Granted he’s had little chance with us, but in the rare cameos he’s looked the epitome of a nothing player to me. I don’t think he was purchased with a clear view on how he was going to be utilised. We definitely could have spent the money better elsewhere.
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I guess we signed him because he's a talented yet fairly cheap player in the current climate, we could quicken a deal because of our connections with VDS and its was a signing that was possibly made to appease the fans due to our main rival for top 4 at the time Chelsea quickly enhancing the quality in their squad.
I honestly think he's a fantastic player but he either needs to move, United get a new manager or Ole needs to stop being so defensive.
Yesterday is the perfect example of how shit a game of football is when two teams line up with a defensive double pivot, that's what we have done all season and why we have been so poor to watch (until the attacking subs come one when we're chasing a game and lo-and-behold we play better). VdB can play anywhere but he is clearly best as a CM in a possession heavy, attacking team. We hate possession in offensive areas and we are not an attacking team so I don't see why he'd stick around to just sit on the bench.
Yesterday is the perfect example of how shit a game of football is when two teams line up with a defensive double pivot, that's what we have done all season and why we have been so poor to watch (until the attacking subs come one when we're chasing a game and lo-and-behold we play better). VdB can play anywhere but he is clearly best as a CM in a possession heavy, attacking team. We hate possession in offensive areas and we are not an attacking team so I don't see why he'd stick around to just sit on the bench.
I keep hearing the fact he was cheap as a justification for signing him and can see he might be seen as relatively cheap if he comes in and improves the team. If not he is a bad use of what is still a significant transfer fee. We could have got someone like partey or aouar for not too much more, depending on what position we actually wanted to strengthen.
It does seem odd he doesnt seem to fit in to oles plans given what we hear about how involved ole is in identifying transfer targets and progressing transfers
17 appearances in first season for a 50m signing is actually close to nothing. We paid solid chunk of transfer budget that year and couldn't even expect player to make any real impact.
Donny will most likely play more in his first season, however we're in the middle of December with about 8 performances from him, just saying. The club need to start using the signings bit more efficiently, especially when throwing good amounts of funds on them.
Im wondering why van der beek finds himself in such a underwhelming scenario at the club because he is on record saying that solskjaer spoke to him personally about how he intended to use him at united before deciding to sign for the club. I very much doubt this was the plan that made him think this was the right move.
I also think that this is the case. He'd never leave Ajax for a guaranteed spot on the bench. Why would he? Though i doubt the promise was made that he'd be a starting XI from the start. But that he atleast would get some more chances than he has had at the moment.
In some games we need to play two defensive midfielders, so him not starting those games is completely understandable. City was one of those matches. Personally I do think he should have come off the bench though.
Over the last few weeks he's been starting more games and I think we've started seeing our more long term strategy take shape. First against Basaksehir and then the following match against Southampton we played VDB and Fred in central midfield. He was never going to start against PSG for the same reason as City. He probably would have played in central midfield again against West Ham except we took the opportunity to rest Bruno so VDB played the more attacking role (and was poor). Leipzig is the only recent game that was debatable to me, but it's understandable that we went with the two DM's. Maybe if Fred had been available we could have played Fred-VDB again, but without him we (rightfully) don't trust Matic or McTominay enough to play that role solo.
Going forward it looks likely that in the easier games we will look to play a more attacking player (Pogba or VDB) next to Fred, and in the harder games it'll be a more defensive player (Matic or McTominay). In the short term it's Pogba's return that might make it difficult for VDB to get a consistent run as they may have to share that position. Personally I'd prefer VDB get most of the games to help build longterm, but if Pogba is performing well like he has the last few games it's hard to leave him out. I definitely hope VDB plays against Leeds because of their pressing, so maybe Pogba will play against Sheffield United. The next few games are happening with only a few days between them so obviously we will rotate.
Over the last few weeks he's been starting more games and I think we've started seeing our more long term strategy take shape. First against Basaksehir and then the following match against Southampton we played VDB and Fred in central midfield. He was never going to start against PSG for the same reason as City. He probably would have played in central midfield again against West Ham except we took the opportunity to rest Bruno so VDB played the more attacking role (and was poor). Leipzig is the only recent game that was debatable to me, but it's understandable that we went with the two DM's. Maybe if Fred had been available we could have played Fred-VDB again, but without him we (rightfully) don't trust Matic or McTominay enough to play that role solo.
Going forward it looks likely that in the easier games we will look to play a more attacking player (Pogba or VDB) next to Fred, and in the harder games it'll be a more defensive player (Matic or McTominay). In the short term it's Pogba's return that might make it difficult for VDB to get a consistent run as they may have to share that position. Personally I'd prefer VDB get most of the games to help build longterm, but if Pogba is performing well like he has the last few games it's hard to leave him out. I definitely hope VDB plays against Leeds because of their pressing, so maybe Pogba will play against Sheffield United. The next few games are happening with only a few days between them so obviously we will rotate.
