Dominoes draft: QF - Enigma_87 vs Lord SInister

[Moby]

But Messi won't get all that freedom I'm not sure how you keep coming to that conclusion. I don't think Keane/Tigana will boss a midfield of Matthaus and Rijkaard. We will win the midfield battle and control most of the game. Maradona and Messi will have much less time on the ball than in tiki taka set up. Especially Messi will have even less considering he's in auxiliary role to Maradona and Maradona is the main playmaker.

The tiki taka argument goes out of the window when Messi showed just how devastating he is on the counter under Lucho where him, Suarez and Neymar formed one of the greatest front 3s ever. Their midfield was bang average and didnt dominate others.

Messi can run towards against a wall of players, silly to think having acres of space will make it tougher for him, if that even is a scenario here.

 

[Enigma_87]

It's not like Michael Laudrup is being asked to score goals.

Messi is arguably the greatest goalscorer of all time. It's another thing that he's also the best playmaker in the world along with that, but his playmaking is important in getting others like Neymar and all into the game not for his own game.

Plus Maradona isn't a ball hog, he's an elite playmaker who would constantly and happily provide insane through balls to Messi who can go on insane dribbling runs from anywhere on the pitch. Rijkaard wont allow him to drop from midfield but there's sweet feckall he can do when Maradona finds Messi 25 yards from goal with a straight run at those CBs. It's something that I can see happening very often in the game and that's a killer.

Well that's the thing. LS has instructed Messi to drop deep whilst our instructions is to have Matthaus and Rijkaard behind the ball when defending. You keep implying that Messi will be constantly between Rijkaard and our CB's which clearly won't be true in this matchup.

 

[Enigma_87]

The tiki taka argument goes out of the window when Messi showed just how devastating he is on the counter under Lucho where him, Suarez and Neymar formed one of the greatest front 3s ever. Their midfield was bang average and didnt dominate others.

Messi can run towards against a wall of players, silly to think having acres of space will make it tougher for him, if that even is a scenario here.

And we saw what happened when their "average midfield" got dominated against PSG and Messi suffered less time on the ball:

What a mess Lionel Messi suffers a nine-year low number of touches for Barcelona in their humiliating 4-0 defeat at Paris Saint-Germain
Angel di Maria, Edinson Cavani and Julian Draxler put the Catalan giants to the sword as their Champions League dream teeters on the edge

LIONEL MESSI suffered undoubtedly one of the biggest no-show performances of his career last night as Barcelona were obliterated by Paris Saint-Germain.

The five-time Ballon d'Or winner could be seen jogging around the pitch after losing the ball last night as he gave the ball away and simply failed to connect with his team-mates.

OptaJoe
1 - Lionel Messi has failed to register a single touch in the opposite box in a #UCL game for the first time this season. Disconnection.

11:47 PM - Feb 14, 2017

Messi was far from the only Barcelona player to have an absolute stinker at the Parc des Princes - but given the heights he has scaled in the Champions League, he was undoubtedly the biggest underperformer.

Keep up to date with ALL the Barcelona news, gossip and transfers on our club page

It could not have been a starker contrast to the match played by Angel di Maria - as the former Real Madrid and Manchester United forward terrorised the Barcelona defence.

His Argentina team-mate surged forward with electric speed and sucked in ball-watching Barca defenders as he netted a free-kick and later another curling beauty.

But as for Messi, 29, the fact that he failed to register a single touch in the opposition's penalty area said everything you needed to know about the quality of his game.

As Opta stats have shown, if that is the case, it usually means that the Barcelona metronome is not ticking as it usually should be.

Messi played 37 passes in the game and only 28 of them were successful. He twice gave the ball away in the centre circle, an uncommon sight for the Argentinian superstar.

Meanwhile it was Andres Iniesta that got hauled off my Luis Enrique, with Barca already four goals down.

Of all the incredible things the Spaniard has achieved in his career, that must have surely been an all-time low moment.

