Dominoes draft: R1 - Tuppet vs Sjor/Indy

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

In addition, i would expect Nedved to drift inside to overload the midfield and allow Marcelo to attack the flanks

They are against one of the best defensive fullback in this draft. With Vogts already playing conservatively, it's a tough ask.

The flank you need to exploit is one with Zambrotta. He's the weakest fullback and player across both teams... and you're not taking advantage. Needed vs Zambrotta is a clear cut advantage which is being ignored here.

 

[Tuppet]

They are against one of the best defensive fullback in this draft. With Vogts already playing conservatively, it's a tough ask.

The flank you need to exploit is one with Zambrotta. He's the weakest fullback and player across both teams... and you're not taking advantage. Needed vs Zambrotta is a clear cut advantage which is being ignored here.

Really ? defensively when the other team has Marcelo you are naming a world cup winning Zambrotta (From the Italian team that won it mostly on the back of their defense) who was selected in the all star team as the weakest fullback, I very much disagree with it. Littbarski vs Marcelo is equally big mismatch here.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Really ? defensively when the other team has Marcelo you are naming a world cup winning Zambrotta (From the Italian team that won it mostly on the back of their defense) who was selected in the all star team as the weakest fullback, I very much disagree with it. Littbarski vs Marcelo is equally big mismatch here.

He played on the right in the World Cup though and imo the right is Zambrotta's best and more experienced side.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Personally id rate Marcelo and Zambrotta about the same level, both fantastic players at what they do so its just the case of what you need in your team.

 

[Tuppet]

He played on the right in the World Cup though and imo the right is Zambrotta's best and more experienced side.

Think Zambrotta had established that he was very successful and capable on both sides. In euro 2004 for example he played all the games in LB role and was still selected in the all star team. I don't think he by any means is a weaker fullback defensively than Marcelo.

 

[Tuppet]

Personally id rate Marcelo and Zambrotta about the same level, both fantastic players at what they do so its just the case of what you need in your team.

I would agree with this, Marcelo slightly better attacker and Zambo slightly better defender.

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Think Zambrotta had established that he was very successful and capable on both sides. In euro 2004 for example he played all the games in LB role and was still selected in the all star team. I don't think he by any means is a weaker fullback defensively than Marcelo.

That's fair. I just don't think its entirely accurate to use the World Cup as an example where he played right-back.

 

[Indnyc]

I think the fullbacks are more or less the same but we have a slightly better central defensive pairing.. Desailly+Bonucci are a much better pairing than Silva-Blanc

Silva is a great defender but hardly at the same level as the other 3.. IMO he is the weaklink in the defense and will find it difficult to cope with Eto'o/Seeler

 

[Gio]

I think the fullbacks are more or less the same but we have a slightly better central defensive pairing.. Desailly+Bonucci are a much better pairing than Silva-Blanc

Silva is a great defender but hardly at the same level as the other 3.. IMO he is the weaklink in the defense and will find it difficult to cope with Eto'o/Seeler

Dunno about that. Desailly is the standout, but the other three aren’t far off each other. Silva has better credentials than Bonucci imo and his club career is some margin ahead of Blanc’s. Obviously the latter has an impeccable international CV and you’d pair them here based on the success of their partnership for France.

 

[Tuppet]

I think the fullbacks are more or less the same but we have a slightly better central defensive pairing.. Desailly+Bonucci are a much better pairing than Silva-Blanc

Silva is a great defender but hardly at the same level as the other 3.. IMO he is the weaklink in the defense and will find it difficult to cope with Eto'o/Seeler

It depends how you rate Silva and Bonucci. Blanc and Deasilly (in his CB role) are equal in my opinion and Deasilly's best position was in DM role for milan. But he was a very good stopper for sure. Bonucci I am not sure how to rate, he was among the best defenders in the world when he was supported by two other fantastic defenders and played a lot of games with 2 other CBs (tbf he played in a lot of back 4 as well) but has fallen from a cliff since his move to Milan. Thiago Silva enjoyed probably more amount of time as the best defender in the world from 2009-12, so I don't think your defense is particularly better than mine. And I would argue that the defensive shield of Davids-Ocwirk is better than Cambiasso - Scholes.

