Donny Van De Beek | he stays!

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AngeloHenriquez said:
I'm an accountant (Not finished studying CIMA yet but enough to be more than competent with straight line depreciation/ ammortisation and it's a fairly simple calculation).

Wages hit P&L monthly as a direct expense so don't touch the balance sheet so we only ammortize the transfer fee over length of contract typically.

€39m in 2020 over 5 years and he's been here for 3 years so carrying value on a straight line balance with zero expected value after length of useful life means he has €15.6m carrying value which means we can only show a profit if we sell him for more than that.

Note: This doesn't take into account currency fluctuation at time of deal being made
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Thank you, that's as clear as this has been explained here so far.
That's the same issue than Maguire (going the guesstimates) : Their contract theorical remaining value on the books is too high because the club severely overspent on them and the club can't find buyers at that price and would be taking a hit discounting them.

Next year Maguire remaining value should be 14m£ approx (if amortized over 6 years as most people presuppose) and DVB 8m£ approx, if I understand correctly. That's a lot closer to what I expect you could get for them, in my opinion.
 
Mickeza said:
He’s done absolutely sod all for 3 years, is coming back from a serious injury and is on high wages. I’d be amazed if we can sell him at all let alone get 15m. It’ll be a loan with an option that they inevitably won’t take up when he doesn’t start for them either ala Everton.
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I suspect that analysis is correct.

According to Football Manager, Sociedad paid David Silva £4.5m per year, their next highest earner £2.5m, another slightly below that, then a few players about £2m, with others under £1.5m and several below £1m. So unless they see Donny being their best performer, that looks to me like a difficult permanent transfer to arrange.
 
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marktan said:
This logic only applies to showing a profit on the books / FFP.

Obviously £10m in the bank is better than having a player here for another 2 years who'll give us no value. Yes on the books it'll show up as a loss, but that money we paid for VDB is gone regardless of what we do, so £10m would be a great recoup for a player that's shown nothing here.
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That's true but there is a seperate issue in that we use the value of the carrying value of the "Assets" to put as collateral against the loans/finance options which means we need to hold a certain value on the balance sheet which is one of the reasons we struggle to sell (Combined with the silly wages we hand out to anyone) but you are correct in that the fee we paid for VDB is committed already but we do have to be mindful to the profit with us being up against it with FFP (Which there are lots of creative ways out of but that's a discussion for another place).

Plastic Evra said:
Thank you, that's as clear as this has been explained here so far.
That's the same issue than Maguire (going the guesstimates) : Their contract theorical remaining value on the books is too high because the club severely overspent on them and the club can't find buyers at that price and would be taking a hit discounting them.

Next year Maguire remaining value should be 14m£ approx (if amortized over 6 years as most people presuppose) and DVB 8m£ approx, if I understand correctly. That's a lot closer to what I expect you could get for them, in my opinion.
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That's correct and I mentioned about the collaterol point above but another issue is that players we sell will typically be on lower wages at their next club so we may have to in some instances pay the differential of the remaining higher wage we owe them and the new wage they will be getting for the duration remaining on the contract we have with them in a lump sum which again impacts what price we can sell at.
 
Sarni said:
How did you actually come to that conclusion? :lol:

That is flawed understanding of how accounts work.
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It’s worked out as a loss for FFP. What’s hard to work out? It’s pretty simple really.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
That's true but there is a seperate issue in that we use the value of the carrying value of the "Assets" to put as collateral against the loans/finance options which means we need to hold a certain value on the balance sheet which is one of the reasons we struggle to sell (Combined with the silly wages we hand out to anyone) but you are correct in that the fee we paid for VDB is committed already but we do have to be mindful to the profit with us being up against it with FFP (Which there are lots of creative ways out of but that's a discussion for another place).



That's correct and I mentioned about the collaterol point above but another issue is that players we sell will typically be on lower wages at their next club so we may have to in some instances pay the differential of the remaining higher wage we owe them and the new wage they will be getting for the duration remaining on the contract we have with them in a lump sum which again impacts what price we can sell at.
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Nice insight to how football works for those who aren’t in the game. Players wages can and are normally settled though at a lower upfront fee to move things along. Obviously the player has to accept that. Quickest example I can think of is De Jong last summer. Barca tried to agree a settlement on what not only what he was owed but what he would be owed in the future.
 
