foden shouldn't be starting the next one. Trippier would be fine at RB but he shouldn't be at LB ahead of Shaw or Chilwell, that's just a joke and lucky that he wasn't threatened at all since Croatia don't have any wingers to play on the right.
 
bosnian_red said:
Sancho and Foden are the same age. If Foden did what Sancho has in his career so far, people would literally be calling him Messi in England. But since it didn't happen in the premier league, it's not a thing.

Foden is a huge talent, but he hasn't shown that he's close to being the same level of talent as Sancho yet. Saying otherwise is just one of those "seen a lot of one and very little of the other" IMO, because nobody who has seen Sancho for the past 3 years would say that Foden is a better player (and I'm sure most here would be surprised to hear they're the same age).
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Strange you see it that way. I thought Foden is at least equal to Sancho at the moment. PL is a much tougher league to play when compared with BL, and Foden is surely the biggest young talent in PL right now, far better than the likes of Havertz and Werner, who shines in BL in previous season. I'd even say the gap shown between Foden and Havertz/Werner in PL this season, is far greater than the gap shown between Sancho and Havertz/Werner in BL in previous seasons.
 
RedRonaldo said:
Strange you see it that way. I thought Foden is at least equal to Sancho at the moment. PL is a much tougher league to play when compared with BL, and Foden is surely the biggest young talent in PL right now, far better than the likes of Havertz and Werner, who shines in BL in previous season.
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Werner and Havertz weren't close to Sancho when they were in the Bundesliga (and just had their first years in the prem, and both outshone Foden in the CL final). Foden hasn't done anything until this season, and even in the stacked City side playing as a forward he is nowhere near as productive as Sancho. Sancho has just as many goals in 12 fewer appearances, is on a different world to Foden when it comes to close control dribbling, is a better passer, is a more creative player, is a more consistent player, and has had 3 seasons of excellence with creativity at the very top level in Europe.

I'm not denying that Foden is a very good youngster. But he just isn't on par with Sancho despite being the same age based on anything they've shown until now in their careers. There's nothing statistically that backs it up with goals or assists this year or for the past 3 years, nor in underlying statistics like xG/xA, any dribbling stats, any passing stats like key or progressive passing, any sort of creativity... Genuinely, what does Foden do better than Sancho? Or is it entirely because he's in the PL and had a decent year (let's not kid ourselves and say it was a special year), while Sancho has been tearing up the Bundesliga and performing well in the CL since the age of 18.
 
In the context of tournament football that was a fine start. No suprise to see us with a more solid line up than most would like with us playing the only other side that could potentially beat us to 1st place in our group.

Expect us to open up slightly more against Scotland and then even more again if we beat Scotland as expected.

Expect Shaw or Chilwell as well as James to come in for the full backs. I don't see a change happening in the centre of the park after Rice and Phillips looked great today.

Foden likely will drop out for one of Grealish or Rashford.
 
Why the feck was Trippier playing left back instead of Shaw or Chillwell? Shitty decision, which made for a rather boring display overall. Shaw has proven that he can bomb up and down the field. Don't get me wrong, England were flying for periods. No Grealish and Sancho? Bollacks. Overly pragmatic=yawn. Don't rate Sterling. I may get crucified for that, but I've never liked him. I will say, what about Phillips? England's most confident player today!
 
mariachi-19 said:
From a neutral standpoint, England were good for the first 20 minutes, then rather poor considering the opposition. 1-0 against a team which was virtually Mordic on his own is not a good result.
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It’s a better result than any other.
England are better off if they grind out wins in the group stages all the whole rotating their starters till Southfield finds the prefect in form 11.
That’ll keep expectations lower. If they beat Croatia 3-0 the press would be saying they’ll win the whole thing.
 
Sancho and Grealish gotta be rubbing their hands together after Mount and Foden's performances.

Also Ming's and Stones was a surprisingly solid partnership. Thought they complimented each other well. The frustrating thing is I think this team has a gear or 2 to step up but I fear under Southgate it's never going to happen.
 