 

[Jim Beam]

Spoiler: Defensive Tactics to handle the double trouble of Zioc and Di Stefano

Our central defense and the midfield will be instructed to be ensuring that appropriate distances provide compactness and restrict the Zico/Di Stefano from exploiting space in-between the lines. and thankfully I have been blessed with two central midfielders who are top fighters aside being technically great midfielders, who dominate and destroy and mostly importantly they love to defend, they will not look forced into defending. And I have been lucky to get a defensive combination which has the best sweeper/libero out there and two great man markers with Forster being in the top bracket of being the stoppers and a one man army Japp Stam.

Got it. Thanks.

Just one remark. I've seen here being implied that Enigma's combo in Rijkaard and Lothar will have a hard time trying to keep GOAT's on his side and will get outnumbered. The same goes here, dropping Di Stefano will get him that extra man in the midfield and even ability to control it. I see Keane and Tigane having trouble with it and question marks in terms how much they will provide going forward.

 

[Moby]

And we saw what happened when their "average midfield" got dominated against PSG and Messi suffered less time on the ball:

Thought they scored 6 goals in the second leg?

If you want to look at one of Messi's poor games, then do the same for Campbell and Ayala . Messi will still land on much higher ground.

 

[Lord SInister]

And we saw what happened when their "average midfield" got dominated against PSG and Messi suffered less time on the ball:


LIONEL MESSI suffered undoubtedly one of the biggest no-show performances of his career last night as Barcelona were obliterated by Paris Saint-Germain.

The five-time Ballon d'Or winner could be seen jogging around the pitch after losing the ball last night as he gave the ball away and simply failed to connect with his team-mates.

OptaJoe
1 - Lionel Messi has failed to register a single touch in the opposite box in a #UCL game for the first time this season. Disconnection.

11:47 PM - Feb 14, 2017

Messi was far from the only Barcelona player to have an absolute stinker at the Parc des Princes - but given the heights he has scaled in the Champions League, he was undoubtedly the biggest underperformer.

Keep up to date with ALL the Barcelona news, gossip and transfers on our club page

It could not have been a starker contrast to the match played by Angel di Maria - as the former Real Madrid and Manchester United forward terrorised the Barcelona defence.

His Argentina team-mate surged forward with electric speed and sucked in ball-watching Barca defenders as he netted a free-kick and later another curling beauty.

But as for Messi, 29, the fact that he failed to register a single touch in the opposition's penalty area said everything you needed to know about the quality of his game.

As Opta stats have shown, if that is the case, it usually means that the Barcelona metronome is not ticking as it usually should be.

Messi played 37 passes in the game and only 28 of them were successful. He twice gave the ball away in the centre circle, an uncommon sight for the Argentinian superstar.

Meanwhile it was Andres Iniesta that got hauled off my Luis Enrique, with Barca already four goals down.

Of all the incredible things the Spaniard has achieved in his career, that must have surely been an all-time low moment.

my midfield is not average though.
Tigana-Keane with Maradona is not what you will call an average one.

 

[Enigma_87]

Thought they scored 6 goals in the second leg?

If you want to look at one of Messi's poor games, then do the same for Campbell and Ayala . Messi will still land on much higher ground.

Same can be said about Stam and Ziege really, especially the latter one.

my midfield is not average though.
Tigana-Keane with Maradona is not what you will call an average one.

Neither is Barca's I was replying to Moby's comment a bit in jest.

Duty calls for the next 4-5 hours so good luck mate I'll be back in the evening to address other points hope you won't run away with it by that time.

 

[Moby]

This is why I thought LS' best pick in the draft wasn't Messi or Maradona, but Beckenbauer. GOATs both in defense and attack, almost impossible to accomplish.

Unless it's @antohan stitching teams up left right and center and ending up with a team of Pele, Maradona and Beckenbauer.
Credit goes to the Carlos Quirez behind the scenes who joined him and instantly made him a champion.

 

[Lord SInister]

Duty calls for the next 4-5 hours so good luck mate I'll be back in the evening to address other points hope you won't run away with it by that time.

draft is more important.
I am here in work, igoring all my works and drafting

 

[Moby]

Same can be said about Stam and Ziege really, especially the latter one.