Ole said that to all 3 signings this summer and so far it looks like he didn't mean it.
Started a thread way back questioning why we bought the player. Thread was locked. Question remains!
Squad depth clearly? He can cover Bruno at the 10 or play CM.
It's not his fault that Ole hasn't given him as many matches as he should have. Ridiculous that he wasn't brought on against City.
Ole also clearly prefers Pogba in CM, so he's sort of stuck at the moment until Pogba leaves or an injury etc.
I like Donny, I don’t understand the hate he gets on here. He hasn’t even been given a proper chance so far. He is a million miles better than Fred but then so is my nan or my dead cat. Donnys problem isn’t that he thinks we play pass and move football here which we just don’t. We play take five touches in the middle and pass it back to Maguire who tries to ping a long ball but kicks it out of play. We need to start playing to people’s strenghts and not just say. “Your playing for man united, go enjoy yourself” Our players haven’t got a clue what to do and it’s evident through the crap we have to watch week in week out.
People forget we're going to now have to play every 3 days for the next few weeks and now on Thursdays. He will get 15+ starts this year and it will be up to him to show he deserves more.
When we signed him, I thought we will play him alongside Bruno with a holding player behind them against smaller teams. They definitely have the workrate for it and I figured it would help us keep the ball and penetrate teams that sit deep. In theory it could work as VDB is press resistant and times his runs into the box well but Ole loves his 2 DMs. So I don't understand why he signed him. We'd have been better off signing someone like Neves that plays deep but can pass the ball well.
He's not a million times better than Fred in the role Fred actually plays for us. In fact I'd say Fred is better at that role than VDB easily.
If you argue he's a better player than Fred I don't think you're wrong there at all. He is. However when we don't play Fred our midfield looks a total shambles.
Ole doesn't know how to play 433. He just needs that defensive solidarity of 2 DMs
Rightly so.
In the interview i read he said that he joined because Ole told him he'd be playing as a ten. But that's clearly not the case as Bruno has that position nailed when we do play with one. I can't imagine he was told he'd be fighting it out with Bruno for the ten spot, as he would have known that was a losing battle. My gut feel was that he was either lied to or he didn't give the full picture in regards to their convo. It's likely he was told he'd play Ten when Bruno was rested or moved deeper and that he'd be used in a number of positions in the meantime, since he can play 3 or 4. The other scenario is that we've known for a while that Pogba was gone this summer and VDB was told to bide his time until that point and he'd be slowly integrated and Pogba's replacement. But again, you'd think we'd try and start him more if that was the case. For what it's worth, I think we need more players like him, who are technical and can move and keep the ball in a progressive manner in tight spaces. It just so happens, that we leak too many goals without 2 dm;s in ole's system at the moment.
We look like a more complete team with Matic at the base and a midfield of VDB, Bruno and fred/pogba. But i don't understand why haven't yet signed Matic's replacement because there's no way in hell we should be playing a 2 Dm system if we want to be competiting for the title in my eyes.
We look like a more complete team with Matic at the base and a midfield of VDB, Bruno and fred/pogba. But i don't understand why haven't yet signed Matic's replacement because there's no way in hell we should be playing a 2 Dm system if we want to be competiting for the title in my eyes.
He’s a good player but obviously the type who has to play in a super-coached possession-based team. Ole doesn’t know what to do with him and Donny doesn’t probably doesn’t have it in him to step up from being a component player.
Without a different coach I can’t see Donny really doing it at United. Seems like a good player who signed for United at the wrong time.
Without a different coach I can’t see Donny really doing it at United. Seems like a good player who signed for United at the wrong time.
Fred, DvB, Bruno midfield tonight please, can't believe we haven't seen it since that Basaksehir game at home.
Thursday!
He doesn't get any hate on here.
Doh! On Thursday*
I feel this is quite a harsh opinion:
Really? I felt he had a very good impact against Palace, he was one of our best players linking defence with attack against Southampton (he's the most press resistant player we have), he was good against Leipzig and Bashakthair at OT, and yes he had a stinker against West Ham (but then again, the entire team did).
Personally I expect VDB will only start one of the next two games we have within three days, and I think he'd be better suited to beating the hard pressing of Leeds. I reckon it'll be Pogba playing against Sheffield United.
I'm not sure if I'm making excuses for him or not- but I wonder if Ole knows what he is doing and is waiting until we get a CDM before he uses VDB.
VDB as a CAM makes runs all over the place almost as a CF rather than a creative player which requires that stability from deeper positions, especially if Bruno plays a bit deeper too but also allowed to get forward (again needing that CDM, which both Fred and Mctomminay have struggled with).