Mainoldo said:
Nice insight to how football works for those who aren’t in the game. Players wages can and are normally settled though at a lower upfront fee to move things along. Obviously the player has to accept that. Quickest example I can think of is De Jong last summer. Barca tried to agree a settlement on what not only what he was owed but what he would be owed in the future.
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Very true, they accept a discount as they want the move which may be the case in VDBs case as he genuinely does seem to want the move, we may not even have to pay him anything if he get a signing bonus with new club, my concern is with Maguire and the amount we would need to pay him as I imagine his next contract somewhere else will drop dramatically as he has 2 years on £200k and really he's an £80k a week player.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
I'm an accountant (Not finished studying CIMA yet but enough to be more than competent with straight line depreciation/ ammortisation and it's a fairly simple calculation).

Wages hit P&L monthly as a direct expense so don't touch the balance sheet so we only ammortize the transfer fee over length of contract typically.

€39m in 2020 over 5 years and he's been here for 3 years so carrying value on a straight line balance with zero expected value after length of useful life means he has €15.6m carrying value which means we can only show a profit if we sell him for more than that.

Note: This doesn't take into account currency fluctuation at time of deal being made
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I am totally aware how amortization works and what his residual value currently is, thanks, I've worked in finance for the last 10 years.

From P&L point of view he's going to cost us approx. €14m per year for the next 2 seasons, versus one off write off of close to €16m and offsetting revenue of whatever we can get for him. It makes zero financial sense to keep him and pay him outstanding €12m of his contract, rather than sell him and pocket whatever Sociedad or another team are prepared to pay. It's a terrible move from P&L standpoint and an even worse one from cash flow perspective, regardless of FFP treatment.

Financially it literally makes more sense to let him walk for free and avoid paying his salary.
 
Sarni said:
I am totally aware how amortization works and what his residual value currently is, thanks, I've worked in finance for the last 10 years.

From P&L point of view he's going to cost us approx. €14m per year for the next 2 seasons, versus one off write off of close to €16m and offsetting revenue of whatever we can get for him. It makes zero financial sense to keep him and pay him outstanding €12m of his contract, rather than sell him. Financially it literally makes more sense to let him walk for free and avoid paying his salary.
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Don't disagree with that at all but the P&L cost has nothing to do with carrying value of an asset which is the post you were directly responding to who spoke about the residual value on the balance sheet.

I do agree with you from a cashflow POV, I would sell for less as I don't think the wages we pay him warrant the time he will get on the pitch but you'll notice further up I mentioned about his value being secured against loans which is why the Glazers won't do it but like you, I absolutely would.

Also, you seem to have taken offense and I meant none so apologies if that was the case, in my experience most people don't really understand finance so I was trying to be helpful, not condescending.
 
AngeloHenriquez said:
Don't disagree with that at all but the P&L cost has nothing to do with carrying value of an asset which is the post you were directly responding to who spoke about the residual value on the balance sheet.

I do agree with you from a cashflow POV, I would sell for less as I don't think the wages we pay him warrant the time he will get on the pitch but you'll notice further up I mentioned about his value being secured against loans which is why the Glazers won't do it but like you, I absolutely would.

Also, you seem to have taken offense and I meant none so apologies if that was the case, in my experience most people don't really understand finance so I was trying to be helpful, not condescending.
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I'd honestly be surprised if his value has any significant bearing on those loans, though I obviously do not know the conditions of any of the agreements they have. On the other hand, it will slightly improve our financial projections for the following two years which can be helpful for any future loans (albeit again it's a rather small impact).

And no offense taken, no worries.
 
Sarni said:
I'd honestly be surprised if his value has any significant bearing on those loans, though I obviously do not know the conditions of any of the agreements they have. On the other hand, it will slightly improve our financial projections for the following two years which can be helpful for any future loans (albeit again it's a rather small impact).

And no offense taken, no worries.
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Interesting!! We are having a finance off. :lol:

However aren’t you talking about operational costs and therefore in the grand scheme of things makes no difference to the club as the loss is accounted for already and by the reports we are running operationally a lot better than a couple years ago.

What I was referring to is the loss the club has to actually account for by selling him for cheap. It doesn’t make sense for them to do that.
 
Mainoldo said:
Interesting!! We are having a finance off. :lol:

However aren’t you talking about operational costs and therefore in the grand scheme of things makes no difference to the club as the loss is accounted for already and by the reports we are running operationally a lot better than a couple years ago.

