I am not sure why he look shoehorned to you but surely you don't mean Cruyff should only be played in total football sides. He is absolutely perfect and essential for my tactic. I needed someone who is a great playmaker but can also score his fair shares of goals as I don't want to be dependent on RVN alone. That alone narrow it down to a handful of players in all time context. But add the fluidity and dribbling ability I need behind RVN and someone who can overload the flanks, he is absolutely perfect here. Surrounded by two hardworking wide forwards who would stretch the game for him and would surrender the possession to him. I can't really think of a better player to play my number 10 here.
Dominoes draft: QF - Tuppet vs Moby
- Thread starter Enigma_87
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How is Vogts easily going to take care of what is a potential 2v1 situation against him with the likes of Platini, Vieri and Modric available in the middle?
Litti in a loss-loss situation here given Evra's insane fitness and stamina levels along with his pace and dribbling. I don't think he would track him all the time in the first place, it is a physical challenge to do that and the more he attempts the more he gets tired. What you needed there was a midfielder who could help defend out wide which isn't the case with Ocwirk.
Whatever context it is, a peak Evra won 3 leagues and a champions league in 3 years while being the primary left back influencing the attacking phase time and again. There's no doubt in his offensive skill and playing as a wingback puts you in a big dilemma on how to manage his forward runs especially with Del Piero (and Modric depending on the situation as he's just as comfortable on either side) and that extra presence will force Vogts to go out wide and create space for us.
Can't see him being anywhere near what he was good at naturally here, especially given the choice of the centre forward. Cruyff famously in that tactical video explained the role of the centre forward in his team and it's not what RvN is. Someone like Seeler or Tostao for example would be a great fit because they aren't just limited poachers but have the technical ability to combine with midfielders and play them in from time to time.
I don't trust van Nisterooy against my defenders in the first place. My central defense will close down all areas inside the box for him to find any space.
I also think Scirea and Popescu are great candidates to manage a threat like Cruyff given they are incredible readers of the game and can contain Cruyff's playmaking. Cant think of anyone better than Scirea for that job, especially with a defensive support which he would be delighted to lead to a tight defensive performance as usual.
RvN definitely sticks out as a sore thumb here both given his own team as well as what he's up against.
I don't know what to say here, I guess I'll let voters decide but Evra for me was never the uber attacking wing back in the mould of Roberto Carlos / Facchetti etc. For one during all those trophy winning teams he was not playing a wing back and almost always had a winger in front of him. So that already puts his attacking contribution in perspective. I have mentioned Litti's work rate already he can totally keep track of him, but more importantly Evra has to keep track of him.
And sure a two on one might happen on Vogts if Litti doesn't track back, but thats counting on my player's mistake. Surely its the same for Bergomi if Amoros is caught higher in the pitch and Boniek & Zambo (Who has won a WC, and was selected in ToT for WC and Euro Cup and has actually played as wing back) make a 2 on 1 on Bergomi. With Davids and Cruyff in close attendance.
Agree to disagree I guess. Its the same Cruyff who played and loved Romario in his teams. In his video he also described how he doesn't want the player to always come near him and crowd the space but go far and pull defenders and provide him with options. His incredible dribbling mean he can beat a few player himself and taking ball away from him is not easy. In my opinion he would relish this scenario with a striker looking to stretch the defense vertically, not demanding ball and doing his best work off the ball.
Sure, I don't most will have any trouble in recalling his constant attacking forays combining with Giggs or Ronaldo. At his best he was considered the best left back in the league along with Cole. His attacking skill were never in question, only defending skills that too late in his career when at his prime he defended against the best teams out there. But in this role he's been released as a perfect support for that central core.
Whether or not you rate him he is going to be present when we have the ball and someone will need to take care of him and given we are playing on the counter if Litti doesn't catch up it will have to be Vogts which is what I want, to draw him away from Del Piero and use that space for the Italian to weave his magic.
Right off the bat, RvN is literally nowhere near Romario in terms of technique, dribbling and link up play.
I don't understand here is how is Evra constantly attacking when he has to contend with Litti. You can not be suggesting that Littbarski is a worse attacker than Evra. He already has a hell of a job in his hand and with no wingers to help him here as well. Unless you want Littbarski to constantly pull Chiellini out in wide areas you can't be surely be asking Evra to be too cavalier with his attacking.
