How much would Stiller cost just out of interest, also has there been any solid links to him at all
Ederson - Atalanta Midfielder
- Thread starter Berbaclass
- Start date
I read 33.5 release clause, no solid links
Ederson with Mainoo or Fernandez is defensively weak, and with Mainoo also has a passing weakness. Ugarte with Mainoo has a passing weakness. Bruno and ugarte is the most balanced, but you would want to upgrade to get top 4+.
Wharton would balance things out a lot, or a player like him. He still hasn't proven himself for the hype he gets.
Mainoo is a better ball carrier than ederson.
You don't need to be physical to not get bullied around the pitch you could instead be better on the ball which is a weakness of ours. We don't have good passers or many technical players, and he is neither.
I’d possibly agree with that. We should have signed him over Ugarte in my opinion, if it was possible. He’s a more rounded player than him and more suited to playing in a team that wants to control games.
The only thing I would say is that, if Bruno is going to play CM, then he would fulfill that progressive/conductor role, so Ederson may actually be viewed as an upgrade on Ugarte to play with Bruno. I think it’s a better balanced pairing and both have a good engine, along with defensive capabilities.
I’d rather a player in the mould of eriksen. We need someone who’s able to pass between the lines
Neither are good defensively, that's why they picked ugarte.
https://fbref.com/en/players/a9202def/Ederson
1 of 3 potential hit rate. Yummers
I mean, where do the aspirations actually lie? If we’re supposed to be trying for top 4 next season, is this supposed to be the quality that gets us there? One injury to Bruno and then what?
One of the things Amorim has constantly done, is get Bruno/Eriksen in the CM position, whenever we need a goal. Its essentially the problem with Bruno like he stated, we need him both as an #8 and a #10. We lack playmaking ability when Bruno/Eriksen dont play deeper, and you can have Messi, Ronaldo and RvN upfront, but if we can get never get the ball to them, we will never score.
That's our issue.
Which is why having Ederson, to solidify our midfield, wont solve our issues. We need to target CMs, and WBs who can progress the ball, either with ball carrying or passing. Ederson would simply be a Ugarte upgrade, and upgrading him after spunking 60M on him last summer, would be a typical United move.
That's our issue.
Which is why having Ederson, to solidify our midfield, wont solve our issues. We need to target CMs, and WBs who can progress the ball, either with ball carrying or passing. Ederson would simply be a Ugarte upgrade, and upgrading him after spunking 60M on him last summer, would be a typical United move.
I see how one of them might fit that description.
This is much better than the ‘no technical ability / no athleticism’ stuff the other day.
I feel, with all footballers, it’s better to recognise what they are and utilise their strengths. You can’t utilise what they aren’t, or wish they were something else.
Team building is about trying to get what you need most, at a particular time, with the resources you have .
I guess where I’m slightly different from some is that I trust those making football decisions in the club to be better positioned to do so than I am, rather than rail against permutations to which I am not party. I am also perfectly comfortable with the fact that not every decision will prove to perfect.
That’s not right or wrong, but it does help me enjoy watching what I see in front of me, for better or worse, as opposed to constantly railing against perceived failings of my Club or Team.
Wharton over this guy for me. Will cost 15-20m more sure, but I think he’s the closest thing this country has produced to Carrick since Carrick. Has a good balance of energy, defensive discipline, aggression all combined with the composure and technique you’d expect from a Spanish CM.
I would try with a cheaper solution like Johbny Cardoso of Betis (as part of a swap deal with Antony). Would probably cost half the amount of Ederson and much better at passing.
We have no complete midfielders and he is pretty much it. Not elite in anything, but neither are Bruno G or Tonali. Éderson's stats are actually better in almost everything than Tonali's in Serie A before his move to Newcastle, and Tonali turned out decent. It would be nice to have a midfield metronome, but first, we need actual physicality, energy and athleticism in midfield, and Éderson provides that, in addition to being a decent progressive passer, something Ugarte isn't. With two number 10s and wing backs, Bruno can drop deep to collect the ball to progress the ball, we don't really need him to play next to Ugarte, especially because we're almost always losing the midfield battles in terms of physicality. Dominated by mediocre teams because of it isn't acceptable, and with Éderson coming in, I think we would be much better in midfield. If you have seen him play, you'll know he has no problems translating the strength and physicality bit to Premier League, and he has already shown he can do it against Liverpool in the CL. He is ridiculously strong.