What I was referring to is the loss the club has to actually account for by selling him for cheap. It doesn’t make sense for them to do that.
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I'd be interested to see where we are with salaries right now, as our bill was quite bloated in the past and could use a £5.5m a year relief. We got rid of Ronaldo, De Gea and Telles, all of whom were high earners, but we should probably shed as much as we can as it'll help with FFP going forward. That's why I'd be fine taking a larger hit on players like Maguire or VDB, or even Sancho if we don't intend to give him an important role and can find a buyer, even if it's a short term hit from FFP point of view. I don't even truly believe in UEFA's ability to punish big clubs for breach of FFP, it's a different case if we were Partizan Belgrade or Slovan Bratislava.
 
He's been absolute shite here.

Doesn't seem to be good at anything, he has to be one of the worst signings we've ever made. Getting 15m for him would be a miracle.
 
Hi!
I´m a Real Sociedad fan. I entered here to see how you view the possible exit of VDB from MU. Real Sociedad is very VERY VEEEEERY cautious with expending since the problems that put the club in risk a decade ago. We have specialized in the last years in improving players that had bad experiences in bigger clubs. I call ourselves Rehab Sociedad.

I don´t see Real Sociedad spending more than 12 m€ on VDB... and that if MU insists on a sale and not a loan with sale option.

And if VDB have a 12m salary like I read here... he would have half that at Real Sociedad... at best.
 
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elvelux said:
Hi!
I´m a Real Sociedad fan. I entered here to see how you view the possible exit of VDB from MU. Real Sociedad is very VERY VEEEEERY cautious with expending since the problems that put the club in risk a decade ago. We have specialized in the last years in improving players that had bad experiences in bigger clubs. I call ourselves Rehab Sociedad.

I don´t see Real Sociedad spending more than 12 m€ on VDB... and that if MU insists on a sale and not a loan with sale option.

And if VDB have a 12m salary like I read here... he would have half that at Real Sociedad... at best.
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To be honest we've barely seen him play!

There is definitely a player in there, doesn't suit us at all but I wouldn't say he's been poor for us. Just kind of been there.

He is a midfielder who's played for the Netherlands a bunch and done well in impressive Champions League runs. You'd be hoping he could rediscover that.
 
OverratedOpinion said:
He is a midfielder who's played for the Netherlands a bunch and done well in impressive Champions League runs. You'd be hoping he could rediscover that.
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I´m sure that´s the idea in Real Sociedad. We have specialized in that in the last years. Odegaard, Isak, Merino, Kubo and others came to Real Sociedad in a bad moment, far from their best, and improved very fast. Isak and Odegaard got a Premier contract, Merino and Kubo continue in Real Sociedad but with much more value and are turning down great offers.

On the other hand, VDB could have a problem with the fans here... people could see him as a replacement for David Silva who just retired, and he clearly can´t be that!
 
elvelux said:
I´m sure that´s the idea in Real Sociedad. We have specialized in that in the last years. Odegaard, Isak, Merino, Kubo and others came to Real Sociedad in a bad moment, far from their best, and improved very fast. Isak and Odegaard got a Premier contract, Merino and Kubo continue in Real Sociedad but with much more value and are turning down great offers.

On the other hand, VDB could have a problem with the fans here... people could see him as a replacement for David Silva who just retired, and he clearly can´t be that!
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Yeah I won't lie and say I've watched a lot of Silva since he left City but I can't think of 2 more different players who play in a similar position.
 
elvelux said:
I´m sure that´s the idea in Real Sociedad. We have specialized in that in the last years. Odegaard, Isak, Merino, Kubo and others came to Real Sociedad in a bad moment, far from their best, and improved very fast. Isak and Odegaard got a Premier contract, Merino and Kubo continue in Real Sociedad but with much more value and are turning down great offers.

On the other hand, VDB could have a problem with the fans here... people could see him as a replacement for David Silva who just retired, and he clearly can´t be that!
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I don't see much resale value in Van de Beek if he is a success at Real Sociedad, given his age, as he has already failed in the PL, which is the main market for high priced transfers.

So far he has been a success at Ajax, failed at United, unimpressive on loan at Everton, occasional starts for the Netherlands.

Is La Liga closer to the PL or to Eredivisie ? That's the key question. Do Real Sociedad play like Ajax ?