 

[Indnyc]

It depends how you rate Silva and Bonucci. Blanc and Deasilly (in his CB role) are equal in my opinion and Deasilly's best position was in DM role for milan. But he was a very good stopper for sure. Bonucci I am not sure how to rate, he was among the best defenders in the world when he was supported by two other fantastic defenders and played a lot of games with 2 other CBs (tbf he played in a lot of back 4 as well) but has fallen from a cliff since his move to Milan. Thiago Silva enjoyed probably more amount of time as the best defender in the world from 2009-12, so I don't think your defense is particularly better than mine. And I would argue that the defensive shield of Davids-Ocwirk is better than Cambiasso - Scholes.

Don't agree with Davids-Ocwirk being better defensive pairing than Cambiasso-Scholes especially when Scholes is dictating play from the back. It maybe a personal preference but i like Bonucci over Silva and Desailly over Blanc.

 

[Indnyc]

Dunno about that. Desailly is the standout, but the other three aren’t far off each other. Silva has better credentials than Bonucci imo and his club career is some margin ahead of Blanc’s. Obviously the latter has an impeccable international CV and you’d pair them here based on the success of their partnership for France.

I wouldn't say Silva has better credentials than Bonucci but as then that may be a personal preference. Agree Desailly stands out here and hence i would rate Desailly + Bonucci over Silva and Blanc. It may be fine margins but in an incredibly close game as this, its all about the fine margins

 

[Moby]

Cruyff getting the short end of the stick here. Cambiasso and Scholes is a good midfield but they'd be run ragged here.

 

[Indnyc]

Cruyff getting the short end of the stick here. Cambiasso and Scholes is a good midfield but they'd be run ragged here.

It’s equally the same on the other end for laudrup.

Another point that I would like to discuss is the Cryuff - Rudd partnership. Cryuff would be better suited to someone who stretches the play and drags defenders out of position. I would think Ruud being the more traditional no. 9 doesn’t suit Cryuff as well.

Laudrup on the other hand has someone to stretch the play a lot more

 

[Tuppet]

It’s equally the same on the other end for laudrup.

Another point that I would like to discuss is the Cryuff - Rudd partnership. Cryuff would be better suited to someone who stretches the play and drags defenders out of position. I would think Ruud being the more traditional no. 9 doesn’t suit Cryuff as well.

Laudrup on the other hand has someone to stretch the play a lot more

I would say its not equally the same as Cruyff was better attacker and Davids was the better DM, but we have already discussed that.

The more interesting point here about Ruud-Cruyff pairing. I think Ruud is perfect partner for Cruyff, firstly because his off the ball movement was outstanding. He is definitely stretching the play vertically when your defenders have to be pinned back for keeping tabs on him. A traditional number 9 is better for a fantastic dribbler like Cruyff because they can play with their back toward goal and don't need ball on their feet to do their best work, thats good for Cruyff because he wants to hold the ball as much as possible.

 

[Indnyc]

I would further add that if Vogts is playing a conservative role that means Nedved will have a lot of freedom to help in midfield and if you add Etoo and Seeler who work hard as attackers you will get a compact defensive unit so Cruyff wont ran ragged past Cambiasso and Scholes as he wont be against them, he will be against the whole unit.

We are not concerned as much about Zambrotta going forward either so who ever is playing from the right can come inside so all of the sudden we have a lot of bodies in the middle which does few things.

Cruyff wont get much space as it looks at first glance and he will need to drop very deep to actually get the ball as Davids and Ocwirk dont have a finesse to get the ball toward him in these conditions

 

[Tuppet]

I would further add that if Vogts is playing a conservative role that means Nedved will have a lot of freedom to help in midfield and if you add Etoo and Seeler who work hard as attackers you will get a compact defensive unit so Cruyff wont ran ragged past Cambiasso and Scholes as he wont be against them, he will be against the whole unit.

Well Vogts is not just going to sit there he is clearly going to go forward if the flank is empty and Nedved is in the midfield. He is going to pick his battles more wisely than say Zmabrotta but that doesn't mean that he is going to do anything. Also this applies to your team even worse because your right flank is made of a striker and a very conservative fullback in Bergomi. So Boniek would have freedom of the flank.

We are not concerned as much about Zambrotta going forward either so who ever is playing from the right can come inside so all of the sudden we have a lot of bodies in the middle which does few things.

I think you would ignore Zambrotta at your own peril, combined with Boniek thats a hell of a flank attckingwise and could overwhelm Bergomi.

