Dominoes draft: QF - Tuppet vs Moby

With players at their career peak, who would win?


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Enigma_87

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TEAM TUPPET

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VS

TEAM MOBY
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TACTICS TEAM TUPPET

Formation is straightforward 4-2-3-1.

The roles are simple enough and most players should be familiar to forum so I won't spend too much time on it as I want to spend more time on Ocwirk because he is probably the least recognizable player in my team.

Cruyff is the heartbeat of the team as main playmaker and secondary goal scorer.
He is surrounded by 3 exceptional attackers, RVN is the poacher whose job is to get the ball in the net. Boniek provides incredible work rate, directness and movement on the left side while Littbarski with his dribbling and crossing would be more of a provider from the right side.

Davids and Ocwirk gives the attack a solid platform to work on. Davids is more defensive b2b player while Ocwirk is combination of deep lying playmaker and defensive midfielder. Ocwirk would be the holder staying disciplined in his position while Davids would cover every inch of the pitch with his incredible stamina.

On defensive side we have our big improvement where Maldini replaces Thiago Silva. Maldini would be more of a stopper while Blanc the ball playing defender, obviously both were fantastic on the ball. Vogts would be a conservative right back most likely not facing any out and out left winger he would tuck in and form an excellent defensive trio of Maldini / Blanc / Vogts which should be able to handle even the very best attackers. This in turn allows Zambrotta to rampage up and down the left side. Finally in Thibaut Courtois I have an excellent shot stopper.

Alright so in last game there were a couple of points raised, which I would like to clarify.

1. Ocwirk - Ocwirk is part of a midfield that has the task of contending with great Platini and so its important that his role and quality is conveyed in the write up. First question raised was of his position, he is mostly mentioned as an attacking center half and that seem to be distorting the perception. I tried to clarify in this post that center half would most closely resemble the modern DM position or even ball playing defender. Here's a very good Guardian article about this topic- https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/2009/apr/22/where-have-box-to-box-midfielders-gone
From the article


Another way of looking at it would be other players that were called center half around the same time. in 1954 Kicker made a world XI -


As you can see the other players that Ocwirk had to compete with in the same position were Bozsik and Cajkovski which should give some idea of his role on the field.

Second question was about his quality, he is considered second greatest Austrian player ever, received 31st ranking in best European player from IFFHS and was one of two Austrians to be selected in world cup all star team. He was selected as captain of rest of the world XI two times, which was considered a great honor. Also just to get an idea of how he is rated in football community, here are a few rankings -

This ranks him as 8th greatest central midfielder.
Here he is ranked as 10th best central midfielder
This rates him as the 4th best defensive midfielder.
This is an unranked list of greatest B2B midfielders.

It should be clear that I am not suggesting that these ranks to be taken on face value, but its clear these guys have put a lot of effort in this and that he is very highly rated by almost all 3rd party sources. Him and Davids is a brilliant midfield both defensively and attacking and can go toe to toe with Platini.

2. RVN / Cruyff - Nistelrooy as classic number 9 seem not to fit the mould of fluid total football that Cruyff was famous for. But for the purpose of my tactics RVN fits perfectly, I have maintained that Cruyff was first and foremost a playmaker and would have played as number 10 throughout his career if Netherlands had a good goal scorer. Secondly RVN with his impeccable off the ball movement creates a lot of space for the 3 behind him, all of whom can play on either side and through the middle. I am expecting a lot of good interchange behind RVN. Finally Cruyff himself was a big fan of Romario who while more skill was a similar type of player. A poacher is exactly what I need to convert the service I am getting from the 5 midfielders.

A small point is on Maldini in particular and my defensive set up in general. While Maldini was an elegant defender he was not really a sweeper/libero kind. He was mostly a stopper and thus formed a quality partnership with Nesta. He was a no nonsense defender who was just very good with ball his feet but not someone who would build attack from back. His partnership with Blanc here has everything, Blanc was imperious in air and was a great passer from back. While Maldini was fast and tough tackler. They cover each other well, but throw in Vogts as another uncomprosmising defender on the other side of Blanc and the whole defensive set up really work very well.


TACTICS TEAM MOBY

We are playing a standard 5-3-2 formation based on an unbreakable defensive line, a grand mix of tactical and technical midfield, an absolute genius running the offense supported by a deadly forward line.

