Dominoes draft: R1 - Skizzo vs Pat_mustard

Who would win in the following draft game with all players at their peak?

  • Total voters
    31
  • Poll closed .
@Physiocrat @Pat_Mustard

All of the 1966 WC games are the tube, at which time he was 28 I think and pretty much at his peak.

I'm posting some highlights I think they are worth the watch. I've watched the full games a while back, mainly because of Beckenbauer, but you can get a glimpse of Schulz here and there and also his positioning and the way he regains his position after he's sliding into tackle is pretty good.



The videos are top quality considering the age and Schulz is #5 and der Kaiser is #4 in the videos.
 
I have to edge towards Pat here as I think he's more likely to score. Sheva/Romario are complimentary pair and they have the genius of Kopa behind. Add in Brehme's crosses plus Veron/Stevie's influences, he has more avenues to move the ball forward to attack. For Skizzo, he'd be more dependant on wings and may get outnumbered in the middle. Here, Pat's fullbacks give him an edge defensively.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I have to edge towards Pat here as I think he's more likely to score. Sheva/Romario are complimentary pair and they have the genius of Kopa behind. Add in Brehme's crosses plus Veron/Stevie's influences, he has more avenues to move the ball forward to attack. For Skizzo, he'd be more dependant on wings and may get outnumbered in the middle. Here, Pat's fullbacks give him an edge defensively.
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Edgar Allan Pillow said:
While bitching about the "luck of the top half" these two have sneakily built in super strong teams. Pat is just a DM and Gerrard replacement short of a final worthy team.
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:lol: Cheers mate and whilst I didn't really have much love for my team throughout the drafting process I'm happy with the finished product.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I have to edge towards Pat here as I think he's more likely to score. Sheva/Romario are complimentary pair and they have the genius of Kopa behind. Add in Brehme's crosses plus Veron/Stevie's influences, he has more avenues to move the ball forward to attack. For Skizzo, he'd be more dependant on wings and may get outnumbered in the middle. Here, Pat's fullbacks give him an edge defensively.
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Sheva and Romario will be dependent on Kopa to provide the service to them. Makelele is probably the best person to have in terms of shutting down a mobile playmaker.

Brehme pushing forward means Robben is even more dangerous on the counter with Vidic the one covering. Also without a pair of full backs to fully exploit the space on the wings in a diamond, it means the majority of the threat comes centrally, and with a Makelele-Godin-Forster trio there with both of my full backs able to tuck in since there's no wingers, it shuts down a lot of that space they'd need to exploit.

On the flip side, having the full backs in Zanetti and Cabrini overloading and overlapping Robben and Neymar, it opens up the attack for us because it means the midfield has to spread to cover forcing Gerrard and Vieira into wide areas, or the full backs have to rely on help from the central defenders, who are both more comfortable defending deep, and won't want pacy tricky attackers moving inside on them without help.

On our side we have both the options of going wide with Robben/Zanetti and Neymar/Cabrini, who can link up and put balls into Van Basten, who I'd back to have some success. The alternative is as Gerrard moves out wide to cover the overlapping runs, Overath now becomes the priority of Veron. While he's no mug, Overath's ability going forward is better than what Veron's defensive game can hope to consistently shut down.

With a fluid front 3, and options to overload and spread the field on attack, I'd back us to be on the score sheet, and if we score first, we become even more dangerous on the counter as players are forced to push up even more.

Look what you've done now Edgar. You've forced me to start attacking @Pat_Mustard and his boys before he runs off comfortably into the sunset.
 
Realistically though, I can't fault much with his set up. Bit of a lack of natural width, but Gerard's well suited to that role to help with that.

We're both set up rather well to counter each other's strengths, and somewhat to exploit each other weaknesses, so I can't fault anyone for siding closely one way or the other depending on how they see those fine margins.
 
Skizzo said:
Realistically though, I can't fault much with his set up. Bit of a lack of natural width, but Gerard's well suited to that role to help with that.