Then as a CM VDB has shown he can play a bit more of a build up type of midfielder role, has a decent ability to get stuck in but probably needs to grow in to the physicality of the league a bit but again also needs someone more physical than Fred and Mctomminay to be his partner when playing as a CDM to do the truly dirty work.
The fact is people talk about how great we looked with Fred, Pogba and Bruno vs Sevilla - as great as we looked as an attacking midfield unit, there was a reason we lost that game. We has no stability.
Whilst I initially had a feeling that VDB may have been a Pochettino signing playing behind a striker, I'm starting to feel that Ole's waiting for the right CDM before we reorganise our midfield around. VDB can play as a goalscorer (almost like a false 9/CAM behind striker or as a build up CM) but the more I think about it the less he can do such a role without the stability of a CDM providing cover in deeper areas.
We all know Fred and Mctomminay are good players but they are both together doing a single CDM players job. Van De Beek has the ability to make deadly runs and finishes into space and Bruno Fernandes has the ability to make those type of passes to find them too but none of this can happen until we get a CDM to balance out midfield out.
VDB as a CAM makes runs all over the place almost as a CF rather than a creative player which requires that stability from deeper positions, especially if Bruno plays a bit deeper too but also allowed to get forward (again needing that CDM, which both Fred and Mctomminay have struggled with).
Then as a CM VDB has shown he can play a bit more of a build up type of midfielder role, has a decent ability to get stuck in but probably needs to grow in to the physicality of the league a bit but again also needs someone more physical than Fred and Mctomminay to be his partner when playing as a CDM to do the truly dirty work.
The fact is people talk about how great we looked with Fred, Pogba and Bruno vs Sevilla - as great as we looked as an attacking midfield unit, there was a reason we lost that game. We has no stability.
Whilst I initially had a feeling that VDB may have been a Pochettino signing playing behind a striker, I'm starting to feel that Ole's waiting for the right CDM before we reorganise our midfield around. VDB can play as a goalscorer (almost like a false 9/CAM behind striker or as a build up CM) but the more I think about it the less he can do such a role without the stability of a CDM providing cover in deeper areas.
We all know Fred and Mctomminay are good players but they are both together doing a single CDM players job. Van De Beek has the ability to make deadly runs and finishes into space and Bruno Fernandes has the ability to make those type of passes to find them too but none of this can happen until we get a CDM to balance out midfield out.
He played 433 before with Herrera Matic Pogba in midfield.
Beek's a great player, youse a feckin idiots. Go support chelsea.
You're talking bollocks there pal. The only reason we lost was because our forwards missed a mountain of chances, and our defence messed up twice. Nothing to do with midfield stability at all.
It is better for him to leave.
Strange choice from both sides in the first place.
The lack of combination football kills him, he doens't have the quality, long shot and pass of Bruno so he will never be a regular
It was better for him to go to Arsenal. Less competition on the midfield there and get use to the premier league and the country
Also he was not the exeptional talent (almost end product) like Frenkie de Jong or Matthijs de Ligt. so he just have to improve in many ways. but by not playing he will not improve.
Strange choice from both sides in the first place.
The lack of combination football kills him, he doens't have the quality, long shot and pass of Bruno so he will never be a regular
It was better for him to go to Arsenal. Less competition on the midfield there and get use to the premier league and the country
Also he was not the exeptional talent (almost end product) like Frenkie de Jong or Matthijs de Ligt. so he just have to improve in many ways. but by not playing he will not improve.
Can you give an example of a player for that CDM role, or a team that plays with such type of role (a single CDM)?
Frenkie de Jong / Busquets
I don't know why there is such an uproar. Ole made a mistake with selection and tactics against Leipzig as Donny would have been perfect but at home against City is understandable.
He is going to get his chances, he needs to make himself undroppable . We have seen him play CM with Fred / McTominay in against Istanbul and on both occasions we did get exposed in midfield. We have seen him play CAM against West Ham and he struggled to get in the game.
VDB is not going to play the Bruno passes, he likes to receive them and play one touch, the diamond Ole uses suits him and he team well because we can have 2 DM's and Donny and Bruno in the team.
Hopefully we continue with that and Bruno and Pogba can rotate, in some games we can start all 2 with Fred as the DM
He is going to get his chances, he needs to make himself undroppable . We have seen him play CM with Fred / McTominay in against Istanbul and on both occasions we did get exposed in midfield. We have seen him play CAM against West Ham and he struggled to get in the game.
VDB is not going to play the Bruno passes, he likes to receive them and play one touch, the diamond Ole uses suits him and he team well because we can have 2 DM's and Donny and Bruno in the team.
Hopefully we continue with that and Bruno and Pogba can rotate, in some games we can start all 2 with Fred as the DM
I agree with this assessment, however I don't think it's his fault. Really good player but his game seems to be lots of simple pass & move before ghosting in to dangerous positions in and around the box. With Bruno always looking for the killer ball and Utd wanted to utilize the pace of the likes of Rashford and Martial it's all a bit too direct for him IMO.