RvN isn't going to do that either. His best came with us when we dominated the possession and he was stationed inside the box waiting for Beckham to cross. Sure, his movement inside the box is great but it's where I have put up a defensive wall and there's no Beckham to find him at the backpost either. If they do, say hello to a certain Beppe Bergomi.
It's just a real misfit which hinders the all round influence Cruyff would prefer to have. Cruyff isn't your typical passing #10 like Laudrup, his best always came in free roles starting as a forward but roaming all around the pitch. I don't think he ever played with a poacher? He had inside forwards who could score like Rep and Rob, and players breaking from midfield like Neeskens. Like I said, it isn't terrible overall but this doesn't look like a Cruyff team at all, as opposed to mine which is a Platini team start to end. That's a big difference here.
He is not, but he is playing the same role that Romario was playing for Cruyff's team. Your examples of Tostao or Seeler seem to suggest you want someone who drops deep and works hard, by Romario example I am trying to convey that that's not only way Cruyff play.
Unless you are suggesting that we will never touch the ball, we will attack and on the counter most of the time. In which phase Evra will obviously attack given his role and style of play.
I couldn't think of a better candidate for that role against a wide formation where the wingback needs be a freak athlete first and foremost so that he can contribute in attack while always being a presence in defense. Evra's pace and stamina is unquestionable and he is physically better than Little which is a big factor in that duel.
Firstly Romario didn't play with Cruyff, and if he did Cruyff would have demanded a lot more all round effort as he did with all of his teammates.
Either ways, Romario is light years away from RvN in terms of style of play.
But my team is set to dominate possession in this game. Your 5 defender approach is definitely counter attacking so if you are saying thats where RVN's best came I'll take it. Its the same with Cruyff who also preferred to play the game in front foot. The other thing about Cruyff preferring to play all over the pitch is also correct. I just don't know whats stopping him from doing that here. He is instructed and is required to play all over the pitch.
Cruyff's not playing with a poacher didn't really had to do anything with Cruyff.Dutch and Ajax were playing Total football and in that there was no room for a true number 9 but that doesn't mean that there is anything that would make Cruyff not able to play with them.
I'm not really getting the Cruyff role criticism. I think there are enough players who can either do the running and legwork for him - Davids and Boniek - and others he can bounce off - Ocwirk and Littbarski. I get that RVN doesn't necessarily fit the notion of total voetbal homage sides, but I daresay if Holland had a centre-forward like him finishing off what Cruyff and others created, they'd have had the final wrapped up by half-time in '74. Of course you can built better Cruyff tribute sides, but it doesn't mean he wouldn't shine in this set-up.
I agree with the part that he would do good against Litti, he was a good fullback but saying that he would be running the attack as wingback when he always played with a winger in front of him is asking relying too much on him. Litti was world class winger and Evra would do well to stop him, but the keeping up has to be done by Evra. Also the physically better part is I am not sure of, do you mean he was bigger and stronger because I don't see any evidence that Evra was faster and Litti was an incredible dribbler.
The criticism is more for RvN than Cruyff who wouldn't be able to replicate his best performances here. Not exactly an all time heavyweight first of all, he's facing a massive wall of defense with two uncompromising stoppers and Scirea covering - quality wise my defense shouldn't have a problem to contain him.
Secondly I don't agree he would have great with Cruyff even in that era. He's far too static and limited and not someone who would play off the shoulder of a CB and could run behind the defense making use of that service. I would have someone like Eto'o as a good fit with Cruyff while being a striker primarily but not RvN.
I meant faster, more durable and he has elite level stamina.
In this formation wingbacks always play a key role, and I have no problem in using Evra as a quick outlet out of defense before passing it on to the others. Scirea will release him for fun, and he will provide a similar support as Marcelo does at Madrid. They constantly use wingbacks to open teams up with Marcelo and Carvajal bring the ball out of defense and it's what Evra did to perfection at his peak. Rio always used him as an outlet knowing he will be start attacking with his pace and dribbling. Of course I'm not saying he will be using the ball majority of the time but he's a great outlet, a great support for Del Piero and a great weapon to stretch things and create space.
Here you see Modric capping off a brilliant run past multiple defenders with a beautiful pass to Marcelo who was overlapping in support. Something that is perfectly possible here with Evra being constantly in support.
Think I've highlighted a lot of the key stuff here.
- A brilliantly balanced front three packed with skill and ruthless scoring ability.