In goal is the incomparable Sepp Maier, the legendary German goalkeeper and one of the best ever at that.

Watertight defensive line led by the defensive general Gaetano Scirea bringing in tremendous presence at the back and organising the defense with his leadership skills and providing that touch of genius in defense, a man absolutely crucial for that defense to be at their best, not to mention his unrivalled ability to distribute the ball from defense or carry it forward. Flanking him are two absolutely uncompromising defenders comprising the Italian no nonsense defensive rock Giorgio Chiellini and one of the greatest out and out stoppers ever in Guiseppe Bergomi. Both the CBs are perfectly capable of defending both in the middle and covering for the wingbacks out wide naturally, make it a sound tactical setup.

The all important wingbacks are two French phenominons - the unmatched two way game of Manuel Amoros and the outstanding work animal Patrice Evra. The two wingbacks are perfect in the roles assigned to them, Amoros being a massive weapon both in defense and attack on the right while Evra who constantly provided width for us during our great run and at his peak was a colossus at the back due to his pace, stamina and concentration.

The midfield comprises of the Romanian legend Gheorghe Popescu partnering the all round midfield general Luka Modric. In Popescu we have the perfect midfield-defense hybrid who would be class at dropping into defense and allowing Scirea to impact the game on the ball which Luka's work rate, stamina, close control technique and outstanding creative passing would make it a well rounded unit.

Completing the midfield is none other than the unparalleled goalscoring creative genius Michel Platini. With the incredible platform behind him he will be at the heart of the game bringing in all time great levels of creativity, passing both long and short and an elite goalscorer all wrapped in one package. To further his strengths, he is absolutely at home in playing in a back 5 formation while being the primary threat in attack and taking that responsibility at the highest stage.

Completing the team is the deadly Italian duo of Alessandro Del Piero and Christian Vieri. Two forwards playing in a very 'Italian' setup something which they are most used to in as well as two forwards that make a highly complimentary pair with Del Piero being the free roaming forward while Vieri takes his role as the battering ram up front bringing in top quality finishing.

Key Points:
  • A combative defensive line that will get stuck in and provide a massive guard for the goalie.
  • A powerful midfield unit making it a massive back 7 to break up. Popescu's ability to drop into defense vital to release Scirea.
  • Incredible ability on the ball at the back with all three of Scirea, Amoros and Evra capable of distributing it forward and carrying it when needed.
  • An all time great orchestrator at the heart of the game.
  • Two great forwards leading the attack complimenting each other perfectly with Del Piero playing off Vieri.
  • The familiarity of key players in Scirea, Platini, Del Piero and Vieri in their respective roles with regards to the formation that would further allow them to be in their element.
 
Nice graphics Moby. Wonder how the others rate Popescu and Orwick? Who's the better player?
 
A little preview.


:lol:

Love these anecdotal clips. Defenders really do get a raw deal when things like these happen, clips like these get famous while the number of times a defender stops an attacker rarely gets any credit.
 
:lol:

Love these anecdotal clips. Defenders really do get a raw deal when things like these happen, clips like these get famous while the number of times a defender stops an attacker rarely gets any credit.
That was tongue in cheek bro. I agree with you and have fought against that for ages.
 
Nice graphics Moby. Wonder how the others rate Popescu and Orwick? Who's the better player?
Cheers.

Different players as far as I know. Popescu is an excellent passer in his own right however he is on the pitch primarily for his defensive skills, ability to cover Modric and drop into defense giving Scirea the license to forage forward.
 
Nice graphics Moby. Wonder how the others rate Popescu and Orwick? Who's the better player?

I'd rate Ocwirk higher. In his own era, he was rated amongst if not the best wing half of his time. Combined defensive solidity and playmaking ability in the heart of midfield. Popescu is talented, but for me his credentials aren't as solid as Ocwirk.
 
Find it hard to see how this game plays out in my head. I'd like to hear abit more from the managers of how they see battles in certain areas of the pitch panning out
 
FFS this is impossible to call. Splitting hairs really.

Only thing I can think of is Scirea and Popescu jointly minding Cruyff should be safer than Ocwirk on Platini. But then, Maldini is on the pitch.
 
My first impression, Moby is better equipped to cope up with Tuppet's threat especially in the central areas.
 
