A good listen
Doping In Sport
- Thread starter sullydnl
- Start date
A good listen
I honestly don't consider cycling, running all that athletics stuff to be a real sport.
Ultimately almost every person with right training and help from pharma or alternatively good genetics can win these things. I remember there is this woman, from South Africa i think, Olympian champion in running, she has a disease when a woman body produces increased amount of male hormone. That's real disease, it's genetic, many women have it. But because of that she is head and shoulders above everybody else. Even if situation is not that extreme, still, everybody knows why Kenyans are great marathon runners.
Ultimately almost every person with right training and help from pharma or alternatively good genetics can win these things. I remember there is this woman, from South Africa i think, Olympian champion in running, she has a disease when a woman body produces increased amount of male hormone. That's real disease, it's genetic, many women have it. But because of that she is head and shoulders above everybody else. Even if situation is not that extreme, still, everybody knows why Kenyans are great marathon runners.
If you're going down that road, no activity should ever be considered a real sport. After all, isn't it thanks to genetics coupled with the right training that Messi is so good at football? Or Ronnie so good at Snooker?
No one picking up on the revelations made by The Daily Telegraph about the coach and the agent of Justin Gatlin?
Probably not too surprised. I mean look at his trend-busting career trajectory:
And Dennis Mitchell's got previous too, somehow getting off with that beer and shagging excuse to justify elevated testosterone levels.
I was going to say, there is NO way a sportsman of any kind is getting by on the bog standard “2 puffs four times a day”.
On a saturday i would be 2puffs before kick off, probably a puff at some point in the first half, 2 at half time, and then depending on how much i put in maybe a couple more in the second half.
I dont take maintenance doses now, but do take it before i go to the gym, and have to take it more during the summer, my Doctor has always said to just take it as you need it.
I was was smashing out good knows how many miles a day on a pushbike, i would be mainlining that shit.
Some days when i was really bad i was on it every hour, you certianly dont feel like breaking any world records on those days.
That adds up to 7 puffs.
Froome took at least 30*. It's harder to use an inhaler correctly when already breathing heavy like he would be on a bike, which means less of the dosage actually goes into the body, so he most likely had to do more puffs than those 30 to get to the levels he was at. There's also metabolism to account for, which means he likely had much higher levels of salbutamol in his body at some earlier point of the day. There's a reason the limit is at 1000ng/ml. It's so that it's borderline impossible to trip the test without going WAY above the dosage limitations set by WADA and that's why, in endurance sports where every person and their dog seem to be asthmatics with an inhaler dependency, we rarely hear of anyone going above the limit for the drug, and why those that do get slapped with suspensions.
Froome went over the limit by 100%. No excuses for that.
* If he even used an inhaler. With the concentration of salbutamol that Froome had it's much more likely that he took a salbutamol tablet. Salbutamol in tablet form is banned outright from sports.
Yes thats in one amateur game of football, excluding all other intake for the day.
Youve also completely ignored the rest of the post.
As someone who has to use it, on a heavy day i could easily hit twenty puffs a day without exercise, as i said at end of the post “i could be on it every hour”.
And you've completely ignored the part about the dosage limitations being set where they are for a reason. Anyone that has to exceed them, let alone take twice the absolute maximum amount allowed, has no business taking part in one of the hardest bike races in the world. They should probably be in hospital. Froome on the other hand struggled so little that he even put significant time into his closest competitor on the day in question.
Also, do you use a 50µg inhaler or a 100µg? Froome would have had to use the 100µg inhaler to get the values in his sample. If you use a 50µg inhaler it goes from taking at least 4-5 times as much as you to 8-10 times as much as you. And in this whole argument we're assuming his asthma is even as bad as yours. It certainly wasn't bad enough for him to bother to mentioning it in his autobiography. The public didn't actually get to know about his asthma until he was spotted puffing on an inhaler during a race in 2014, in his 7th season as a cycling pro.
If endurance sports were impossible for asthmatics to do without exceeding the limitations set in place from time to time we would:
1) See similar "adverse analytical findings" in every other race and it wouldn't be seen as such a big deal
and/or
2) See athletes abandoning races all over the place because they had taken the maximum allowed dosage and still struggled to breathe.
