People will still defend Southgate, though. As we saw once he returned to United, it wasn't just a good game. He was in the form of his life and Southgate chose a player who was obviously not ready to play ahead of him.
England Discussion
- Thread starter Samid
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RLC deserved the call up. I don't think we need that many attackers in the squad.
By the way, @Rooney in Paris , to be fair to Southgate, Sterling didn't start the game. He was just brought on ahead of Rashford. Rashford was like a last minute sub for some reason.
I'll be in the minority, but I think Southgate has got the squad spot on
I think this is probably true. Who knows the real story but its clear that something happened behind the scenes between White and Holland.
All I will say is that Ben White has been a model professional at Arsenal. Arteta is a very demanding manager and he has never had even the smallest problem or complaint with White, even after White lost his RCB place when Saliba came back from loan. Never caused any issue in the squad, never been late for training or had any other kind of disciplinary issue (in fact reportedly one of our best trainers), played through injuries on multiple occasions to help the team, etc. He was also very well thought of at both Brighton and Leeds.
What dirt has Henderson got on Southgate then?
Credible rumour going around that seems more plausible than a bust up with Holland
Fo these friendlies, a definte yes. They are auditioning for one spot
Henderson is there to cover Rice. No one else available can do that job, with Phillips in the doldrums. Not even JWP.
Mainoo could have done it. He’ll be better than Henderson in that position.
Frankly, Mainoo has zero business being selected at this stage. The Euros isn't the place to be experimenting with that role. Mainoo would only make sense over a Henderson for the squad if Phillips was still there. But not over him for a role that sensitive
Southgate's reasons for not picking Mainoo are fair enough and will benefit the player and Man United more than England.
Foden LW, Trent in midfield.
Sterling had been by far england's best player during Southgate's tenure. Took them to the euros final a year before. Wasn't the right decision, but the rationale was easy to understand. And England missed a penalty to equalize. So it's not like the move cost them the game
You either call RLC or you have too many attackers. Can't do both. He's rubbish defensively
Don't know why people don't think Henderson shouldn't be in the squad. Seriously, the only option people in here are even bringing up as an alternative is an 18 year old with like 15 games under his belt who is good, sure, but hardly pulling up trees either...
Henderson starts for England as it stands. Has to
Now comes the difficult part. Getting the best out of this talented group.
Ah yes I misremembered him starting for some reason!
Yeah, he won’t manage to do that. But the selection is correct at least.
Can't believe Southgate has been England manager for 8 years. That's several years longer than other England managers in my lifetime.
The squad now is probably the best one he's had during his tenure (absences aside). Experienced players still in or around their peak, some important players entering what should be their prime years, and young talents pushing through in virtually every position. The biggest weakness though remains CM. Rice can take over from Henderson, and there's plenty of attacking mids, but England just can't produce quality 8s, good all rounders who can dictate possession.
Would be intrigued to see England play inverted full backs with one DM and two attacking mids. Quite a lot of the squad play that system at club level, and it would mean fitting in two AMs (possibly Bellingham and Foden together centrally, with Saka RW and whoever LW, although Southgate seems adverse to playing Foden centrally if hes not doing it regularly at club level, which is a mistake imo).
The squad now is probably the best one he's had during his tenure (absences aside). Experienced players still in or around their peak, some important players entering what should be their prime years, and young talents pushing through in virtually every position. The biggest weakness though remains CM. Rice can take over from Henderson, and there's plenty of attacking mids, but England just can't produce quality 8s, good all rounders who can dictate possession.
Would be intrigued to see England play inverted full backs with one DM and two attacking mids. Quite a lot of the squad play that system at club level, and it would mean fitting in two AMs (possibly Bellingham and Foden together centrally, with Saka RW and whoever LW, although Southgate seems adverse to playing Foden centrally if hes not doing it regularly at club level, which is a mistake imo).
Mainoo will be in by the summer. He'll have almost doubled his number of games so far
Doubt it unless there are injuries.
Southgate isn't the type to give first call ups at a tournament.
Henderson remains...
Defensive depth is very poor.
Was worse a few years back, think Dier and Coady were both in the Euros squad?