We're both set up rather well to counter each other's strengths, and somewhat to exploit each other weaknesses, so I can't fault anyone for siding closely one way or the other depending on how they see those fine margins.
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Think that's about right. Slight personal preferences to one formation or certain players they know/like may swing a voter one way or the other.... it's certainly not clear cut, two good teams.
 
Pat_Mustard said:
Brilliant stuff @Enigma_87 . Cheers! Maybe those match highlights are what I was thinking of when I thought there were all-touches compilations knocking around of Schulz.
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Cheers mate. It was a damn good side and Schulz kept Beckenbauer in midfield for a long time due to some solid performances at the back. Have picked him before and nice to see him again featuring in drafts.

Skizzo said:
Realistically though, I can't fault much with his set up. Bit of a lack of natural width, but Gerard's well suited to that role to help with that.

We're both set up rather well to counter each other's strengths, and somewhat to exploit each other weaknesses, so I can't fault anyone for siding closely one way or the other depending on how they see those fine margins.
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Yeah, pretty much as I see it as well.

You have a great attacking three tho. I can see each of them complimenting well each other and van Basten will get plenty of service. Your defence is also spot on, whilst I can see Pat having an upper hand in midfield.

Pat's team will have the bugger share in possession and will probably control the game, but then again it's how you have setup as well so it shouldn't be an issue soaking pressure.

I'd go with individual brilliance but both teams have that in attack. I'll mull it over a bit once again.
 
Fairly recently i watched all german games from that 66 WC and Schulz was comfortably their best player after Seeler and Beckenbauer. Looks like a fantastic player and certainly a perfect fit for Nemanja.
 
Skizzo said:
Sheva and Romario will be dependent on Kopa to provide the service to them. Makelele is probably the best person to have in terms of shutting down a mobile playmaker.

Brehme pushing forward means Robben is even more dangerous on the counter with Vidic the one covering. Also without a pair of full backs to fully exploit the space on the wings in a diamond, it means the majority of the threat comes centrally, and with a Makelele-Godin-Forster trio there with both of my full backs able to tuck in since there's no wingers, it shuts down a lot of that space they'd need to exploit.

On the flip side, having the full backs in Zanetti and Cabrini overloading and overlapping Robben and Neymar, it opens up the attack for us because it means the midfield has to spread to cover forcing Gerrard and Vieira into wide areas, or the full backs have to rely on help from the central defenders, who are both more comfortable defending deep, and won't want pacy tricky attackers moving inside on them without help.

On our side we have both the options of going wide with Robben/Zanetti and Neymar/Cabrini, who can link up and put balls into Van Basten, who I'd back to have some success. The alternative is as Gerrard moves out wide to cover the overlapping runs, Overath now becomes the priority of Veron. While he's no mug, Overath's ability going forward is better than what Veron's defensive game can hope to consistently shut down.

With a fluid front 3, and options to overload and spread the field on attack, I'd back us to be on the score sheet, and if we score first, we become even more dangerous on the counter as players are forced to push up even more.

Look what you've done now Edgar. You've forced me to start attacking @Pat_Mustard and his boys before he runs off comfortably into the sunset.
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:lol: Divide and Rule. A classic strategy from Edgar. One point I'll counter is this

Sheva and Romario will be dependent on Kopa to provide the service to them. Makelele is probably the best person to have in terms of shutting down a mobile playmaker.
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While it's a nuisance to field a great central playmaker and find fecking Makelele in the opposition team ready to suffocate him, one of the best things about the diamond formation is that you can accomodate another playmaker, in this case Veron. He's more than capable of finding Romario and Shevchenko directly and bypassing Kopa, and for that matter shuttling forward either with the ball or ready to receive a pass from Kopa if Makelele's pressing him.

Somewhat in answer to Veron's defensive game vs Overath and just because I love this video, here's Veron in his mid-30s throwing himself into tackles, assisting goals and generally fighting like feck to win the Copa Libertadores for his boyhood club Estudiantes:



Gorgeous assist for Forlan from 0:50



And another for Giggs

 
Skizzo said:
Realistically though, I can't fault much with his set up. Bit of a lack of natural width, but Gerard's well suited to that role to help with that.