I was agreeing on you with that one until LS came up with the stat of them facing 5 times and Figo not winning even once.

And like mentioned before, Ayala is in the area of maximum risk, there's no way to mitigate that.

 

[antohan]

@Enigma_87 that's a 4-2-4 if I ever saw one.

I see the CB pair thing has been done to death. Not sure anyone could realistically have better screening to deal with Diego. Ayala and Campbell are fine for the sort of challenge Kocsis will poise, but Messi will be trouble. I can see LS scoring a couple of goals, granted.

Would like to see more discussion on what's going on at the other end. AdS looks ideal not just in attack but to neuter Kaiser's influence. And once you wipe that out the defence, while strong, looks pretty useless for transitions. I can see that hardworking front four recovering a lot of the ball high up (danger) and, with the outball compromised, a lot of ball punting upfield, which won't suit the midgets particularly well.

 

[Enigma_87]

I was agreeing on you with that one until LS came up with the stat of them facing 5 times and Figo not winning even once.

And like mentioned before, Ayala is in the area of maximum risk, there's no way to mitigate that.

They played when Figo was far from his peak tho - a good 2-3(even 4) years away from it in fact and was just settling in a Barca team that was on the wane(after the Dream team) in a complete overhaul changing all of their personnel.

We're not fielding the 23 old Figo but the peak one so that's a bit of a moot point.

 

[Moby]

AdS looks ideal not just in attack but to neuter Kaiser's influence.

Can see that going both ways. Beckenbauer is perfect to track Di Stefano dropping back and Di Stefano is perfect to track Beckenbauer advancing.

It's possible we see a total cancellation as it was in the 1966 WC.

 

[Moby]

They played when Figo was far from his peak tho - a good 2-3(even 4) years away from it in fact and was just settling in a Barca team that was on the wane(after the Dream team) in a complete overhaul changing all of their personnel.

We're not fielding the 23 old Figo but the peak one so that's a bit of a moot point.

I don't go by anecdotes either and still think Figo will do well here, but probably not as if Ziege doesn't exist. And again as a wingback his defensive duties are anyway taken away to an extent, but Figo will have a good game here yes.

But then you have Figo have a good game and Messi having a good game, different levels of damage.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Enigma_87 that's a 4-2-4 if I ever saw one.

I see the CB pair thing has been done to death. Not sure anyone could realistically have better screening to deal with Diego. Ayala and Campbell are fine for the sort of challenge Kocsis will poise, but Messi will be trouble. I can see LS scoring a couple of goals, granted.

Would like to see more discussion on what's going on at the other end. AdS looks ideal not just in attack but to neuter Kaiser's influence. And once you wipe that out the defence, while strong, looks pretty useless for transitions. I can see that hardworking front four recovering a lot of the ball high up (danger) and, with the outball compromised, a lot of ball punting upfield, which won't suit the midgets particularly well.

Yes, exactly what I keep referring to in the last two pages but no one seems to even mention it

Can see that going both ways. Beckenbauer is perfect to track Di Stefano dropping back and Di Stefano is perfect to track Beckenbauer advancing.

It's possible we see a total cancellation as it was in the 1966 WC.

Beckenbauer played in midfield with Schulz as a sweeper, here Beckenbauer is playing as a libero who is starting as behind the two stoppers - completely different scenarios.

LS from the off has Forster man marking the opposition forward so is not like you are describing it above.

 

[Moby]

Beckenbauer played in midfield with Schulz as a sweeper, here Beckenbauer is playing as a libero who is starting as behind the two stoppers - completely different scenarios.

Similarly he's against a centre forward here not a midfielder. They similarly fall in the same action area as he did with Charlton and both look set to face each other's strengths.

 

[Enigma_87]

I don't go by anecdotes either and still think Figo will do well here, but probably not as if Ziege doesn't exist. And again as a wingback his defensive duties are anyway taken away to an extent, but Figo will have a good game here yes.