To adress the first point: This AAF is a big deal, as proven by the bans athletes have had to serve after delivering samples with far lower concentrations than that of Froome. To the second point: Athletes pretty much never abandon races because of their asthma, because the medication works well within the dosage limitations set in place. Medically it makes no sense that Froome needed as much medication as his sample has proved he took.
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There is no genetics or pharma involvement in snooker. That's ridiculous.
As for football, what makes it a great sport is than anybody can succeed in it and genetics or your physical qualities don't always play part. There are powerful players with great physical attributes like Pogba or Viera. But are they any better than players who are not only smaller, but also does not possess such a speed as Pirlo or Xavi? Clearly not. In football whether you are small, tall, speedy or not it's still possible to be a top player, because everybody plays differently and everybody have different strength. That is what makes it a real sport. However you are built, it is possible for you to reach the top via your unique route. That is also why doping is not much of a problem there.
Doping can help with much faster recovery from the grind over the season as well as quicken recovery rates from injury. It is a major problem in soccer if it's involved.
I actually think that any recovery-oriented doping should be permitted. For example american leagues such as NHL, NBA have not ratified WADA codex and do not follow these rules. Why? Because they are professional leagues, they make money. Of course they don't want to treat injuries for months instead of weeks. That's just madness.
Of course there's genetics involved. Literally any sort of talent is partially determined by the genetic makeup of a person. I just used that as an example to illustrate how silly your argument was that cycling should not be considered a real sport because anyone with the right genetics and training could win there. I didn't even mention pharma in my post.
I’m all for it off there’s no Long term repercussions for this.
Drugs have been used in snooker to gain an advantage.
Beta blockers
These drugs can have a range of effects (some of which have not been proven). Known as beta blockers or beta antagonists they work by blocking the body’s receptors for adrenalin. They are used to treat a range of ailments associated with anxiety and tension, such as high blood pressure, angina, irregular heart beat, migraines, tremors, alcohol withdrawal and glaucoma.
Other drugs known as beta agonists have the opposite effect, a common beta agonist is the drug used in asthma inhalers (salbutamol) which acts to relax the airways, allowing the user to breathe more easily.
Beta blockers have been used by athletes in sports where a steady hand and eye are needed such as snooker, archery, darts and rifle shooting. In September 2006 Tiger Woods called for drug testing in golf as there were so many rumours of players taking beta blockers.
Some of the major side effects include; nausea, head aches, dizziness, muscle cramps or rapid heart flutters.
Beta-blockers?
I actually doubt there is any serious scientific data that would suggest that they can actually give serious competitive advantage. I'm sure WADA banned them alright, but that's just a proof of ultimately broken system.
I am a biochesmist myself, and i can tell you with a complete confidence, that if anybody would actually conduct a double blind study of snooker (or gold, shooting) players performing with beta blockers and without, they would actually conclude that any possible enhancing is due to the placebo effect.
That's a BS. People thought that, i don't know, maybe like 50 years ago. When it was considered that almost every talent or a trait of a person is genetically predisposed. Now there is clear understanding that genetic makeup is not as important.
And in football it's pretty much evident. Just look at marathon winners, they are pretty much genetically homogeneous. Also in terms of body type, height etc. Because it's vital to respond well to anaerobic stress, so if you're say from Netherlands and you are 6'3, no amount of training will put you even close to runners from Kenya of Ethiopia. Biologically it's not doable.
Then we look at football. And we have Messi, Ronaldo, Salah, Pogba, Hazard, Neymar, Modric, Pirlo, Ramos etc. So genetic diversity here is pretty vast. Some players are genetically predisposed to be fast and have great stamina (Salah for example), but there are a lot of great players who were not fast, like Xavi or Pirlo or many others. Which means that in football your genetic makeup does not matter at all. Well as long as you are generally healthy of course. Whatever your physique or other attributes you can still be a top player.
Of course you could argue that all of them of have different undefined genetic advantages. But that would effectively mean that almost any (reasonably healthy) person on Earth could possess latent ability to be a great player that just was not realized. Me or you as well. And that is not different to genetics not having any role at all.