We're both set up rather well to counter each other's strengths, and somewhat to exploit each other weaknesses, so I can't fault anyone for siding closely one way or the other depending on how they see those fine margins.
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Pretty much this.
For me the CB pairing and DM combination did the trick in Skizzo's favor.
Veron is not loaded over here defensively, but I would have been more confident and gone with Pat if he had a more solid CB pairing.
All in all a very close game.

One a different note, I think Skizzo could have considered changing the tactics mid way to make Thurram less effective, Neymar much more effective and to exploit Veron to the maximum, once the lineups were out with the below formation.

---------MvB-----------Robben--------
---------------Neymar-----------------
------Overath----------Hanappi-------
---------------Makelele----------------
Cabrini--------CB pair----------Zanetti

Formation to formation comparison, would have titled it in his favor I think.
Only thing Pat would have is a better No.10. Rest of the attack is even.
Skizzo would have the better fullback combination and the perfect DM for the formation who can drop between the CB when the fullbacks attack with freedom.
Having the better CB pairing too would have made it a way easier decision for me at least.
 
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I'm trying to decide who will be more influential between the two players who would have the most space on the park - Zanetti and Veron. Can see them both having excellent games here.

Šjor Bepo said:
Fairly recently i watched all german games from that 66 WC and Schulz was comfortably their best player after Seeler and Beckenbauer. Looks like a fantastic player and certainly a perfect fit for Nemanja.
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Yeah and you can see how Weber is very similar in style and strengths to Vidic.
 
Voted for Pat as I like his defence a tad better. That, and Sheva - Romario partnership. Although it was very hard to vote against Skizzo after that OP :lol:
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Perhaps Skizzo could have played a diamond with Kroos and moved Overath to #10. Neymar and Mvb upfront...

Takes attack to Veron and moves Neymar away from Thuram.
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Can't not play Robben though. Him and Zanetti are an incredible right flank, both top 5 of all time in their positions IMO.
 
Gio said:
Can't not play Robben though. Him and Zanetti are an incredible right flank, both top 5 of all time in their positions IMO.
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Robben almost played as a second striker in the 2014 WC though and looked good in the role.
Don't mind him a front 2 at all personally although never seen him used that way in drafts.
 
Gio said:
both top 5 of all time in their positions IMO.
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Agree on Zanetti, but Robben a top 5 right winger of all time is a bit of a stretch, imo.

Tier 1: Garrincha
Tier 2: Matthews, Hamrin, Figo, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Donadoni, Conti, Beckham, Lato
Tier 4: Robben, Amaro, Rep, Johnstone

is how I'd rate them.

idmanager said:
Don't mind him a front 2 at all personally although never seen him used that way in drafts.
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His best position is running at the defence from the deep. I'd definitely not play him upfront or around the box player. Out of the box, running in is what he does best...just like he's played this match.
 
idmanager said:
Robben almost played as a second striker in the 2014 WC though and looked good in the role.
Don't mind him a front 2 at all personally although never seen him used that way in drafts.
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This.

Was pretty good at it as well. With Neymar in the hole also he'll pose more issues to Veron rather than Thuram.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Agree on Zanetti, but Robben a top 5 right winger of all time is a bit of a stretch, imo.

Tier 1: Garrincha
Tier 2: Matthews, Hamrin, Figo, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Donadoni, Conti, Beckham, Lato
Tier 4: Robben, Amaro, Rep, Johnstone

is how I'd rate them.
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Agree with this, albeit with small adjustments.

Tier 1: Garrincha
Tier 2: Matthews, Figo, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Hamrin, Conti, Beckham, Lato, Robben
Tier 4: Amaro, Rep, Johnstone, Donadoni
 
Nah Skizzo's current frontline is the obvious fit for those three. Those wingers will cause problems with their pace and directness outwide especially with that kind of support behind them.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Tier 1: Garrincha
Tier 2: Matthews, Hamrin, Figo, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Donadoni, Conti, Beckham, Lato
Tier 4: Robben, Amaro, Rep, Johnstone

is how I'd rate them.
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How is Robben's CV less impressive than that of Donadoni or Lato? Or even Hamrin for that matter. I'd only have Garrincha, Matthews and Figo ahead of him and all the others are comparable.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Agree on Zanetti, but Robben a top 5 right winger of all time is a bit of a stretch, imo.