But then you have Figo have a good game and Messi having a good game, different levels of damage.

But again Ziege is playing as a wing back so it's easier for Figo to catch him in possession rather than Messi being screened by two defensive monsters before even taking a chance at the CB's - completely different ball game...

 

[Moby]

But again Ziege is playing as a wing back so it's easier for Figo to catch him in possession rather than Messi being screened by two defensive monsters before even taking a chance at the CB's - completely different ball game...

The defensive monsters also have another guy from Argentina to screen. Both require being double teamed. Pick your poison.

 

[Moby]

Pretty obvious to me that the two DMs will have to handle Maradona primarily with Messi playing more as a forward and linking with Kocsis. Rijkaard will get the amount of time it takes for a Maradona pass to reach Messi and him setting up for a forward run.

 

[Enigma_87]

Similarly he's against a centre forward here not a midfielder. They similarly fall in the same action area as he did with Charlton and both look set to face each other's strengths.

Not at all. Beckenbauer was instructed to man mark Charlton.

For the final against England, Beckenbauer was deputed to man-mark Bobby Charlton and followed him all around Wembley. It was a battle of wits. Charlton was the player the Germans feared most and as Beckenbauer himself said years later: "England beat us in 1966 because Bobby Charlton was just a bit better than me."

If Beckenbauer is man marking Di Stefano is completely different game. This will nullify his effect on the midfield and we can control the center of the park. You can't have it both ways.

 

[Enigma_87]

Pretty obvious to me that the two DMs will have to handle Maradona primarily with Messi playing more as a forward and linking with Kocsis. Rijkaard will the amount of time it takes for a Maradona pass to reach Messi and him setting up for a forward run.

The defensive monsters also have another guy from Argentina to screen. Both require being double teamed. Pick your poison.

Both of them will be minding the two Argies. Matthaus - Maradona and Rijkaard - Messi as I've already mentioned. Both will be double teamed and we still have a spare man at the back with Kocsis being between the two CB's.

 

[Moby]

Not at all. Beckenbauer was instructed to man mark Charlton.



If Beckenbauer is man marking Di Stefano is completely different game. This will nullify his effect on the midfield and we can control the center of the park. You can't have it both ways.

I am aware. I was considering that scenario based on their styles of play, not saying it was a certainty.

Just as possible that they both get the better of each other despite being great fits to cancel out the other. So far both have been considered in terms of influencing the game which is fair enough. Makes for a better spectacle.

 

[Moby]

Both of them will be minding the two Argies. Matthaus - Maradona and Rijkaard - Messi as I've already mentioned. Both will be double teamed and we still have a spare man at the back with Kocsis being between the two CB's.

As if you can ever have a chance of containing Messi and Maradona with a 2v2. That's a 4 man job at the very least.

 

[Enigma_87]

I am aware. I was considering that scenario based on their styles of play, not saying it was a certainty.

Just as possible that they both get the better of each other despite being great fits to cancel out the other. So far both have been considered in terms of influencing the game which is fair enough. Makes for a better spectacle.

Yes, hence Di Stefano pulling the CB's out wide with Kalle and Zico running into pockets can have equally devastating effect. It's clearly not Beckenbauer minding him so I don't see the relevance with Charlton here.

As if you can ever have a chance of containing Messi and Maradona with a 2v2. That's a 4 man job at the very least.

And yet Zico, Kalle and AdS will be contained 1vs 1 on the other side?

What's the plan on Zico then? Without a designated marker and space between the two lines won't he be using his talents to the fullest? He ain't mug either...

 

[Moby]

And yet Zico, Kalle and AdS will be contained 1vs 1 on the other side?

I see 7 defensive players.

 

[Enigma_87]

I see 7 defensive players.

Behind the ball? With tactics like that Messi/Maradona won't even get half the time on the ball in the opposite end that you are thinking.

 

[Moby]

Behind the ball? With tactics like that Messi/Maradona won't even get half the time on the ball in the opposite end that you are thinking.

Maradona played in those tactics for his entire career.