Hindsight I know but Hojbjerg would have been a much more impactful signing leading to a more balanced midfield for less than half the price.
When he has played he has shown he has some excellent qualities in terms of possession and attacking play.
He lacks the defensive traits of Fred which I think is the reason Fred gets in ahead of him, as he is better than Fred in terms of attacking ability.
If we had better CBs I think VDB easily slots in with Matic as the DM and Bruno as the focal point to the team.
He lacks the defensive traits of Fred which I think is the reason Fred gets in ahead of him, as he is better than Fred in terms of attacking ability.
If we had better CBs I think VDB easily slots in with Matic as the DM and Bruno as the focal point to the team.
So, pretty much the players that actually play together more often than not
I get your point but I never feel comfortable with one midfielder tasked to shield the defence while the other has more license to roam, I think it's a shared job (just like de Jong and Busquets have been performing it)The way I see it is when i say a Pure CDM is someone like Busquets that allowed Xavi and Iniesta to play with him. Kind of covered the defensive duties alot in midfield.
Then at Real Madrid whilst modric and Kroos do help in midfield defensive duties they are able to focus on the build up play much more in my opinion because of someone like casemiro's ability to handle the defensive ability by themself.
Fernandinho is someone else who did this by him seldom which literally allowed Pep to play David Silva and Bryune as AM/CM.
Again I like Fred and Mctomminay and think they are good enough to be in our squad to play as a box to box CM role or maybe 'compete' for the CDM role for the purpose of depth - but they are not that type of player we can put at the bottom of our midfield and be creative with 2 attacking minded midfielders in the same set up. It's just a bit too dangerous.
I remember last season Matic was generally quite important to us and now he is clearly not fit at all to be putting up the types of performances he did last season. Some would argue that he hasnt been that type of 'single CDM' type of player in his career either and yet I think when he had that energy you could see the extra defensive stability he gave to our team when he played in our team.
I think it's possible Ole feels like we need that proper CDM before we see more Van De Beek.
You can tell he’s an accomplished player with good control, can see a pass and has an engine. I hope he doesn’t fall into the same trap as Memphis and others and start the passing sideways crap. Perhaps Ole knew Pogba would either be a problem or would leave and Donny would be ready to step in to replace him. In fairness, there’s not much to replace on current form. Just a thought.
I think you are missing one very serious tactical element with all the examples you gave. Barcelona, Real and City hog possession and compress their opponents to incredible amounts. They force them to play on super direct counters with a few pacy players who need to catch the dominating side on the break.
The only way to get to that type of domination is to have the absolute best players from a technical and physical point of view who can both keep the ball in possession while being able to do the constant movement and pressing necessary to control games for full 90 minutes.
I think we can agree that we do not have the same calibre of players to play that game?
And if we don't dominate games that much, then a single CDM cannot be expected to take care of the few opponents trying to hit us on the break.
I understand that but as much as Ole can be a defensive manager at times I do see a manager who has been very flexible with his tactics (almost too flexible at times).
I say this because you wonder if getting that CDM helps change our tactics.
I have wanted us to play 433 for absolutely ages, maybe it will happen or maybe not but you wonder if getting that pure CDM allows us to play that one day.
We get that CDM and maybe we switch to something like 433 rather than a 4231 and we are able to hold on to our possession a bit better than usual.
You look at how our squad is possibly may turn out to be with some transfers in and out - Pogba is not a hard working player who is maybe replaced by a CDM. Van de Beek may take Pogbas place who in my opinion can be a more attacking minded player than Pogba further up the pitch, whilst a more team oriented player from deep though Pogba is a better deep lying playmaker. Then to me Martial to me is another player who suits counter attacking football alot, drops deep and makes the passes to the wider forwards alot on the counter rather able to take a chance that is created to him when the possession is with us. Ole had targeted Haaland in his first transfer window, targeted Cavani this transfer window and even started to use Rashford and Greenwood in a striker Partnership.
I just think that a CDM gets VDB's ability to play with another attacking minded midfielder like Bruno in the same team - Bruno can play as a CAM to utelise his creativity further up the pitch whilst we can use VDB shorter build up play at CM; or like for Portugal occasionally Bruno's creativity can be dropped a little deeper (especially when Pogba leaves) whilst someone like VDB can play to get more clinical. Then we may change the way we use our strikers aswell, let him play like as a SS behind a big built up striker like Haaland/Cavani, or a false 9 behind a striker partnership like Rashford and Greenwood.
However, I don't think none of this can happen until a CDM is bought and VDB adapts to the league's physique aswell. The difference in the formation and tactics that Ole uses gives me a bit of hope that it can click one day with the ability to variable aswell when needed.
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