InspiRED said:
Constantly morally self righteous people are so fecking dull. There's always a little bit of nastiness behind it, lurking behind that thin veneer of upstandingness.
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I am still lost, even after Google translating this post in my native language.

What's this fella trying to say?
 
bosnian_red said:
Werner and Havertz weren't close to Sancho when they were in the Bundesliga (and just had their first years in the prem, and both outshone Foden in the CL final). Foden hasn't done anything until this season, and even in the stacked City side playing as a forward he is nowhere near as productive as Sancho. Sancho has just as many goals in 12 fewer appearances, is on a different world to Foden when it comes to close control dribbling, is a better passer, is a more creative player, is a more consistent player, and has had 3 seasons of excellence with creativity at the very top level in Europe.

I'm not denying that Foden is a very good youngster. But he just isn't on par with Sancho despite being the same age based on anything they've shown until now in their careers. There's nothing statistically that backs it up with goals or assists this year or for the past 3 years, nor in underlying statistics like xG/xA, any dribbling stats, any passing stats like key or progressive passing, any sort of creativity... Genuinely, what does Foden do better than Sancho? Or is it entirely because he's in the PL and had a decent year (let's not kid ourselves and say it was a special year), while Sancho has been tearing up the Bundesliga and performing well in the CL since the age of 18.
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Thing is, you view perdormance/stats in PL and BL are more or less equal, hence comes to conclusion that Sancho>Foden. While its very hard for me to view that way.

For example, previous season in BL + Europe:

Sancho - 19 goals, 18 assists, 7.28-7.64 avg rating, 7 motm
Werner - 32 Goals, 10 assists, 7.13-7.60 avg rating, 11 motm
Havertz - 16 goals, 8 assists, 7.24-7.69 avg rating, 5 motm

vs this season in PL + Europe:

Foden: 12 goals 8 assists, 7.14-7.49 avg rating, 7 motm
Werner: 10 gaols 10 assists, 6.81-6.86 avg rating, 2 motm
Havertz - 5 goals, 5 assists, 6.60-7.09 avg rating, 3 motm

Its quite clear there's far greater gap between Foden vs Werner/Havertz this season than Sancho vs Werner/Havertz in previous season.

Until Sancho play a full season in PL vs Foden, I really can't tell with confidence that Sancho is better.
 
I dont care about England, but watching Southgate managing this side is like if you let David Moyes manage prime 2011 Barca. Sure maybe they would still win, but the team will play at 20% of its potential.

I'm pretty sure he saw the criticism of previous England XIs cramming all their best players together, and his genius thought was "Yes so lets not play Shaw/Chilwell at Left back and Grealish just because they are the best players". But the problem never was cramming all your best players in a team, it was playing your best players in positions they are not comfortable in like Lampard/Gerrard in a midfield 2. England still making the same mistakes. This is the XI I would choose. The front 3 will be fluid, and Philips/Henderson can come in when you need more defensive solidarity.

-------------------Pickford
Walker--Stones--Maguire--Shaw
--------------------Rice
-----------Mount-----Grealish
----Sancho----Kane-----Foden

And his football is negative and boring af.
 
mariachi-19 said:
From a neutral standpoint, England were good for the first 20 minutes, then rather poor considering the opposition. 1-0 against a team which was virtually Mordic on his own is not a good result.
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Nonsense. A team who just tried to kill the pace of the game every time they got the ball makes it very difficult. 1-0 is an excellent result for England.
 
Grealish/Rashford-Kane-Sterling/Sancho

is what I'd go for. I think Rashford, Grealish and Sancho give a certain level of flair that will help open teams up.
 
UncleBob said:
Not sure why they are arguable. Modric isn't the same player he used to be, but i do agree he's exactly what England needs right now. Croatia are simply vastly overrated based on their world cup, which was a surprise in itself. Penalties against Denmark, penalties against Russia and then lucked out vs England, completely dominated by France in the final.
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Oh but it is arguable Bob.