- Platini not facing an defensive midfielder who would protect the defense giving him and Del Piero a lot of space.
- Both wingbacks getting joy out wide especially Evra who would be vital in dragging Vogts out wide and create numerical advantages in the middle.
- An uncompromising back 5 that will defend as a unit and has the quality to contain the opposition.
- A genius defender in Scirea with Popescu in midfield means Cruyff's playmaking is appropriately dealt with in both areas.
- RvN being a misfit in the team given the players around him and what he's facing.
- The central core of Scirea, Popescu, Modric and Del Piero with a classic clinical and powerful centre forward in Vieri are well set to be at their best and constantly bombard the opposition with lightning quick direct waves of attack.
- What exactly is Ocwirk doing?
I'm with Gio on Cruyff. I really don't see how having a focal striker limits Cruyff's game, if anything it gives him more space to work in as RVN pins the CBs back. Also Boniek and Littbarski are complementary players who will be on Cruyff's wavelength. The main issue with Tuppet's side is probably Ockwirk with Davids. I'd prefer more of a DM alongside Davids especially against Platini.
Re-Evra. His end product was always suspect so I don't see him being an effective wing-back going forward - his crossing was rather poor. I do like though Moby's front three which gets the best out of all three.
Re-Evra. His end product was always suspect so I don't see him being an effective wing-back going forward - his crossing was rather poor. I do like though Moby's front three which gets the best out of all three.
Agree, Blanc was clear cut above. Shame people's appreciation is skewed by his time with us. It's a bit like Rooney and his last few seasons.
Which is why I have focussed on him drawing out Vogts and not saying that he will be playing like Brehme here. He wasn't a crossing type wingback but at the same time had excellent technique, close control and link up play especially with Ronaldo who used to combine with him a lot.
The Marcelo comparison is a great one even moreso with Modric on the pitch. Tremendous pace, stamina and technique, with good dribbling and link up play that allows the team to create constant 2v1 situations on that side and put defenders under pressure. Evra similarly has a good drilled cross on him and with predators like Vieri in the box and Platini on the edge of it, he can easily make an impact.
But primarily - great outlet from the back, stretch Vogts out, link up with Del Piero which are all excellent for my team.
Don't disagree, ably dealt with a solid defensive core of Davids / Ocwirk / Maldini / Blanc supported by conservative Vogts.
Both wingbacks facing two of the best wingers / wide forwards of the game, not sure how they are gtetting joy out wide and creating numerical advantages.
The back 5 is very good, however since your wingbacks are creating numerical overloads on the other side of the pitch so I am not sure how they are dealing with my world class attack as well.
Explained it a few times, but RVN is a perfect fit as a lethal number 9 to convert all the service he is receiving.
Yet you are playing mostly on the counter so I don't see how you have it both ways.
He is a defensive midfielder and deep lying playmaker his role is to play as well defensive midfielder and provide passing options from back. He is the one along with Davids who is going to take play against your midfield. I would assume its not very different from what Popescu is doing from your side.
Ocwirk is perfectly suitable for the role as well. Played as a CB and is considered one of the greatest defensive / B2B midfielder of all time.
I beg to differ. Platini with no one minding him will tear you a new one. The worst thing you can do is have Davids chasing danger because Platini will just one-two him into a headless chicken.
I have a lot of time for Davids and think Modric will struggle to contain him but that instruction looks off to me.
Again, those two wingers wouldn't be attacking when I have the ball.
But Ocwirk is minding him as the holder. Davids is going to help defensively when we don't have the ball its not really very complicated instruction.
A bit of a mystery for me, have constantly seen him in a lot of lists but only watched him in the WC games where he looked quite poor.
He isn't defensively capable to come near Platini which is pretty clear from most of his profiles, not to mention Platini played in an era with much higher tempo and intensity. That should be the primary requirement of a midfielder in that role which here comes across as a weakness especially when I'm on the counter.
Does anyone think Ocwirk is a good fit defensively vs Platini?
The era thing is a red herring because if thats the case then I guess Players like Monti and Varela would also be out of their depth. In his era he is considered probably the greatest center half along with Bozsik and Cajkovski so I am sure he can do the job. The mismatch is the same as Cruyff vs Popescu. Popescu is getting help from Scirea and Ocwirk is getting help from Davids.
You just literally said it would be stupid to paint Ocwirk as the one battling with Platini, now he is minding him as the holder.