Paul Kimmage sums up all the fog around Team Sky at the moment.
Thanks for posting, I enjoyed that. Kimmage will go down on the right side of history on this one.
Paul Kimmage is brilliant, a shining beacon in a murky world. He’s got some interesting opinions about Pep Guardiola for those interested in looking that up.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2...-and-team-sky-accused-drugs-in-damning-report
Brilliant. Team Sky wankers.
Brilliant. Team Sky wankers.
I saw this on Sky news , pretty damming for Team Sky, Wiggins dirty !!! would be a massive shock if true.
I dont really follow cycling that much to be honest, always thought it was a dirty sport.
Best approach. No way did Team Sky ride into cycling and start gobbling up Tour after Tour simply because they revolutionized preparation, which is the image they were keen to give off upon starting.
They were a new, sleek team that more than likely engaged in the same nefarious crap as the rest.
Cheats. The only consolation being that all teams do the same.
This is a nothing story. They crossed "an ethical line" but there are no ethics in cycling anymore, every team walks the line on what's allowed and what not.
It was not against WADA regulations apparently, and it's about something every GP in Belgium prescribes for something as little as a serious cold.
Sky has done some shady shit over the last five years, undoubtedly so and probably not always on the clean side of the line, but this is a minor thing and every team with a little ambition has done the same with a 99% probability.
It was not against WADA regulations apparently, and it's about something every GP in Belgium prescribes for something as little as a serious cold.
Sky has done some shady shit over the last five years, undoubtedly so and probably not always on the clean side of the line, but this is a minor thing and every team with a little ambition has done the same with a 99% probability.
Yeah that's bullshit of course and makes them serious hypocrites. They're the new US Postal of the peloton imo, they apply the same tactics as almost everyone else but just do it better and more efficiently. But I want them to get caught for something bigger and way more organized than this.
'The most transparent team in sports™.'
Least shocking news ever. If you don’t believe that almost every top sports team or competitors aren’t breaking ethical boundaries then I dunno what to tell you.
This. "Win at all costs" has been the motto in cycling since forever.
Predictable.
I'm also shocked to learn that a man who has dominated long distance running for several years, missed drugs tests, and been coached by a man who allegedly doped his training partner is named again in relation to doping violations, but I'm sure the media are going to cover their ears and pretend like he's squeaky clean again.
I'm also shocked to learn that a man who has dominated long distance running for several years, missed drugs tests, and been coached by a man who allegedly doped his training partner is named again in relation to doping violations, but I'm sure the media are going to cover their ears and pretend like he's squeaky clean again.
I've always found it hard to believe that a man with asthma could also be the top performer in long-distance road cycling. I can't think of another sport which would take more of a toll on someone's body.
Once again cycling has shattered my world view. I mean, who would've guessed that the team that has been dominating one of the dirtiest sports is... dirty? Next they'll tell me that Froome is one the sauce. What a shocking revelation that would be.
Naive to think doping doesn't go on in cycling. Whether what they did was clever or not, it's still cheating.
What's going on with Froome's salbutamol case? The positive was 6 months ago and the new season is upon us again - how long does it take to resolve?
I’m sure I read that due to the conditions of some sports, the occurrence of asthma is much higher that the general population but in many cases it is legitimate. I’m sure skiing is another sport with high rates of asthma.
Doping happens in every sport as far as I'm concerned. Never surprised when these reports come out now...
Just let them all juice up and we can see what the human limits are!
Just let them all juice up and we can see what the human limits are!
Why do people still get shocked and upset when athletes take drugs?
Who is shocked?
Everyone in here (apart from a few delusional Team Sky apologists) are just glad Team Sky are being seen for what they really are: cheats like the majority of the dominating teams throughout cycling's history.
That's very interesting, I had no idea about that.
Who is shocked?
Everyone in here (apart from a few delusional Team Sky apologists) are just glad Team Sky are being seen for what they really are: cheats like the majority of the dominating teams throughout cycling's history.
The only difference so far is they haven’t actually broken any doping rules, so you can’t really call them cheats. I mean I’m sure they have cheated but that’s not what’s been revealed here.
How long until the Froome case gets a verdict or something?