Tonali had a lot of buzz around him before he left Italy and was expected to go on to bigger things. He was also making waves at a younger age. The biggest surprise was him leaving Italy in the first place, not his performance level since doing so.
Would you say Ederson is as highly thought of and touted?
The flipside is that there's quite a quite a high chance Cunha's signing is the key step in addressing that issue next season, as him becoming a certain starter at #10 may see Bruno shift to primarily playing in CM.
If that's the plan, then our needs from a CM signing shift. Because rather than our primary need being a CM to fill that Bruno/Eriksen gap in ball progression, it instead becomes a CM who can complement/improve/add depth to the first choice Bruno/Ugarte midfield pairing.
If the new CM is going to regularly play alongside Bruno rather than instead of him, the focus needs to skew more towards physicality and defensive output than it would otherwise. But while also offering more progression than Ugarte, who he would likely also be paired with quite regularly. Which to my mind leads us much closer to an Ederson-profile player.
Interesting that his defensive stats were much better in the previous seasons. His passing stats have also been steadily improving over the last couple of seasons. We would need someone who watches him regularly to explain that change and whether it's due to a change in his role or him developing his game and expressing himself more.
Yes, I remember. If I remember correctly, he was initially touted as the next Pirlo in his younger days, which is why I think he carried the reputation all the way since he was 18, despite not actually being close in playing style or performance. I seem to remember Milan fans saying his level dropped a bit and he didn't live up to the hype, but if you ask them now, they love him and would love to have him back. I think he was pushed out from the club, and allegedly broke down in tears when he found out they were selling him. He has stepped up massively for Newcastle from what I have seen this season.
As for Éderson, I don't think he is as highly thought of, but I do think he could be as good or better, and his skillset could see him flourish in Premier League, in my opinion. I really think it is about time we get a complete box-to-box midfielder that teams like Newcastle, Forest and Villa are thriving with. Someone that can do it all to a very high level, but not necessarily elite. We don't have anyone close to that in our midfield, and I really think we should have gone with him instead of Ugarte, who is only really good defensively, doesn't offer much else, and even seems to be struggling with his stamina. Éderson is a decent carrier and dribbler, technique and touch is good, looking to progress the ball forward instead of always opting for the safe option, exceptional work horse that provides proper steel and tenacity in midfield, and a bit of a goal threat too. My only real "worry" is his lack of passing range, but to me, he is definitely one that will improve us massively in midfield and lift the level of the team in general by contributing greatly to winning midfield battles. I'd probably choose a metronome midfielder if there was a really good one available, but those players are getting more and more rare, and the quality is also going down, when the likes of Angelo Stiller are the best ones available.
Ederson seems a good all rounder but we would be reliant on his athleticism at Serie A level translating to the EPL. It's a big ask and at that price, we don't want to make a mistake. I didn't like the Ugarte deal at the time considering his limitations. Amorim also mentioned that Morten Hjulmand was his ideal profile of a CM so I'm sure even he would upgrade on Ugarte. It was very shortsighted of us not to go for Amadou Onana considering the similar prices. If we had gone for Ederson instead of Ugarte, I think we would also be in a better position to find an ideal partner for him. At a cheaper price, another good B2B player would be Man Utd Kone. Roma has a 18m option to buy him, so if we offered 30m once they activate it, they would likely agree as they make a decent profit on him. I'm more confident on Kone's physicality translating to the EPL as he's also shown it in the Bundesliga whereas Ederson has only played in Italy.
Getting Cunha probably means Bruno would mostly play deeper next season, so getting a midfielder like Ederson would be the better choice IMO.
Can he get the ball from defence turn under pressure and play forwards? I think that’s what we should be looking for from any new midfielders. Feels like forever since we had someone like that.
What’s his ball progression abilities like? Can he thread them through to the strikers? That’s what we are missing alongside more energy and aggression.
He'll likely be going for close to £100m when the time comes.
Ugarte is too far in the other direction. He’s not up to scratch on the ball, he’s not great under pressure, and he’s poor when receiving the ball when facing our own goal. I also think Ugarte is better at winning the ball when pressing, rather than actually shielding the defence. He’s easily bypassed at times and if he is took on, his powers of recovery aren’t there.
Mainoo did that really well in his first few months last season but for some reason he’s been pushed further up the pitch.
I think everyone would agree on him but we’re not paying the sort of fee that would be required I don’t think. He’s going to be £70m+ I reckon, and I’m sure the club will be looking to find a player with similar potential that is cheaper.