Tier 1: Garrincha
Tier 2: Matthews, Hamrin, Figo, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Donadoni, Conti, Beckham, Lato
Tier 4: Robben, Amaro, Rep, Johnstone

is how I'd rate them.



His best position is running at the defence from the deep. I'd definitely not play him upfront or around the box player. Out of the box, running in is what he does best...just like he's played this match.
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Enigma_87 said:
Agree with this, albeit with small adjustments.

Tier 1: Garrincha
Tier 2: Matthews, Figo, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Hamrin, Conti, Beckham, Lato, Robben
Tier 4: Amaro, Rep, Johnstone, Donadoni
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No Messi?
Best can play on the right as well.
Boniek would be there.
Johnstone seems underrated.
 
harms said:
How is Robben's CV less impressive than that of Donadoni or Lato? Or even Hamrin for that matter. I'd only have Garrincha, Matthews and Figo ahead of him and all the others are comparable.
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Robben's peak is sensational but overall his CV isn't outstanding. Half of his career is marred by injuries:
For Country: Looked great at Euro 08 but got knocked in QF by fecking Russia. Sneijder was the main man in 2010 and Robben missed 1v1s in the final. Looked good vs a finished Spain team in 2014 but again gassed out after a great start.

For club: Excellent when fit for Chelsea but lots injuries. Very average and injury prone at Madrid. Revived at Madrid and had 2-3 world class seasons winning the CL.

Enormous peak though. That goal in 2014 where he beats Ramos after starting from behind is iconic.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
His best position is running at the defence from the deep. I'd definitely not play him upfront or around the box player. Out of the box, running in is what he does best...just like he's played this match.
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Best positions in the context of a particular match can be different.
Neymar here for example is almost double the player in the hole rather than against Thurram, doesn't mean its his best or most used position in general.
 
Moby said:
No Messi?
Best can play on the right as well.
Boniek would be there.
Johnstone seems underrated.
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I have Messi at his best as a false 9 and Best on the left. Obviously both would be in Garrincha's tier tho if we include them.

I thought about putting Johnstone a tier above tbh.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I have Messi at his best as a false 9 and Best on the left. Obviously both would be in Garrincha's tier tho if we include them.

I thought about putting Johnstone a tier above tbh.
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I think wingers tag should only be limited to players capable of playing either in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1.
 
Enigma_87 said:
I have Messi at his best as a false 9 and Best on the left. Obviously both would be in Garrincha's tier tho if we include them.

I thought about putting Johnstone a tier above tbh.
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Think Messi has been world class at both positions as was best so I would include them.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Agree on Zanetti, but Robben a top 5 right winger of all time is a bit of a stretch, imo.

Tier 1: Garrincha
Tier 2: Matthews, Hamrin, Figo, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Donadoni, Conti, Beckham, Lato
Tier 4: Robben, Amaro, Rep, Johnstone

is how I'd rate them.
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Completely disagree with those tiers when it comes to Robben.

For me it would be the following:

Tier 1: Garrincha, Best, Messi
Tier 2: Figo, Robben, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Matthews, Hamrin
Tier 4: Johnstone, Lato, Boniek, Conti
Tier 5: Beckham, Rep, Donadoni etc

Personally I would push Johnstone even higher (to tier 2 or 3) as I think he's an absolute monster of a right winger but might be controversial.
 
I'm a huge fan of Pat's backline, particularly the Schulz-Vidic partnership. That's the best way to set them up and bring the best out of them. However, I struggle to see how Skizzo's right side can be contained. I can't see how Pat's midfield and Brehme can deal with that left side without creating gaps for Overath to exploit. As good as Veron was off the ball, I don't see how he'll be able to contain the overload and limit Overath. If Gerrard comes in to help, then that leaves Cabrini in lots of space, and Overath is very good at shielding the ball against tenacious midfielders like Gerrard. On top of that, I don't see Gerrard being able to get a handle of Overath's movement. Overath was excellent at finding spaces in the midfield and making himself available to receive a pass. You need to be smart against him, and if you try to merely follow him and attempt to man-mark him out, he can easily drag you around and create spaces for others.