Not sure about Ernst but I'm
It's what I wrote?
They will have lightning quick smooth transitions from back to front, again similar to the current Madrid team that is multiple playmakers and outlets. They can release the ball either out wide or lob it up to Vieri with ADP and Platini to chase the spoils.
Scirea and Platini played for the same team that dominated Europe playing the same tactics. Again, an intangible factor that would be immense in this game. And with Popescu, Scirea driving forward and kickstarting counters is a brilliant weapon which again he made a career out of, as one of the greatest ever no less.
The mismatch in terms of chemistry, cohesiveness and players who come from the same school of thought is quite visible here. On one side I have constructed a side where majority of the core will be perfectly at home in these conditions and bring the best out of them while the other cannot boast of an understanding anywhere near that while having a couple of questionable choices.
As I said it would be stupid if he is the only one minding Platini and that he is getting help from Davids. How is that not very clear from the team instructions. Ocwirk is the holder and Davids is defensive B2B.You just literally said it would be stupid to paint Ocwirk as the one battling with Platini, now he is minding him as the holder.
Not sure about Ernst but I'm
The difference is Scirea comes out in support in a free/spare role, Davids leaves Modric on the loose.
But I don't have anyone in a 1v1, I have a deep 5-man defense with two midfielders who aren't going to be passengers in defense with Platini and Del Piero providing the first line of defense.
Even if Cruyff turns Popescu he'll have two other to steal the ball off him. Ocwirk misses Platini and it's game over. What are his physical credentials that are important against a team breaking with purpose on the counter through multiple channels?
Well, no, in fairness you would need Boniek at the expense of Amoros.
Also something that always gets lost but I will mention it again - while playing against a front two with two CBs you will always need help from your DMs or a fullback to cover. If Vogts gets stretched by Evra that defense is in severe danger of getting caught in a 2v2 or 3v3. With those players in attack, I won't rule out a decent chance being carved out.
Here I dont know if Ocwirk has any room to drop deep and help out the CBs given he is minding Platini. That would be a big worry if I were Tuppet with the lack of defensive support from midfield against my front two + the two midfielders going forward + the wingbacks out wide.
Here I dont know if Ocwirk has any room to drop deep and help out the CBs given he is minding Platini. That would be a big worry if I were Tuppet with the lack of defensive support from midfield against my front two + the two midfielders going forward + the wingbacks out wide.
I get why you keep pushing the yours being perfectly cohesive side while mine is a bunch of players narrative. But I would just like to mention that my team is playing in fairly regular 4-2-3-1 formation with great players in all the position and all of them are playing in their preferred position. I don't see any reason for why they would not perform with each other. A great poacher pinning the centerbacks, 2 fantastic wingers, one all time great playmaker, 2 defensively robust midfielders and a great back 4. Its really simple and I am yet to see an argument on why it won't work.
I have already answered this, but you are making a lot of assumption in Evra stretching Vogts. On the other side how does Bergomi deal with Boniek + Zambrotta stretching him wide and Cruyff and RVN lurking in the inside left and middle. I daresay Boniek troubling Bergomi when Amoros has gone up high is a more likely scenario than Evra stretching Vogts.
It's not terrible but doesn't come near mine in those factors. ADP and Vieri played together, Platini and Scirea played together. All of them Serie A veterans with this being pretty much a Serie A homage setup. Those are clearly defined roles in key areas which is bound to make a difference. It's like having Xavi in a 442 with good players but not from a tiki taka school vs Xavi in a 433 with a proper Barca core around him. A quick look on the both sides simply shows how mine has a consistency about it, it's almost a Juventus-fest going on in there.
And I still disagree on the RvN role which is has been criticised by others. Even if it's debatable it's a farcry from the natural fits on the other side.
Amoros is again an experienced wingback, his best being easily in that role. Bergomi is one of the greatest stoppers of all time, he can hold his own and Amoros will obviously track back Zambrotta, it's what a defender does.
The detail you keep on missing is I'm defending deep as a unit, you are defending against a rampaging counter attacking unit. We aren't on level pegging as far as defensive assignments and responsibility for individual players go. It's the advantage I get for fielding an extra defender.
That is weird because, Scirea must be leaving someone if he comes to support Popescu against Cruyff. If he comes forward to deal with Cruyff than you leave Boniek / Litti / RVN against Chiellini and Bergomi.