Dunk should've been given more chances in the last 18 months and Konsa really should get some gametime. Was ridiculous in the November friendlies he was the only outfield player not to get on the pitch. Branthwaite will come more into the reckoning after the Euros when Maguire will surely start being phased out.
When I look at the squad it looks pretty certain that Grealish will be the big name omission as he simply isn't playing well these days and not like he's a Southgate favourite anyway so think Bowen and Rashford are pretty much certs and Foden also played at the World cup from the left.
Southgate dosen't rate Serie A one little bit hence Tomori's international career basically over until England gets a new manager.
This is before you even get into the fact Sterling replaced Saka who was arguably the best player on the pitch.
But then this is the same manager who played for penalties in a European championship final in his home team's stadium, then placed all the pressure on his own player's by subbing them on JUST to take a penalty. Even though his legacy as an England player was quite literally missing a penalty in the European championships at Wembley. So the one thing he should have definitely known not to do, was exactly what he did.
He is an incredibly stupid man.
That's a really weak midfield, you can't have Bellingham and Foden.
I would hate to ruin him, there is no need to include him.
Midfield is easily our weakest position, but it usually is. The question is do we have a solution for it?
How would a midfield of:
Rice Mainoo Bellingham stack up against the top countries?
Rice Mainoo Bellingham stack up against the top countries?
As an England fan I am very disappointed not to see Mainoo. Only English player of his profile, and potentially the perfect fit next to Rice. But as a United fan, I would be delighted if he had the summer off and some proper rest. At his stage of development, that is almost as important as all the games he’s played this season.
He’s miles better than Henderson.
He’s miles better than Henderson.
@giorno not only the above, he did that to a bunch of kids. Sheer incompetence that, I believe, broke Sancho and only because Saka has a much stronger constitution, did he get over so well.
Add that to the litany of terrible things he's done, it's bizarre you champion him.
Not really, what's bizarre is how you all go out of your way to *invent* reasons to criticize him. If the kids score their penalties he's a genius for subbing in fresh players - who were the team's best penalty takers in training - and trusting them despite their ages
Blaming Southgate for Sancho's failure at United - right as he's looking like his old self back at Dortmund, I might add - is only the latest "let's literally make up shit to be mad about Southgate" adventure. You don't like the guy, allright. Most of the criticism you direct at him you are quite literally making up. It's not real.
@noodlehair does have a point about subbing Saka in that game, I agree it was a mistake, in hindsight. And still, once again, even after that, England won a freaking penalty. It is not Southgate's fault that Harry Kane, his team's captain, leader and supposedly best player, twice had the opportunity to tilt a game England's way and twice failed to do so. Those are literally the margins that decide WC/Euro winners. Deschamps is a world champion manager because of incredible luck on 2 set pieces. And he is not a double world champion manager because Kolo Muani missed a 1vs1 with Dibu Martinez
Well, yes, but the point is that they didn't score their penalties and he made the wrong decision.
Yes. That happens. And?
Well you seem to be using an alternate timeline that didn't happen as some sort of proof that Southgate didn't make the wrong decision on that. Which is nonsense.
No. I'm saying blaming England's results on him making what turned out to be a wrong decision here and there, when those decisions were made wrong because of actual mistakes by his players, or made irrelevant by the same in the grand scheme of things, is stupid
The manager that won the last world cup subbed out the final's best player, saw his team collapse and throw away a game they'd won, subbed in a player that threw their win away a second time, saw his goalkeeper pull off the greatest save in WC final history to save their arses, then the same "wrong" sub scored the WC winning penalty. So, is he a bad manager, or did he get lucky, did Argentina win thanks to him, or despite him? Come on
We've been back and forth on this before and I don't think either of us is going to change our mind. Bad managers can win despite their ineptitude and good managers can lose despite their ability, but this doesn't mean that all managers that lose are good and losing because of their players. You seem intent on absolving Southgate of any blame when his poor decisions re penalty takers lost that game. Not to mention his spineless tactics in that same game (and, I'd argue, Vs Croatia).