I'd rate Ocwirk higher. In his own era, he was rated amongst if not the best wing half of his time. Combined defensive solidity and playmaking ability in the heart of midfield. Popescu is talented, but for me his credentials aren't as solid as Ocwirk.
Cheers, i think that helps Moby deal with Cruyff better with Popescu more defensive, will wait to see what @Tuppet has to say about how he's going to deal with Platini.
 
Interesting.

Maldini was a massive upgrade for Tuppet but I Courtouis a level below Maier at least. Tough match. Leaning towards the side with more synergy at the moment.
 
In a game of tight margins a full-sized Sepp Maier is a match-winner for me.
 
Think moby’s defence is super solid. Three Italian stalwarts in defence will be enough for RvN and Cruyff. Tuppet has a good CB combo but even with Maldini it’s second best. Maldini was a top CB but he still comes second best to scirea and Bergomi imo. I think Blanc and Chiellini are around the same level.

Moby may have an edge in attack too. Platini kind of negates Cruyff and Del Piero and Vieri are a great combo I think.
 
FFS this is impossible to call. Splitting hairs really.

Only thing I can think of is Scirea and Popescu jointly minding Cruyff should be safer than Ocwirk on Platini. But then, Maldini is on the pitch.
Davids is also important here, he was far more defensively solid than Modric and would totally help out Ocwrik when defending against Platini.
 
Also yes Moby is playing with 3 defenders, it would seem that he cover my threats more than I do his. But nobody is even mentioning Boniek and Littbarski, both of whom I would rate higher than Del Piero. Boniek in particular with Zambrotta supporting would have great time against Moby's defense, creating overloads and pulling defenders. Cruyff is not my only threat by any means. Another thing is in Boniek / Cruyff / Littbarski I have far more pace in my attack and that would really matter if and when Moby's fullback are caught too high while trying to provide width.
 
Find it hard to see how this game plays out in my head. I'd like to hear abit more from the managers of how they see battles in certain areas of the pitch panning out
The idea for me is to try and exploit the wings which is usually the bane of 3-5-2 formations. Firstly against only one out and out striker the 3 CBs are usually at a disadvantage not only this means overload in an area where there is not that many numbers needed it also sometimes result in a confusion on who is going to pick the center forward.

The overload in defensive areas give the advantage to us in other areas esp in wings. I get that Scirea's presence would compensate that to some extent, but Moby's set up is primarily a counter attacking one. This gives initiative to Cruyff & co and thats how he liked it. Its important for us to be solid centrally and Davids / Ocwirk / Maldini / Blanc with Vogts supporting is a central spine that can stifle Moby's attack. With little wide threat from Moby's team I think we cover his threats pretty well.

On the other hand we would definitely try and play game in wide areas and create overloads on sides. Whenver Moby's wingbacks are caught upfield this is going to cause one of the central defenders to be pulled in fullback positions where a simple cross would send an attacker one on one with a defender. And when attackers are as deadly as RVN and Cruyff those one on ones are going to usually result in goals.
 
Also yes Moby is playing with 3 defenders, it would seem that he cover my threats more than I do his.

Wrong way to look at things. That 5-3-2 defensively is a bit over packed when dealing with single striker setups.
Most of the creativity at the opponent end comes from the wings and a No 10. Don't like the 5-3-2 at all against a well built 4-2-3-1.

On the other hand, Maldini and Blanc just look in place to deal with Vieri+ADP.

Platini might have a bit of joy but I like Davids+Ocwirk quite well too. Ocwirk based on what I have read.
Tilting towards the devil cnut Tuppet for now.
 
I've gone for Tuppet but it's very, very close to be honest. Both sides have cracking defences and Mobys back 3 and keeper will be a nightmare to come up against. The battle for influence on the game between Platini and Cruyff will be fascinating but I just feel that this game will be won from the flanks. I see Tuppets side as the slightly more adventurous and think Boniek, Vogts, Zambrotta and Littbarski will be a bit more effective than Evra, Amoros and Del Piero drifting.
 
Also yes Moby is playing with 3 defenders, it would seem that he cover my threats more than I do his. But nobody is even mentioning Boniek and Littbarski, both of whom I would rate higher than Del Piero. Boniek in particular with Zambrotta supporting would have great time against Moby's defense, creating overloads and pulling defenders. Cruyff is not my only threat by any means. Another thing is in Boniek / Cruyff / Littbarski I have far more pace in my attack and that would really matter if and when Moby's fullback are caught too high while trying to provide width.
Different players for different systems. Both belong in your team and are well utilised, but neither would start ahead of Del Piero in that front three.
 