For me, Skizzo wins this.
 
Moby said:
Nah Skizzo's current frontline is the obvious fit for those three. Those wingers will cause problems with their pace and directness outwide especially with that kind of support behind them.
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As a best lineup and in a course of a season I agree.

However in the current game Neymar attacking the space in the middle and moving him away from Thuram, whilst also probing centrally could leave space for Romario and Shevchenko to exploit. Skizzo would benefit from putting Neymar close to Veron with his trickery and pace to create openings.

idmanager said:
I think wingers tag should only be limited to players capable of player either in a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1.
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It's tricky. Players like Cruyff, Best, Kalle, Messi, Eusebio etc can play both wide and up top. It depends on the matchup and the opposition whether and how effective they would be in a given matchup to me. For example although Neymar is at his natural position - the one he has played most in his career at club level (although he was more central for Santos and Brazil NT) doesn't mean that he can't be more effective deployed centrally in the current matchup - as you noted above.

Depends on ability and of course if they have played in the position they are asked for and the opposition they are facing.

With a attacking full back in Cabrini, who will engage Thuram when moving vertically, I also think Neymar would be more useful in the middle and perhaps put a better performance.
 
Raees said:
Completely disagree with those tiers when it comes to Robben.

For me it would be the following:

Tier 1: Garrincha, Best, Messi
Tier 2: Figo, Robben, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Matthews, Hamrin
Tier 4: Johnstone, Lato, Boniek, Conti
Tier 5: Beckham, Rep, Donadoni etc

Personally I would push Johnstone even higher (to tier 2 or 3) as I think he's an absolute monster of a right winger but might be controversial.
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Becks is too low IMO. At his peak - end 90's he was our best performer at times and truly world class level on consistent basis.

Jairzinho on the back of that 1970 performance deserve to be in tier 2. I don't think Robben is as good as Figo was tho. I'm a huge Figo fan (as maybe most of you guys have noticed already) and even if we disregard the Ballon D'or award, he constantly put close to top performances on regular basis (moreso than Rivaldo and Zidane at the time) and at a time was the best player in the world(due to Fenomeno being injured).

Robben have put some memorable performances, but as mentioned his career was marred with injuries and coming in and out of them. I think he only has a single season playing more than 40 games in all comps?

He had a great 2014, but then again the other guys in tier 1 and 2 for me are bigger difference makers that provided on regular basis.

Johnstone is tricky and perhaps @Gio might provide more accurate estimation as he knows him much better than me.
 
The problem with winger hierarchies is that there are so many different types. I discussed this with Bepo a while ago and made the distinction between traditional wingers (a la Matthews and Garrincha), roaming wingers (Best and Finney), inside-forwards (Ronaldo and Stoichkov), wide playmakers (Ronaldinho and Messi).

With those distinctions Robben is probably a roaming winger. We had these as Top 5 both left and right-

Figo
Finney
Best
Hamrin
Jairzinho
 
Physiocrat said:
The problem with winger hierarchies is that there are so many different types. I discussed this with Bepo a while ago and made the distinction between traditional wingers (a la Matthews and Garrincha), roaming wingers (Best and Finney), inside-forwards (Ronaldo and Stoichkov), wide playmakers (Ronaldinho and Messi).

With those distinctions Robben is probably a roaming winger. We had these as Top 6 both left and right-

Nani
Figo
Finney
Best
Hamrin
Jairzinho
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Corrected
 
Physiocrat said:
made the distinction between traditional wingers (a la Matthews and Garrincha), roaming wingers (Best and Finney), inside-forwards (Ronaldo and Stoichkov), wide playmakers (Ronaldinho and Messi).
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Curious, what was the distinction?