Cruyff wont get much space as it looks at first glance and he will need to drop very deep to actually get the ball as Davids and Ocwirk dont have a finesse to get the ball toward him in these conditions

Here's the exaggeration part. You don't get selected as 31st greatest European player of century without having something. You can try and belittle Ocwirk but there are fairly concrete proof that he was an absolutely fantastic midfielder with great passing ability. He was picked to captain Rest of World XI, selected in World cup ToTs and was selected by world soccer's 100 greatest players of all time. So saying he doesn't have finesse to pass get the ball forward is just silly exaggeration.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Another point that I would like to discuss is the Cryuff - Rudd partnership. Cryuff would be better suited to someone who stretches the play and drags defenders out of position. I would think Ruud being the more traditional no. 9 doesn’t suit Cryuff as well.

The more interesting point here about Ruud-Cruyff pairing. I think Ruud is perfect partner for Cruyff, firstly because his off the ball movement was outstanding. He is definitely stretching the play vertically when your defenders have to be pinned back for keeping tabs on him. A traditional number 9 is better for a fantastic dribbler like Cruyff because they can play with their back toward goal and don't need ball on their feet to do their best work, thats good for Cruyff because he wants to hold the ball as much as possible.

Aye, this is an interesting point. I agree that Ruud's movement was incredible, and his hold up play was very underrated too. What gives me pause for thought, maybe irrationally as Cruyff the manager/pundit isn't Cruyff the player, is that thinly-veiled disdain he seemed to have for RVN.

 

[Edgar Allan Pillow]

Really ? defensively when the other team has Marcelo you are naming a world cup winning Zambrotta (From the Italian team that won it mostly on the back of their defense) who was selected in the all star team as the weakest fullback, I very much disagree with it. Littbarski vs Marcelo is equally big mismatch here.

Ah, fair enough. I missed that. I do rate Zambrotta ahead of Marcelo.

 

[Ecstatic]

Another great game.

I would have swapped:

- Littbarski with Boniek: say Polish version more offensive than the Juve one, and Littbarski 90 to combine with the Italian Brehme
- Cambiasso with Scholes but I understand the rationale the left-footed Davids vs Cambiasso

I'm comfortable with the positioning of Seeler, the question is more about the coverage: for example, was Bergomi capable to play as a right wing-back?

 

[oneniltothearsenal]

Blanc and Deasilly (in his CB role) are equal in my opinion and Deasilly's best position was in DM role for milan.

Even if you think Desailly best position is DM for Milan, I don't think Blanc is on Desailly level as CB. That seems to overrate Blanc a bit.

Eto'o is also being underrated a bit. I don't think either of your CB matches up well with him.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I will never understand people obsession with central midfield sides, id sa at least 80% of players are comfortable and have same performance levels on both.
Both cambiasso/scholes and ocwirk/davids can easily play both sides and in fact all four would play both sides as game will drag you right, left and center.

 

[Moby]

I will never understand people obsession with central midfield sides

@antohan is the biggest culprit for that.

It has never bothered me unless it was a diamond or something.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@antohan is the biggest culprit for that.

It has never bothered me unless it was a diamond or something.

Yeah, in formations where midfielders provide width or defend a fair share of their time out wide because team doesnt have outlets out wide it makes sense but you constantly see those comments in midfield twos which is complete bs.

 

[antohan]

Yeah, in formations where midfielders provide width or defend a fair share of their time out wide because team doesnt have outlets out wide it makes sense but you constantly see those comments in midfield twos which is complete bs.

It's for this very reason. In a diamond it's far more obvious, but if that matters then it still matters in other formations where it is less needed because games are fluid and the greater comfort is bound to be handy here and there.

That said, I do agree Scholes is better on the left side and when your two men are him and Cambiasso you prioritise Scholes. My gripe with those things generally isn't "Cambiasso won't work on the right" but "in an all-time draft, having Scholes, why of all people would you pick a left-footed Cambiasso/Davids? at RCM?".

I like the Eto'o-Seeler-Nedved trio. More of an acquired taste, and I would have placed Eto'o right and Seeler top but can see you are prioritising showing how you work the channels/manage the game phases and Seeler was exceptionally well rounded.

"If you've got it flaunt it" I guess and a first round is a good occasion to make that case, create a bit of hipsteria, and setup Eto'o for an upgrade as he is the most upgradeable of the three.

 

[Ecstatic]

I will never understand people obsession with central midfield sides, id sa at least 80% of players are comfortable and have same performance levels on both.
Both cambiasso/scholes and ocwirk/davids can easily play both sides and in fact all four would play both sides as game will drag you right, left and center.

I was more reasoning in terms of coverage. Seeler will be naturally inclined to join the attack, so if he goes up, who will animate the right flank and support him?