Tuppet has a good CB combo but even with Maldini it’s second best. Maldini was a top CB but he still comes second best to scirea and Bergomi imo. I think Blanc and Chiellini are around the same level.

I have always been of the view that Maldini was better as a left back so kind of agree with you there.

Disagree hugely on Blanc being at around the same level of Chiellini - I think he's significantly better and personally I preferred Blanc over Desailly at the time. He was one of the outstanding centre halves from that decade.
 
Sure, but who tracks Modric then?
He is not going to man mark Modric. The whole point of Davids' stamina and pace is that he would try and recover the ball all over the pitch. When Platini has the ball and looks threatening Davids would get back and try and tackle him. Same with say Boniek / Littbarski / Zambrotta all of who had incredible work rates. We definitely don't want a situation where Platini is see battling with Ocwirk because that would stupid of us to do that.

Different players for different systems. Both belong in your team and are well utilised, but neither would start ahead of Del Piero in that front three.
Sure won't start in that team because its not their best position but that doesn't mean they are not better players.
Black flanked by Vogts and Maldini makes for a compact defence to handle Moby's central threat.
Whats up with your voting man :lol:
Who tracks Evra then?
Littbarski I suppose. Not that Evra is that big a threat that I am going to put Vogts on him.
 
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Littbarski seem slightly underrated, so a little bit on him. The demon of Bavaria was an incredible dribbler. Possibly the best German dribbler ever if I am not forgetting someone. At the same time he also had fantastic work rate and was a tenacious player. Here is an article which expressed this more eloquently than I ever could - https://thesefootballtimes.co/2017/06/08/pierre-littbarski-german-footballs-glorious-anomaly/

Few Excerpts -
The first minute of the World Cup final encapsulated everything I loved about the German number 7. Footballing convention states that in the edgy opening stages of a high-pressure game, it should be a time to keep possession, for a team and its players to patiently feel their way into the match. Not for Littbarski.

First, he slide-tackled Marco Tardelli in the German half before retrieving the ball. There was nothing but the touchline tight to his left and a glut of Italian players in front of him. Instantly, he flicked the ball deftly over Claudio Gentile’s boot before skipping past the retreating Tardelli. Suddenly, he was in the Italian third and – after a neat exchange of passes with Fischer – he cut the ball onto his left foot and fired a shot from 25 yards that was saved by Dino Zoff.

His tenacity to win the ball, his desire to get forward and his creative intent was all captured in 15 seconds of football. And it all came in the first exchanges of the biggest match of the 22-year-old’s life. But he was never one to be daunted by the big occasion.

He came of age during the 1982 World Cup in Spain, peaking (as Germans are wont to do) in the knockout stages. Littbarski’s zenith was perhaps the second-round victory over the host nation. A poacher’s goal after a Luis Arconada mistake was followed by an impudent piece of skill to set up the second – a 180-degree swivel that made Santiago Urquiaga look like a skittish kitten chasing a bee, before side-footing to Fischer to tap in.

Soon after came the epic semi-final against France in which Littbarski eclipsed even the opposition’s legendary midfield, drilling in the opener before contributing to both other German goals in the frenetic 3-3 draw. He even netted a penalty in the victorious shoot-out.

For all the gifts Germany has given to football – the imperiousness of Franz Beckenbauer, the clinical finishing of Gerd Müller, the vision of Günter Netzer, the competitive qualities of Lothar Matthäus – it has produced few players like Pierre Littbarski. A diminutive figure who through a combination of impish brilliance and fearlessness, lit up even the cagiest encounters with his determination to terrorise the game’s more rugged defenders. The epitome of grace over power and joy over cynicism.

I suppose most people have seen at least some of his play but just in case -



Evra is not going to have an easy time here.
 
Not that Evra is that big a threat that I am going to put Vogts on him.
In offense he can be a game changer if not tracked properly, especially with Del Piero to link with on that side which was Evra's forte.

We are talking about a peak Evra here who was a tireless machine and if Litti is tracking him all game then he'll get tired. I don't think he will the whole time either so he and Amoros are vital here in terms of stretching play and create spaces for my central core.
 