 

[Enigma_87]

Maradona played in those tactics for his entire career.

And Messi didn't which is the main stick you are using to beat my CB's with

 

[Moby]

And Messi didn't which is the main stick you are using to beat my CB's with

Sometimes, and I would have given him that criticism if he was against CBs of better calibre, here all you need is Maradona playing in Messi behind the DMs and it's game over. I don't see Maradona failing to do that even when tightly marked (WC winning through ball to Burruchaga?) and I don't see Messi failing to torch that defense everytime he gets it. That's what really swings it here.

 

[Lord SInister]

Got it. Thanks.
Just one remark. I've seen here being implied that Enigma's combo in Rijkaard and Lothar will have a hard time trying to keep GOAT's on his side and will get outnumbered. The same goes here, dropping Di Stefano will get him that extra man in the midfield and even ability to control it. I see Keane and Tigane having trouble with it and question marks in terms how much they will provide going forward.

Spoiler: How to tackle the false 9 dilemma

see one important thing is playing with false 9 will mean as I have mentioned in my tactics that my team is strictly sticking to the structure of having to close down gaps sticking tight, forcing them to just play the ball side-ways without doing much, as long balls from his team will be well protected, given the height and aerial prowess of my team, which will also be pose a danger to him, as we can easily create counters after snatching the second balls from his long passes.
His wingers will need to be attacking high up the pitch, meaning my wing-backs can exploit that space to slip inside or stretch the play.

 

[Enigma_87]

Sometimes, and I would have given him that criticism if he was against CBs of better calibre, here all you need is Maradona playing in Messi behind the DMs and it's game over. I don't see Maradona failing to do that even when tightly marked (WC winning through ball to Burruchaga?) and I don't see Messi failing to torch that defense everytime he gets it. That's what really swings it here.

But that's the thing he won't get behind Rijkaard in that situation. With LS instructions Messi will drop deeper and we will have two lines of defence. Only Kocsis is between the CB's and DM's - not Messi mate. Essentially you are playing it in completely different scenario rather than how both managers has set up their teams..

 

[Lord SInister]

But that's the thing he won't get behind Rijkaard in that situation. With LS instructions Messi will drop deeper and we will have two lines of defence. Only Kocsis is between the CB's and DM's - not Messi mate. Essentially you are playing it in completely different scenario rather than how both managers has set up their teams..

Messi is instructed to get behind the lines of CBs and DM or edge of the DMs, and not far deep in the midfield. there is a big difference.

 

[Lord SInister]

ZIEGE WINNER OF THE EURO 1996



Christian Ziege was an attacking wingabck with deadly free kick skills who was part of a new generation along with Deisler, Klose, Ballack, and Metzelder after Germany's World Cup triumph of 1990. Ziege's career started promising - his runs down the left flank and free kicks especially dangerous - but after leaving Bayern, injuries made his career lost momentum, but for a time in the mid 90's Zeige was one the most talented players in the World. He gained international fame with his Mohawk at the 2002 World Cup.


England Vs Germany - European Cup Semifinal (26/06/1996)