Swap day for me so I say I would have swapped Laudrup with Seeler

That said, I love your players

Contrary to enigma, no potential war of egos for team Tuppet

 

[Indnyc]

Here's the exaggeration part. You don't get selected as 31st greatest European player of century without having something. You can try and belittle Ocwirk but there are fairly concrete proof that he was an absolutely fantastic midfielder with great passing ability. He was picked to captain Rest of World XI, selected in World cup ToTs and was selected by world soccer's 100 greatest players of all time. So saying he doesn't have finesse to pass get the ball forward is just silly exaggeration.

It’s not underrating Ocwirk but in an all time draft with great players all over it isn’t a stretch to say that they will find it difficult to pass their way thru a crowded midfield unlike someone like a Scholes who has done that time and again.

 

[Raees]

I will never understand people obsession with central midfield sides, id sa at least 80% of players are comfortable and have same performance levels on both.
Both cambiasso/scholes and ocwirk/davids can easily play both sides and in fact all four would play both sides as game will drag you right, left and center.

I used to think the same but as I've got older and from playing experience, I tend to favour the left side of central midfield. Its obviously not a huge difference unlike the other positions on the pitch, but the way you receive the ball, your ability to shoot, spread the play, your spatial awareness on the pitch.. and if you're very one-footed.. I can certainly see why such things may make differences on the pitch and at an all time level could separate one great side from another.

At United we have such a player in Pogba, who certainly favours one side of midfield. Iniesta would be another one. Not saying that is a consistent feature for all players but each player is different and if there is a case to be made for someone being uncomfortable down one side of midfield, let it be made and we will see if there is enough evidence to support such a conclusion.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

I used to think the same but as I've got older and from playing experience, I tend to favour the left side of central midfield. Its obviously not a huge difference unlike the other positions on the pitch, but the way you receive the ball, your ability to shoot, spread the play, your spatial awareness on the pitch.. and if you're very one-footed.. I can certainly see why such things may make differences on the pitch and at an all time level could separate one great side from another.

At United we have such a player in Pogba, who certainly favours one side of midfield. Iniesta would be another one. Not saying that is a consistent feature for all players but each player is different and if there is a case to be made for someone being uncomfortable down one side of midfield, let it be made and we will see if there is enough evidence to support such a conclusion.

You are talking about playing in midfield three while i was commenting midfield two scenarios, when you have a DM behind you you dont tend to switch positions so often as you are focused on "your side" of the pitch while in a midfield two and when you have an AM above you the game takes you everywhere and you have to adapt. Lets take Scholes and Cambiasso as an example so we dont go OT to much.
Scholes will sit deep and dictate the game while Cambiasso will do the running, if he does all the running only on the right side that would make on sense at all just like it wouldnt make sense if Scholes only stayed in a left defensive mid zone and wait for defenders to pass him, he will circle around and look for the perfect space in a perfect time to receive the ball. Defensive wise its even a bigger thing, will Cambiasso stop chasing someone or will refuse to intefere because opponent overstept on his teammate side? If you watch that Cambiasso vid we posted, you see Cambiasso playing as an RCM but time and time again he moves to the left because game lead him to it or he was sensing the danger(Messi).

 

[antohan]

I don't find either side particularly convincing.

@Tuppet's defence isn't well suited for a high line and the combination of defence and central midfield looks more appropriate for a counter-attacking side.

@Šjor Bepo has a great defence but I would have preferred a sturdy platform in midfield with Cambiasso + a B2B midfielder (yes, ideally one that can peel wide right as Seeler drifts infield). Scholes is great but I'm not seeing a side that particularly needs him, Cambiasso on the ball is sufficient when Nedved and Laudrup are immediately ahead.

 

[antohan]

You are talking about playing in midfield three while i was commenting midfield two scenarios, when you have a DM behind you you dont tend to switch positions so often as you are focused on "your side" of the pitch while in a midfield two and when you have an AM above you the game takes you everywhere and you have to adapt. Lets take Scholes and Cambiasso as an example so we dont go OT to much.
Scholes will sit deep and dictate the game while Cambiasso will do the running, if he does all the running only on the right side that would make on sense at all just like it wouldnt make sense if Scholes only stayed in a left defensive mid zone and wait for defenders to pass him, he will circle around and look for the perfect space in a perfect time to receive the ball. Defensive wise its even a bigger thing, will Cambiasso stop chasing someone or will refuse to intefere because opponent overstept on his teammate side? If you watch that Cambiasso vid we posted, you see Cambiasso playing as an RCM but time and time again he moves to the left because game lead him to it or he was sensing the danger(Messi).

