Yeah he's already done this stupid analysis thread midway through the season and we had the same complaints then: It doesn't actually show availability, just who Ten Hag played. Amad for example has been fit since the new year (so would have had aroudn 40-50% availability) but in reality has played about 3-4% of PL minutes.
End of Season - % PL Minutes Played Analysis - United Worst Hit? Top 10 DONE (Rest of league - Please request individual teams)
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Yeah he's already done this stupid analysis thread midway through the season and we had the same complaints then: It doesn't actually show availability, just who Ten Hag played. Amad for example has been fit since the new year (so would have had aroudn 40-50% availability) but in reality has played about 3-4% of PL minutes.
Stones was fit but unselected. So it makes sense as above.
Im not allowing anyone to waste anything. As has been pointed out already, but I’ll do it again, there are whole threads here on how Guardiola spends money. It’s the subject of a massive PL investigation. To further clarify, as the point doesn’t seem to be resonating yet, I think it’s wild that he can buy a 100m player and have him sitting on the bench. Then again, he gets away with it because they just won a treble and did 4 in a row.
Now we’ve gotten through the whataboutism, we can get back to talking about how OUR manager has brutally wasted a fortune on players not fit for purpose. Or do we need to wade through more examples of other managers, so I can agree they also wasted money first? For clarity, we just had our worst ever PL finish and set all time worst records in a number of critical KPI’s.
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And I then showed the availability analysis using transfermarkt and we still came out worse off…
But we’re possibly forgetting that?
Again if we accept the premise, managers will want to play their best players as much as possible, then this holds value.
If you don’t want to accept the premise and provide a good alternative then I invite you to share your findings in as clear a manner as I have done.
Yes but 50% while far from perfect is a common mark. But his actual availability puts him in the same ball park than the likes of Konaté, Botman, Lascelle, Colwill or Badiashile. Of course it would be great if it was higher but if often not the case, many players and CBs are available between 1500 and 2000 minutes in the league. Ideally it would be between 2000 and 3000 minutes for one of the CB and the rest can rotate.
But what the figures highlight especially if you take into account availability is that we actually had 70% of our first eleven most of the time which is good, the obvious issue is the drop off in quality at left back without both Malacia and Shaw.
Yes, so I take it that ETH was carrying out negotiations? The 55m player was injured most of the season.
Really? you believe our squad was injury free? Mainoo, Casemiro, Martial, Hojlund were all injury free at the start?
Also, he was assured by the medical staff that the LB's are getting fit, but ofcourse that is Ten Hag's fault.
I agree the football and tactics in some games were terrible but also you can put things into context. Twice or three times in the CL we were 2-0 up for us to lose because of poor choices by players, Onana making basic errors.
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Regarding the first paragraph, I do not believe that Varane being on a bench is the same as a Varane truly available (as in ready to perform) hence why availability is a murky and more subjective option for analysis.
I’ve made the presentation of what this thread shows very clear. It’s not an availability or injury analysis (which was the previous criticism) but more a selection analysis. Who was put on the pitch during the season to get points for their club. And one should reasonably assume a manager always wants to play the best option for that point in time subject to reasonable rotations and other issues.
I fail to see how we can view the defence as anything other than completely decimated by injury. Especially when compared to other back lines.
As for the bold how you reaching that conclusion?
Did I say he was in charge in negotiations? No. Did I say he had primary control over recruitment? Yes. This has been widely reported. That matters.
Did I say we didn’t have injuries? No. Did I say we had horrible tactics in virtually every game? Yes, because we did.
You’ve made up a whole bunch of stuff I didn’t even say. This is borderline deranged posting.
Exactly, which is what some of us argue in what seems like circles every time people bring up the injury crisis. You'd think we were trotting out Charlie McNeil, Omari Forson, Harry Amass and co. every week in the league. We obviously miss Martinez/Shaw. Everyone knew this in August when they were hurt.