There have been so many matches in which Van de Beek has been almost invisible. He makes runs that team-mates don't understand. He often passes the ball straight back to where it came from. He lacks pace and strength to get away from opponents. At Ajax he demonstrated some technical ability but not really seen it at United.
 
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kundalini said:
I don't see much resale value in Van de Beek if he is a success at Real Sociedad as he has already failed in the PL, which is the main market for high priced transfers.

So far he has been a success at Ajax, failed at United, unimpressive on loan at Everton, occasional starts for the Netherlands.

Is La Liga closer to the PL or to Eredivisie ? That's the key question.

There have been so many matches in which Van de Beek has been almost invisible. He makes runs that team-mates don't understand. He often passes the ball straight back to where it came from. He lacks pace and strength to get away from opponents. At Ajax he demonstrated some technical ability but not really seen it at United.
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OMG. We should send Anthony back as well then.
 
elvelux said:
Hi!
I´m a Real Sociedad fan. I entered here to see how you view the possible exit of VDB from MU. Real Sociedad is very VERY VEEEEERY cautious with expending since the problems that put the club in risk a decade ago. We have specialized in the last years in improving players that had bad experiences in bigger clubs. I call ourselves Rehab Sociedad.

I don´t see Real Sociedad spending more than 12 m€ on VDB... and that if MU insists on a sale and not a loan with sale option.

And if VDB have a 12m salary like I read here... he would have half that at Real Sociedad... at best.
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We at Utd have never seen the DVB of ajax. The player who was had a deal done to sign for Real Madrid were it not for covid happening.

I think a loan without an obligation to buy workz for both clubs. If he re-discovers his ajax form in spain (which i think he might, as spainish football will suit him better) then sociedad have a good player for a season. Utd have a player whos value will rise.

If it doesnt work, sociedad dont have to buy him and utd will then probably let him go for the small amount that sociedad could afford this summer if they bought him i.e. rock bottom price.

I think he will be good for sociedad, he needs gametime and a chance to rediscover his best form. The slow slow, fast slow spainish football will suit him better than PL.
 
I know that's a nothing source but I remember they were the ones who brought the sociedad interest in the first place and Romano confirmed it

 
al tuna said:
20m euro? I just don't see any team getting near that. 10m would be miraculous.
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A loan with an option to buy for 20m Euro's is more likely, DvB is just not suited to the physicality of the PL, in Spain or Italy I suspect he'd do well
 
al tuna said:
20m euro? I just don't see any team getting near that. 10m would be miraculous.
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It did not say Real Socidad would pay €20 mill. His book value is probably around €16 mill, so obviously we would accept that.

The best paid players at Real Socidad make half of what Donny do. How eager is he to play football? £6 mill eager? Probably not, but that is what that move would cost him.

Their most expensive player ever cost them €20 mill. They have also bought a few for €15 mill. If Man Utd are lucky, they will pay €10-15 mill, and Man Utd will have to pay him to leave. Leaving the club with a loss.
 
I'm very surprised a decent La Liga team like Sociedad are looking at him - he's surely not good enough.

I'd be surprised if he could get regular starts anywhere above the level of say a mid-tableish Serie A side like Fiorentina.
 
Sociedad only paid once a 20m€ transfer fee to recruit a player. A fan explained (perhaps upthread) they're very cautiously managed presently. They're not picking an option to buy so expensive.
 
kundalini said:
I don't see much resale value in Van de Beek if he is a success at Real Sociedad, given his age, as he has already failed in the PL, which is the main market for high priced transfers.

So far he has been a success at Ajax, failed at United, unimpressive on loan at Everton, occasional starts for the Netherlands.

Is La Liga closer to the PL or to Eredivisie ? That's the key question. Do Real Sociedad play like Ajax ?

There have been so many matches in which Van de Beek has been almost invisible. He makes runs that team-mates don't understand. He often passes the ball straight back to where it came from. He lacks pace and strength to get away from opponents. At Ajax he demonstrated some technical ability but not really seen it at United.
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He's 23...
 
Only way we get any money for him is by including a clause that we get money every time he makes a 3 yard sideway pass.
 
Djemba-Djemba said:
He's been absolute shite here.

Doesn't seem to be good at anything, he has to be one of the worst signings we've ever made. Getting 15m for him would be a miracle.
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To be fair though we had Bruno so I don’t know what people expected. His best role is in the AM and that was at Ajax. He was never taking Bruno’s position. Was a pointless buy, I think it was just a rushed deal rather than a planned one.
 
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