The side is irrelevant defensively / without the ball.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

@antohan you cant have to much ability on the ball in the team as long as they have right personalities. Having Scholes and in a way Marcelo and Bonucci deep will free up the likes of Laudrup, Nedved and co. so the fluidity of the attacking quartet will be a much bigger issue for tuppets team then if we had Cambiasso + another DM/B2B as that would mean someone would often had to drop back because Cambiasso on the ball while its good, is nowhere near good enough to be a leading playmaker from the deep areas that will cut the first defensive line.

 

[Moby]

I can't remember a single time Scholes ever got any credit in these drafts.

 

[Raees]

You are talking about playing in midfield three while i was commenting midfield two scenarios, when you have a DM behind you you dont tend to switch positions so often as you are focused on "your side" of the pitch while in a midfield two and when you have an AM above you the game takes you everywhere and you have to adapt. Lets take Scholes and Cambiasso as an example so we dont go OT to much.
Scholes will sit deep and dictate the game while Cambiasso will do the running, if he does all the running only on the right side that would make on sense at all just like it wouldnt make sense if Scholes only stayed in a left defensive mid zone and wait for defenders to pass him, he will circle around and look for the perfect space in a perfect time to receive the ball. Defensive wise its even a bigger thing, will Cambiasso stop chasing someone or will refuse to intefere because opponent overstept on his teammate side? If you watch that Cambiasso vid we posted, you see Cambiasso playing as an RCM but time and time again he moves to the left because game lead him to it or he was sensing the danger(Messi).

Yep in a 4-3-3, the effect is more pronounced so lets focus on midfield pivots (2 CMs or CDM/CM pairing) i.e. 2 man midfield. Now FWIW, I have no issue with Scholes/Cambiassio nor do I know enough about them both in terms of positions to contribute to the discussion here (from memory though I can remember Scholes playing left side mainly, that is where I remember him at his best). Was just saying from personal experience and having played in 2 man mids, it has made a slight difference to me (on the ball) to be on the left side of the pairing, was easier in terms of first touch and spreading play/getting shots off and I'm ambidextrous, so I can imagine for a more one-footed player, it would have more of an effect for some players as to what side they're playing in regardless if they're right or left footed.. it can just suit their style.

Off the ball, won't make a difference.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

Yep in a 4-3-3, the effect is more pronounced so lets focus on midfield pivots (2 CMs or CDM/CM pairing) i.e. 2 man midfield. Now FWIW, I have no issue with Scholes/Cambiassio nor do I know enough about them both in terms of positions to contribute to the discussion here (from memory though I can remember Scholes playing left side mainly, that is where I remember him at his best). Was just saying from personal experience and having played in 2 man mids, it has made a slight difference to me (on the ball) to be on the left side of the pairing, was easier in terms of first touch and spreading play/getting shots off and I'm ambidextrous, so I can imagine for a more one-footed player, it would have more of an effect for some players as to what side they're playing in regardless if they're right or left footed.. it can just suit their style.

Off the ball, won't make a difference.

Whats funny though is the fact that Cambiasso at his peak played through the right and people still have issues because he is left footed
From my playing experience, i only started preferring playing from the left(as a right footed) when i turned to shit so every little bit helped, before that i couldnt care less and tbf we were never really assigned you play RCM you play LCM, got your tasks and roles so it was up to us two in the middle to line up.

 

[Raees]

Whats funny though is the fact that Cambiasso at his peak played through the right and people still have issues because he is left footed
From my playing experience, i only started preferring playing from the left(as a right footed) when i turned to shit so every little bit helped, before that i couldnt care less and tbf we were never really assigned you play RCM you play LCM, got your tasks and roles so it was up to us two in the middle to line up.

I think the default should be it doesn't make a difference unless proved otherwise.

 

[Moby]

Let's just say it's beyond the human capabilities of being anal.

 

[Šjor Bepo]

congrats @Tuppet , dont mind losing against a good team. Apart from T. Silva and Ruud(partnership with Cruyff not individual quality) i really like it, good luck in the next round.

 

[Indnyc]

Congratulations @Tuppet. All the best for the next rounds

Thanks for setting the draft up as well, I really enjoyed it.

 

[Pat_Mustard]

Let's just say it's beyond the human capabilities of being anal.

Although what's the point of draft matches if we can't be ridiculously, infuriatingly anal?