I just think it's hilariously daft logic to blame a single CB and LB not being available for the entire breakdown of a team in all three phases of the game for 90% of the fecking season without adjustments being made tactically to combat their absences. But it's fine, I'm done trying to "debate" Benito since I'm pretty sure he'd spend days on end "debating" people that have brought up the same issues with his points since February. If we keep Ten Hag and then Mainoo gets hurt or something (god forbid), he can write off his third season too because he didn't have his first choice XI
I've also reserved this spot. It's #50, after all
Did I say he was in charge in negotiations? No. Did I say he had primary control over recruitment? Yes. This has been widely reported. That matters.
Did I say we didn’t have injuries? No. Did I say we had horrible tactics in virtually every game? Yes, because we did.
You’ve made up a whole bunch of stuff I didn’t even say. This is borderline deranged posting.
I mean if a manager has horrible tactics in virtually every game, why aren't we relegated?
Your words Virtually No Tactics but we won the FA cup against a manager that never loses a domestic final.
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Nobody is doing that. I can’t help if you don’t understand that we’ve not been able to rely on a single CB or LB all season let alone our best.
Look Benito, it's a great thread, but why don't you finish it before posting?
The bolded part is based on your figures, 8 out of 11 players have apparently been chosen to play more than 50% of the minutes available.
Robust defence. You’ve got me. You win. Can we be done? I can almost feel the neurological die off happening in real time.
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I’m doing it all on mobile……
Both 'mins availability' and 'mins played' metrics are perhaps not precise to paint an exact picture of the injury situation. One could be preferred over the other basis the position of the player, utilisation of squad, formation, etc. For instance, with 'mins availability' metric, situations where a player although available in a game for 90 mins was fit to play only for an hour. Calculating availability in such a case and fairly assessing the situation is inconvenient.
In our case, from the defense perspective, even with the mins availability metric, percentage wouldn't skew much. If we consider Varane and Martinez to be our starting CB all the time then there were barely any games where either of these were available(fully fit) and were kept on the bench. They were mostly unfit/unavailable. In fact, several times, although available, they weren't fit to play the entire game. So, I reckon mins played for them won't alter much with the availability.
On the other side, the attack/midfield situation is different, and availability metric can give a substantial contrast with mins played since players have been rotated quite often throughout the season in these areas. Moreover, these sections observe relatively frequent substitution of players. Also, several players like Anthony, Rashford, Mctominay, etc. all at times available but have shared their mins played due to form, formation, tactics, etc. Thus, may create a wider rift in these metrics.
Nice work OP. Probably, if you could share mins availability too just for comparison.
In our case, from the defense perspective, even with the mins availability metric, percentage wouldn't skew much. If we consider Varane and Martinez to be our starting CB all the time then there were barely any games where either of these were available(fully fit) and were kept on the bench. They were mostly unfit/unavailable. In fact, several times, although available, they weren't fit to play the entire game. So, I reckon mins played for them won't alter much with the availability.
On the other side, the attack/midfield situation is different, and availability metric can give a substantial contrast with mins played since players have been rotated quite often throughout the season in these areas. Moreover, these sections observe relatively frequent substitution of players. Also, several players like Anthony, Rashford, Mctominay, etc. all at times available but have shared their mins played due to form, formation, tactics, etc. Thus, may create a wider rift in these metrics.
Nice work OP. Probably, if you could share mins availability too just for comparison.
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Ah I see. Yes that’s fair.
I do think when we consider our playing minutes share for each player one of the things that stands out to me was Jonny Evans being our 2nd most played CB. A relegation player from Leicester at 35 years old. Combined with no LB and a variety of defensive partners Im astonished we’ve not conceded more.
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I will do once I finish Newcastle and Chelsea I’ll put the links for each club at the bottom of their corresponding sections.
I really like the idea @BenitoSTARR . Kudos for doing all that work!
Personally I think it makes a lot more sense to simply look at games missed due to injury(or not in squad), rather than minutes played. It gives a much more correct picture of the season in terms of bad luck. Players can be rotated, rested, lose their spot due to poor form or break into the team at the later stage (like Mainoo).
This is how I would do it for each player:
1. Go to Transfermarkt (or whichever site you prefer)
2. Take 38 minus the number of games missed due to injuryor "not in squad".
3. Calculate the percentage.
Do this and we only have 2 red players. And I reckon a few yellow players gets bumped up to green as well.