I'd have them clubbed into wingers (Garrincha, Best, Finney, Matthews) and wide forwards (Messi, Cristiano, Stoichkov, Messi, etc).
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
I consider then as Wide Forwards. Wingers typically should be able to fit in a 4-2-3-1 or a 4-4-2. Sure Cruyff, Eusebio and Kalle could, but it'd not be their best position imo.
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Perhaps it's easier to differentiate wingers as providers - players like Giggs, Beckham, Figo, Matthews, etc with main task is to create for others and players like Neymar, C. Ronaldo, etc who are goalscoring forwards.

You can easily field wingers in 4-3-3 as well if you have a fox in the box type striker who scores the goals the wing men provide.

A modern day 4-2-3-1 however is bit tricky as you need those two wing forwards to both score goals and stretch the play, but also you need a complete striker like Suarez who can drop to the wing and pull the defenders out of position to create space.

The attackers nowadays are more all rounders which also is due to the formations and tactics deployed. There are less and less target men who play on the shoulder of the defender and depend on service, which makes the pure touchline hugging wingers a dying breed.
 
Raees said:
Completely disagree with those tiers when it comes to Robben.

For me it would be the following:

Tier 1: Garrincha, Best, Messi
Tier 2: Figo, Robben, Jairzinho
Tier 3: Matthews, Hamrin
Tier 4: Johnstone, Lato, Boniek, Conti
Tier 5: Beckham, Rep, Donadoni etc

Personally I would push Johnstone even higher (to tier 2 or 3) as I think he's an absolute monster of a right winger but might be controversial.
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This is broadly how I would set it out. I think Garrincha, Messi and Best are a notch above with their unparalleled close dribbling skills. Figo probably edges Robben based on his Ballon D'Or and variety in his game (a deeper toolbox to call upon against tough opposition). That puts Robben 5th for me. Hard to pitch Finney, Matthews, Hamrin and Johnstone given the relative lack of footage and international exposure (bar Hamrin), but I'd put them in a group together alongside Robben. Jairzinho I think is a little over-rated as a result of his brilliant finishing in 1970 - looked a little one-dimensional in 1966 and 1974. He's in the conversation but I don't see him ahead of the boys above.

harms said:
How is Robben's CV less impressive than that of Donadoni or Lato? Or even Hamrin for that matter. I'd only have Garrincha, Matthews and Figo ahead of him and all the others are comparable.
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Agree with this.

Physiocrat said:
The problem with winger hierarchies is that there are so many different types. I discussed this with Bepo a while ago and made the distinction between traditional wingers (a la Matthews and Garrincha), roaming wingers (Best and Finney), inside-forwards (Ronaldo and Stoichkov), wide playmakers (Ronaldinho and Messi).

With those distinctions Robben is probably a roaming winger. We had these as Top 5 both left and right-

Figo
Finney
Best
Hamrin
Jairzinho
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I'm glad someone mentioned Finney who I'd have just above Matthews based on how they were ranked by their peers at the time. He was quite Robben-esque as well in the way he cut inside onto his left foot all the time and had an excellent scoring record.
 
Edgar Allan Pillow said:
Curious, what was the distinction?

I'd have them clubbed into wingers (Garrincha, Best, Finney, Matthews) and wide forwards (Messi, Cristiano, Stoichkov, Messi, etc).
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Trad wingers primarily get down the line an whip it in. Roaming wingers can hold their own on a flank without an attacking full-back but cut in much more and provide significant goal threat. Inside-forwards rely typically on attacking full-backs to provide the width and focus on goal-scoring. Wide-playmakers are similar to inside-forwards but are much more creative and not as focused on goals.
 
Physiocrat said:
The problem with winger hierarchies is that there are so many different types. I discussed this with Bepo a while ago and made the distinction between traditional wingers (a la Matthews and Garrincha), roaming wingers (Best and Finney), inside-forwards (Ronaldo and Stoichkov), wide playmakers (Ronaldinho and Messi).

With those distinctions Robben is probably a roaming winger. We had these as Top 5 both left and right-

Figo
Finney
Best
Hamrin
Jairzinho
Click to expand...

While Garrincha did played in the wings for almost all of his career, he too would mostly cut in and shoot, and was not traditional English WM style winger tbh.
 
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