Whilst Modric is not at the peak of his powers he absolutely hasn't declined like a Bale or a latter day Rooney. He made the most appearances for an outfield player for Real last season where his team lost out on the title by two points. He had his highest goal contribution of his career and he is still elite in many aspects of the game when compared to all players from the top 5 leagues. I'd confidently say that he's still one of the best midfielders in the world.

https://fbref.com/en/players/6025fab1/scout/365_euro/Luka-Modric-Scouting-Report

Brozovic just won the Italian league with Inter. Admittedly I don't know that much about him but I've seen people on here saying that we should sign him plenty of times. Looking at his stats compared to all other players in the top leagues and he's another elite passer of the ball.

https://fbref.com/en/players/33b8d077/scout/365_euro/Marcelo-Brozovic-Scouting-Report

Kovacic is another elite passer of the ball and possession player. He lacks badly in attacking contribution but is a stat monster in other areas of the game. Whilst he's not a nailed on starter for his club he's still operating at the very elite level of the game and is a highly decorated player who has played in a World Cup Final and a Champions League final.

https://fbref.com/en/players/79c0821a/scout/365_euro/Mateo-Kovacic-Scouting-Report

All in it's a pretty formidable midfield especially when it comes to possession and passing. It is one of the best in the tournament. England actually dominated it in the first half and took 60% possession but there were always going to be spells where they would dominate the ball.

Croatia have been poor since WC2018 but I think they're underachieving rather than them not having the players. England do have a better squad all in but I feel that we were deserving winners yesterday and the stats support that. In many recent tournaments we've seen England make very hard work of teams much worse than Croatia. It was the first time that we've won the first game in the Euros! Our record in this competition has been pretty terrible. Southgate gets hammered but he's made many small steps of progress as England manager.
 
Why do people get so hurt that others don't think it was a good performance and is being way too hyped up? Get a grip or just block everyone who has a differing opinion to you. I'm sure a forum of people who agree with you will make for a scintillating read.

'England were good'
'I agree'
'I agree'
'England were great'

Best seller there.

England barely left their half of the pitch yesterday after the first twenty minutes. It seems odd for a forum that lambasted Mourinho to then not understand the criticism for the same negative performance for England. That performance will only win the competition through sheer luck; it will not allow for the quality of the players we have to shine through.

Also, Croatia is not a good side. It would have been a massive failure not to beat them. Their forward line and defence is distinctly average.

Perisic - One of his biggest attributes was his ability to press all game. He was one of those high stamina players who had good ability, but he doesn't have that anymore.

Modric - Struggled a lot in midfield for Real Madrid this season. In the Champions League, Real Madrid were lucky to get out of the group, let alone make it to the semi finals. They were shown up by Chelsea for what they are now.

Brozovic - He is a pretty good player, but Inter Milan were not a team this season that dominated games. You could see how they struggled in the Champions League and when they played better sides. They were very good at putting the lesser sides in Serie A away, though.

Rakitic - Retired.

We see more adventurous football from far lesser sides. I don't know why it is seen as so absurd that England fans can't expect the same from much better players.
 
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Annihilate Now! said:
Will Grealish start a game (a non dead rubber) at this Euros?

My guess would be no.

Personally, I think he should be ahead of Mount... Nothing against Mount but Grealish is just a better player.

There was a moment in the second half where Mount turned, went on a run, got fouled and the commentary team wet themselves over it, and I'm thinking... Grealish does that 3 or 4 times per game.
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Maybe the reason Mount starts over him is because he has played plenty games (and won) at the highest level against top caliber oppositions in a competition called the Champions league; as against playing week in week out against premiership bums alone.
 