Actually, using "not in squad" is a bit unfair too. Players who get punished for being late etc should not count as bad luck.
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Using my method Varane gets bumped to yellow (almost green!). Rashford, Højlund and Mainoo gets bumped to green. This is the result (percentages not included, because I'm lazy):
Personally I think it makes a lot more sense to simply look at games missed due to injury
This is how I would do it for each player:
1. Go to Transfermarkt (or whichever site you prefer)
2. Take 38 minus the number of games missed due to injury
3. Calculate the percentage.
Do this and we only have 2 red players. And I reckon a few yellow players gets bumped up to green as well.
Actually, using "not in squad" is a bit unfair too. Players who get punished for being late etc should not count as bad luck.
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Using my method Varane gets bumped to yellow (almost green!). Rashford, Højlund and Mainoo gets bumped to green. This is the result (percentages not included, because I'm lazy):
Onana
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro Mainoo
Garnacho Bruno Rashford
Højlund
Dalot Varane Martinez Shaw
Casemiro Mainoo
Garnacho Bruno Rashford
Højlund
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Evans has been good as have all the CB options, at the exception of Casemiro. Our issues on the field had little to do with the back four while it's not ideal to have injuries, people are relying way too much on it. Our number one issue has been the terrible transition game especially from attack to defense and specifically from the from 6 with the front four being bad at pressing and cutting passing angles while the CMs have generally positioned themselves too high in the final third with neither actually anticipating possession losses.
And that's where your OP is particularly interesting the front six has been our biggest issue and they have been available and it's important to point out that the ideal back four that you chose is the largely the one that has been destroyed on many occasions and I'm not blaming them because again the issue has been higher.
Well done, be interested to see how Utd fair against Chelsea/Newcastle/Brighton.
I can see this thread descending into another manager discussion cesspit though... ETH out, transfers, Antony, Varane, Evans, money spent etc etc etc...
I can see this thread descending into another manager discussion cesspit though... ETH out, transfers, Antony, Varane, Evans, money spent etc etc etc...
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Evans has been good because we had to make tactical adaptations for him/Maguire so that we weren’t playing high. That left a big gap in midfield and resulted in lots of shots from outside the box on goal which people went crazy over. But you cannot say that Evans can perform the optimal role and be a key part of our defence. It’s not normal for him, a 5th choice CB. To start so often. There is no other club that I can see in the league that has had to do this.
Our issues absolutely have to do with the back line. It’s just silly to assume that a team doesn’t operate and build as a unit in the modern game and that significant rotation or lack of options in the first phase isn’t key.
Transitions rely on a team moving in a coherent way to either delay attacks, intercept or aggressively press. I don’t see how we can expect that to happen to a good level with so much rotation.
It also doesn’t help that we have the least experienced front line of those teams above us. Where we should be able to rotate our youth to protect them and show them how it’s done they are very much learning on the job. Garnacho for example is a far superior player in transition that he was at the start of the season but he’s 19. These aren’t experienced pros with all of this pre programmed.
I’m sure on the ocassions we had Varane and Martinez this season we won 4/5 games and lost one 1-0?
I’m not at all interested in discussing the manager that can be for other threads. It’s merely interesting to look at the compositions of our best XIs and squad minutes. Particularly when such young players have played key roles for us and not elsewhere.
From a structural standpoint how is the backline responsible for gaps within the opposition half in transition? Gaps that are between the half way line and the opposing box?
I agree, I can just see the few comments like that creeping in already. It's a good thread, and I'm sure you're putting a lot of time into it.
Will check back when you've updated Chelsea and Newcastle.
You're obsessed with the injury excuses. We've been poor since the league Cup win last season. We've been poor when all our players are available. We've been poor. Period.
Despite this Im now not against Ten Hag staying mainly because I know he is trying hard and hope he has learnt alot this season making him a much better coach for next season. But, he has to be under pressure from the go (any repeat of this season's garbage football and off he goes) and not be allowed to choose players to buy (obviously terrible at it).
BTW. It really wouldn't be wrong to fire him either. It's been abysmal.