It's not hindsight in the slightest; you should probably check that thread on here as people were asking WTF is he doing before the pens were taken. Before, during and after, he was lambasted for a literal rookie mistake, as you do not do that to kids, and as noodle said: Southgate knows exactly what poor performance in a penalty shoot out can mean in England, and sadly, what multipliers there are for non-white players, as proved to be the case.
Now, race should obviously not be a factor (but it is), but age and way more importantly, the coldness of players is. He sent lambs to the slaughter, essentially. Players who were not even in game state, let alone flow state. Monumentally amateur. Incompetent stuff. There should be many articles like this, questioning awful, pivotal decisions:
"
Alan Shearer questioned the logic of sending on Marcus Rashford and Jadon Sancho for England’s penalty shootout defeat to Italy in the final of Euro 2020.
Rashford and Sancho were brought on the final moments of the Wembley final in order to take penalty kicks for Gareth Southgate’s side, but both players missed their efforts.
Sancho’s kick was saved by Gianluigi Donnarumma while Rashford hit the post, before the Italy goalkeeper then saved Bukayo Saka’s penalty to win the contest for the Azzurri, as England’s suffered yet more heartache in a penalty shootout at a major tournament.
“It’s a big, big ask to put two players on with a minute to go to say, you’re going to go and take a penalty for us,” Shearer said after the match on the BBC.
“You’re under enough pressure anyway as a player but the extra pressure you’re putting on those two individuals when you’ve had no feel of the football, you’re not involved in the game at all and then you’re put in that situation. It’s a big, big ask.
The former England striker added: “When you’ve not played a huge part in the game, then to come on be asked, mentally you’ve got to put yourself right when you’ve not kicked a football and you’ve been sat on your backside for three hours.”
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I don't need to deep dive to know that the gist should be loud and clear in any article referring to that game because it is as obvious as night following day. You simply don't do such things. Even with experienced pros, it's a terrible decision, let alone kids.
There's not a morsel of fabrication or pivoting into fantasy needed when it comes to Southgate, rather, he's a subject people avoid going deep with because it should go without saying. The kind of manager no club wants, but wishes upon their rivals.
I wouldn't worry, Southgate will see first hand how good Mainoo is when he takes his first training session at Carrington
Don't think that's right at all. If they scored their penalties it would just mean he got away with it. No one's ever been called a genius for winning a penalty shootout.
Also, it was a home game, where the opposition were not allowed fans due to covid. What kind of genius ignores this to deploy FA Cup underdog tactics?
Also, leaving tired struggling players on the pitch for 120 minutes effectively clinging on, and then wasting subs right at the end on people to take penalties, is just obviously dumb. If England were controlling the game or looked like they might win, it would have made a bit more sense, but they weren't, and it didn't. The best case scenario is you survive to penalties in spite of your stupidity.
Also, subbing players on just to take penalties, immediately puts 10x the pressure on those players, and completely ignores this as a factor, even though pressure is usually the single biggest factor in a penalty shootout. Amplified by it being a major international final, for England, at Wembley
Sorry but it's the dumbest thing I've seen a manager do in such a high profile game. It's incompetent behaviour....and bringing Sterling on against France, although maybe not quite on the same level of dumb, was worse for me in some ways. He had only flown back into the country that day, was in poor form and had done nothing to justify being in the squad at all. Southgate brings him on instead of and in place of players who were, very very obviously, performing better than him. This was just plain unprofessional as its effectively favouring a mate over doing your job properly.
And, again, if they score he's a genius. Rashford and Sancho were the team's best penalty takers. They felt confident when the manager called them up specifically for the penalties. You're saying their ages should have factored into it - and yes, unfortunately, their skin color as well - but what Southgate did in that situation was trust them
It was a mistake. It happens. Was it stupid? Maybe. Is it something he should take criticism for? Sure.(I'be said many times the final against Italy draws quite a bit of fair criticism, unlike the other games). But should his body of work - and ability to do it well next summer - be judged on that one game?
So maybe I misunderstood you, but in your previous post you blamed Southgate and the missed penalty for Sancho and Rashford's struggles at club level. Hence the "fabrication"
Which is irrelevant since he's not managing a club
Henderson again, fecks sake, he will still be getting called up when he's retired from football.