His passing is brilliant, sometimes he picks out passes that Scholes would be proud of. He’s going to be expensive though and I think there will be a queue of teams for him when he’s ready to move.
Which is why I think Ederson would make no sense when we have Ugarte. They’re different sort of players who have differing strengths but both are box to box — Ugarte isn’t a shielder/screener: he’s a front foot defensive midfielder who wants to win the ball high up the field but doesn’t really do much on it.
Ederson has similar(ish) traits to be up and down whilst being a better on the ball (but still not up to par).
Would be a waste of assets to have two central midfielders for around £100m~ who aren’t really specialised.
To me it depends who we’re pairing him with. If Bruno is going to play deeper then it changes the complex of the midfield and what we need. I also think this system lessens the need for a strict screening midfielder, and will need more energy, pace, recovery and obviously ability on the ball too. From the bits I’ve seen of Ederson, he’s a strong all rounder and I think he’s far more mobile than Ugarte, making him have better ability to recover situations. If Amorim wants to replicate his Sporting team, then he’ll want to play a very high line and therefore needs more athleticism in the team.
I think Ugarte is an issue no matter who we get, the more I think about it. So many moves break down or slow down because of his abilities on the ball.
Thats my take as well - a screening midfielder isn't necessarily a need for every system, it really depends on how the actual plan is.
I don't know about that though. I mean, I think it would be a huge mistake to take this years way of playing and try to use it as some sort of preset. I mean, no doubt, Ugarte was never known to be a great ball playing midfielder but at the same time, who in our teams looks at the right place in that aspect? Amad, Mainoo for the first 55-60 minutes but thats about it. If the team moves as a unit, defending looks different. If we play a more controlled way, it wouldn't be an issue that counter attacks break down because Ugartes doesn't have this or that technical level. In sincerely hope, we are attempting to play a dominant way and aren't trying to tinker around adding small pieces to make the shit show work, that brought us the results and performances of the current season (to make sure, that doesn't sound too damning - I attribute a large part of that to losing players for multiple reasons).
Barring Pedulla, are there any concrete, credible links?
Yeah agree.
Two ball players with brains in front of the back three and you've a great base.
Get the athleticism/speed from the 10's and wingbacks.
It's so straightforward this. Certain attributes in certain positions.
I really think you could put Wharton and Garner in front of the three CB's and from there you could play.
I think Amorim recognises the need for a ball player. He doesn't seem 100% about Ugarte either given the number of times he subs him off or doesn't start him.
I agree with this. I've been less than impressed with him so far.
If Amorim doesn't see Mainoo as a CM then United need to get someone in this summer as the depth in CM is just as weak as CF.
CM
Bruno
Ugarte
???
*Not including Eriksen, Casemiro or the academy kids.
CM
Bruno
Ugarte
???
*Not including Eriksen, Casemiro or the academy kids.
Agreed, he's a bit of a stop gap player who does a job, but isn't what we want longer term
He and Bruno are one of the easiest pairings to run past.
When amad played number 10 on the right, it was very noticeable that he didn't get the ball much because no one behind him found him.
I don’t feel I need to talk about Ugarte in detail in Ederson thread. I was speechless that I had to provide more detail to you about Ugarte with no technical ability / no athleticism in Ederson thread. I expect people should understand what I meant that I didn’t think I need to elaborate it more because the focus in this thread should be more about Ederson but I guess everyone are different. I already had what I needed from you regarding your view on Ugarte, that’s enough for me to end the Ugarte discussion in this thread.
I would prefer Manù Kone. Similar quality player but much cheaper and a bit taller. Very good CM.
I haven’t watch Ederson enough to judge his athleticism and what is his level as all round midfielder so I agree with you that the data doesn’t provide any evidence that he can come to a more athletic league.
Honestly, I wouldn’t trust the numbers to judge player’s athleticism profile either because Serie A is not a league where you see lot of physicality battle. Players with low number can still meet the PL profile. I think the only way to know is by actually watching him lot of games.
If I want to take good example of midfielder who is not world class but has the athleticism and an all round midfielder to play for top team in PL would be Partey. If Ederson is as athletic as Partey and his ability on the ball is on par to Partey then Ederson meets the profile.
Based on the game I watched him in Europa league final last season, I feel that Ederson has the profile to play in PL because he looks very athleticism and he looks like an all round midfielder. But that was one game playing against bundesliga team.
Partey is a better passer and better defensively.