He is not going to man mark Modric. The whole point of Davids' stamina and pace is that he would try and recover the ball all over the pitch. When Platini has the ball and looks threatening Davids would get back and try and tackle him. Same with say Boniek / Littbarski / Zambrotta all of who had incredible work rates. We definitely don't want a situation where Platini is see battling with Ocwirk because that would stupid of us to do that.
The problem with that is it isn't just Platini but him and Modric, both of whole have great work ethic as well great technique going forward, and my team has incredible ball players from back to front which means they won't be pressed by someone like Davids and will easily find each other. Modric especially will resist Davids passing and be a huge part to play in the quick transitions which is his bread and butter.

Also, Del Piero exploiting the space between your defense and midfield lines would be deadly. You don't have a player who is anchoring the midfield and there will always spaces in the hole to exploit which is what ADP is fantastic at doing especially with Platini and Modric building up the play.

And individually Davids isn't going to win the ball a lot from Platini either as good as he is. Platini specialised in counter attacking and would be at home in terms of running into that space. That Modric-Platini-Del Piero creative and goalscoring tandem is a big advantage for me.
 
As far as the defenses go,

I have the best centre-back on the pitch. As good as Maldini is he is an all time left-back and of course a very good centre back but Scirea easily ranks higher than him in that position especially as the setup is made for Scirea to shine while in case of Maldini it isn't completely natural for him. He mainly played CB when someone was injured or during the latter stage in his career, his peak was definitely at left-back.

My defense isn't just filled with top individual quality but it will be difficult to find players better suited tactically in those roles, and they just make a beautiful 5-man backline and not a mashup of defenders.

The all Italian back three will work with incredible understanding coming from the same school of thought and would be tough as nails to break down. In a counter attacking setup, those 5 with the midfield three all dropping deep is simply unbreakable.
 
Also in terms of the two attacks, we already covered why Cruyff and Nistelrooy isn't an ideal pairing, both excelling in very different tactics and with Cruyff you ideally need a more dynamic and all round forward who could link up with him and make a fluid attack. RvN was a great fox in the box but a bit too static and limited for someone who would bring the best out of Cruyff.

On the other side the balance of that front three couldn't be better. Again, all three belonging to the Serie A mentality and style of play so will be a lot more cohesive and likely to combine well, and as far as playing styles and positions are concerned they are a perfectly constructed front three with Platini as the AM, Del Piero as the SS and Vieri as the CF. Vieri's battering ram and annoying presence up front will occupy those CBs neither of him is a proper stopper to mark him, and with the service from the middle and out wide he is the perfect goal scorer in that team.

The front three are also all full of goals and score in almost any way, including Platini's deadly free kick taking. Del Piero's curling efforts from the edge of the box with that space between midfield and defense is an absolute weapon here. And not to mention Platini's unstoppable runs into the box and the likes of Modric and Del Piero are a great set support for him and can create the chances for him.

All in all my team doesn't just boast individual quality but has the attributes to work with perfect chemistry and synergy both at the back and front which would matter in breaking such a tight game.
 
Cruyff honestly seems shoehorned in this team, it isn't a team that is created around him which is understandable as this draft wasn't great for planning but it's a big concern when the opposition is using their best players (Scirea, Platini, Del Piero) perfectly allowing them to be in their element and not asking anything they haven't done a million times before in similar settings.
 
In offense he can be a game changer if not tracked properly, especially with Del Piero to link with on that side which was Evra's forte.

We are talking about a peak Evra here who was a tireless machine and if Litti is tracking him all game then he'll get tired. I don't think he will the whole time either so he and Amoros are vital here in terms of stretching play and create spaces for my central core.
We'd have to disagree that Evra is a game changing attacking presence in all time context. Also weirdly it seem like Littbarski is the defender and Evra is the attacker when its the other way round. Surely Litti would need to keep track of by Evra and I doubt he would be doing too much attacking. Del Piero if he connects with Evra would surely be taken care of Vogts, he is perfect for him as he would look to cut in and Vogts is already tucking in. On the other side you have the same problems with Amoros need to contend with both Boniek and Zambo.

But the most important aspect here is Cruyff and how he was very comfortable in both wings, that and his pace is his major advantage over Platini. Since we are going to try and exploit the wings and I can easily see a scenario where Amoros or Evra need to contend with Boniek / Cruyff or Littbarski / Cruyff. These mismatches can only be created when your attack has pace and work rate in spades. And this is exactly where my attack bar RVN shine.