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Higher back line, (which typically requires pace) allows this to happen. See Man City on Sunday/ all season with Walker and Arsenal all this season and last.
Alternatively this means that you can commit a full back or two higher up in the press (if they have the recovery pace) to support your wingers or get a fullback to tuck into the centre space that you’ve identified as problematic so that the centre mids can press higher.
Now imagine you only have Dalot as a natural FB fit. How do you get the width for overlaps and secure the middle of the park if your opposite flank has say Lindelof? You can’t reliably do it as it’s not in their nature.
So you end up with this space. Something that we’ve only recently been able to solve by basically playing all the CMs Mainoo, Amrabat and McTominay with no main striker.
That I’m sure you’ll agree isn’t sustainable play over a season. So there’s one way it’s impacted.
Is that you, Martial?
You think that a higher defensive line will help you bridge a gap that is between the opponent's box and the half way line?
I’m surprised you claim that Varane was available for 400 mins he wasn’t playing. What do you know about that? As far as I have understood, there was some undisclosed ‘issue’ following a period where he was accalaimed injured, but we never got to know explicitly what the issue was. There was some speculation later it was related to dizzyness/head injury after effects that Varane has spoken openly about as a chronic issue, but I don’t think it has been openly said one thing or the other that I’m aware. Surprised you could be so sure about that.
What seems controversial in the least, is the claim that Lindelöf and Maguire is adequate back up for Varane and Martinez in the way Ten Hag ideally wants to play. And this comes from one who has taken belters of stick here for insisting that both those players are individually fairly good players. Which altogether is a moot point since they haven’t been available for too many games on CB either.
The most obvious issue at CB this season isn’t even that Extra Wheel Evans has played in the most league games of any CB (23), or that Kambwala and Casemiro both have gotten considerable minutes as 6th and 7th choice, but the mere inconsistency involved in playing with 14 different CB configurations in a season.
You can certainly argue ETH should have dealt with injuries better but to argue that they didn’t happen is literally crazy.
Fine, we can consider that a player that is on the bench isn't available.
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Read what I wrote again. The defensive line can be higher and fullbacks can tuck into the central space that your two 8s vacate. Or you can drop Casemiro and allow Dalot to roam etc.
E.g
______________Edge of GK box______________
Onana
VaranMartinez
_______Halfway line______
Dalot
Garnacho Mainoo Casemiro Shaw
Højlund Bruno Rashford
______Oppo Box______
Onana
VaranMartinez
_______Halfway line______
Dalot
Garnacho Mainoo Casemiro Shaw
Højlund Bruno Rashford
______Oppo Box______
Look at Arsenal and City rest defence as its hard to show and explain verbally.
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Which is for me why % mins played (which avoids all ability to speculate as to fitness etc) is just easier to discuss.
Good post and completely forgotten about Varane’s head issues.
I think the confusion here stems from that you have written a lot of posts in a thread explicitly about injuries by claiming that injuries are not relevant but squad planning, tactics and general manager competency are. I would rather think that those things are relevant in threads about squadplanning, tactics and the various Ten Hag in/out threads, whereas in this thread they are at best asides, while injuries are in fact what is undenibly relevant here.Did I say he was in charge in negotiations? No. Did I say he had primary control over recruitment? Yes. This has been widely reported. That matters.
Did I say we didn’t have injuries? No. Did I say we had horrible tactics in virtually every game? Yes, because we did.
You’ve made up a whole bunch of stuff I didn’t even say. This is borderline deranged posting.
If we are sticking with EtH and he wants us to play this hyper-aggressive front press then it's obvious we need more players like Dalot, Bruno and Garnacho. Never injured and even when they look tired they just seem to keep going.
You realize that you totally repositioned the front six compared to what we usually did, you filled the gaps by dropping Garnacho and one of the fullback. While Varane and Martinez haven't moved, that's where our back 2 is when we have the ball in the final third roughly 5m in.
No. Its a thread to highlight the usual excuse for the poor football i.e injuries. And what is this shouting outside the box shots? Brentford had 85 touches in our box. The league position actually flatters us big time.