Its not the team I would have started, but we won and I can see reasoning for his choices. But Trippier at left back was the stupidest move Ive ever seen. Did he play badly? No. But still there is absolutely no reasoning to do stupid sht like dropping 2 of the best left backs in the country in Shaw and Chilwell for a RB that hardly ever plays LB. No one will ever convince me otherwise whether we won or not.
 
UpWithRivers said:
Its not the team I would have started, but we won and I can see reasoning for his choices. But Trippier at left back was the stupidest move Ive ever seen. Did he play badly? No. But still there is absolutely no reasoning to do stupid sht like dropping 2 of the best left backs in the country in Shaw and Chilwell for a RB that hardly ever plays LB. No one will ever convince me otherwise whether we won or not.
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I agree I was well confused in the knowledge we had Shaw + Chilwell. But this was Southgate's take on it...

“We felt that his talking across the backline and his ability to get out and stop crosses quickly and his experience on a day like today - alongside Tyrone Mings, who is relatively early in his international career - would be a good stabilising element.”
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Still slightly bemused at the reaction to yesterdays game. I think more questions need to be ask of England's style irrespective of the result.

We've seen two teams in Italy and Holland who look far more cohesive with the ball than we do. Minor moments we're still a incredibly patchy side to watch.
 
MU655 said:
Why do people get so hurt that others don't think it was a good performance and is being way too hyped up? Get a grip or just block everyone who has a differing opinion to you. I'm sure a forum of people who agree with you will make for a scintillating read.

'England were good'
'I agree'
'I agree'
'England were great'

Best seller there.

England barely left their half of the pitch yesterday after the first twenty minutes. It seems odd for a forum that lambasted Mourinho to then not understand the criticism for the same negative performance for England. That performance will only win the competition through sheer luck; it will not allow for the quality of the players we have to shine through.

Also, Croatia is not a good side. It would have been a massive failure not to beat them. Their forward line and defence is distinctly average.

Perisic - One of his biggest attributes was his ability to press all game. He was one of those high stamina players who had good ability, but he doesn't have that anymore.

Modric - Struggled a lot in midfield for Real Madrid this season. In the Champions League, Real Madrid were lucky to get out of the group, let alone make it to the semi finals. They were shown up by Chelsea for what they are now.

Brozovic - He is a pretty good player, but Inter Milan were not a team this season that dominated games. You could see how they struggled in the Champions League and when they played better sides. They were very good at putting the lesser sides in Serie A away, though.

Rakitic - Retired.

We see more adventurous football from far lesser sides. I don't know why it is seen as so absurd that England fans can't expect the same from much better players.
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Yesterday you said that you didn't like following England because the fans are too entitled or negative, since then you've proven yourself to be one hell of an England fan.

Back in the Euro 2020 qualifying campaign England did play very attacking football. We setup in a 4-3-3 and averaged 5 goals a game in that campaign. We thrashed a lot of smaller nations but in a game against Kosovo we won 5-3. They were an unremarkable side but well coached and they were able to play through us far too easily. Since then Southgate changed his approach to defensive solidity first. In international football many sides with very talented squads take this approach. Portugal and France who won the last two international tournaments this way. In 2014 Argentina started the World Cup final with two defensive midfielders. What Southgate is doing is not an aberration but something that many sides that are successful in international football do.

The best way to measure the balance of a game is through xG, it shows who created the best chances and therefore 'deserved' to win. Yesterday the xG was 1.47 - 0.43 in England's favour. It shows that England were the better side that managed the game and deserved a victory. There was no element of 'luck' in the victory yesterday. Given our very poor form in recent international tournaments it was actually one of our best victories since 1996.

It's not a case of being upset, it's a different perspective of what is a good performance actually is given the variables at play and what is the best approach for England in this tournament. I don't feel that England are entitled to go out and thrash a side like Croatia playing champagne attacking football and I do feel that a more defensive solidity first approach is right for England. I'd go as far as saying that an attacking approach would see us get thrashed by some of the top nations because our midfield are not good enough at dominating the ball and the defence is too weak at centre back.
 
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