European Footballer of the Year ("Ballon d'Or") 1996

1. Matthias Sammer Germany Borussia Dortmund 144 13 15 6 - 1 35
2. Ronaldo Luiz Nazario de Lima Brazil Internazionale 143 16 9 4 5 5 39 [see note]
3. Alan Shearer England Newcastle United 107 6 7 11 7 2 33 [see note]
4. Alessandro Del Piero Italy Juventus 69 4 6 5 4 2 21 [see note]
5. Jürgen Klinsmann Germany Bayern Munich 60 5 1 5 6 4 21
6. Davor Suker Croatia Real Madrid 38 1 1 5 4 6 17
7. Eric Cantona France Manchester United 24 - 3 1 4 1 9
8. Marcel Desailly France Milan AC 22 1 - 3 3 2 9
9. Youri Djorkaeff France Internazionale 20 1 2 - 3 1 7
10. Karel Poborsky Czech Republic Manchester United 15 - 2 2 - 1 5
11. Nwankwo Kanu Nigeria Internazionale 14 - - 1 5 1 7
12. George Weah Liberia Milan AC 13 - - 1 2 6 9 [see note]
13. Alen Boksic Croatia Juventus 12 1 - 2 - 1 4
Gabriel Batistuta Argentina Fiorentina 12 1 - 1 1 2 5
Andreas Köpke Germany Olympique Marseille 12 - 1 1 1 3 6
16. Fabrizio Ravanelli Italy Middlesbrough 9 - 2 - - 1 3
Predrag Mijatovic Yugoslavia Real Madrid 9 - 1 - 2 1 4
18. Didier Deschamps France Juventus 8 1 - - 1 1 3
19. Kubilay Turkyilmaz Switzerland Grasshoppers 5 1 - - - - 1
20. David Seaman England Arsenal 4 - 1 - - - 1
Raúl González Spain Real Madrid 4 - - 1 - 1 2
22. Paolo Maldini Italy Milan AC 3 - - 1 - - 1
Christian Ziege Germany Bayern Munich 3 - - 1 - - 1
Patrick Berger Czech Republic Liverpool 3 - - - 1 1 2
Trifon Ivanov Bulgaria Rapid Wien 3 - - - - 3 3
26. Radek Bejbl Czech Republic Atlético Madrid 2 - - - 1 - 1
Manuel Rui Costa Portugal Fiorentina 2 - - - 1 - 1
28. Ronald de Boer Netherlands Ajax 1 - - - - 1 1
Luis Figo Portugal FC Barcelona 1 - - - - 1 1
Brian Laudrup Denmark Glasgow Rangers 1 - - - - 1 1
Sergi Barjuan Spain FC Barcelona 1 - - - - 1 1
Zinedine Zidane France Juventus 1 - - - - 1 1

 

[Enigma_87]

see one important thing is playing with false 9 will mean as I have mentioned in my tactics that my team is strictly sticking to the structure of having to close down gaps sticking tight, forcing them to just play the ball side-ways without doing much, as long balls from his team will be well protected, given the height and aerial prowess of my team, which will also be pose a danger to him, as we can easily create counters after snatching the second balls from his long passes.
His wingers will need to be attacking high up the pitch, meaning my wing-backs can exploit that space to slip inside or stretch the play.

But that plays exactly the way it would suit us best. If you are sticking players tight on Di Stefano it's easier to pull them around and make space for others.

If you want to push him to the side your CB's will have to follow them and we'll get plenty of joy there.

 

[Moby]

But that's the thing he won't get behind Rijkaard in that situation. With LS instructions Messi will drop deeper and we will have two lines of defence. Only Kocsis is between the CB's and DM's - not Messi mate. Essentially you are playing it in completely different scenario rather than how both managers has set up their teams..

His offensive formation in the OP says otherwise, and has Messi up front alongside Kocsis.

Why would Messi drop into midfield when he has the greatest playmaker ever in there? The times he has dropped deep is for Argentina and post-Xavi Barca when both midfields were abysmal and devoid of any creativity. Here you have a team clearly instructed to play on the counter with Beckenbauer playing it out and Maradona launching counters, which is as good as it can get in those setting. Messi will clearly not drop in front of your DMs, he will most likely start runs from the right channel cutting in through the middle, some say that is the greatest offensive weapon the game has seen.

 

[Enigma_87]

His offensive formation in the OP says otherwise, and has Messi up front alongside Kocsis.

Why would Messi drop into midfield when he has the greatest playmaker ever in there? The times he has dropped deep is for Argentina and post-Xavi Barca when both midfields were abysmal and devoid of any creativity. Here you have a team clearly instructed to play on the counter with Beckenbauer playing it out and Maradona launching counters, which is as good as it can get in those setting. Messi will clearly not drop in front of your DMs, he will most likely start runs from the right channel cutting in through the middle, some say that is the greatest offensive weapon the game has seen.

It's in the OP:

Messi and Maradona will have an eye on the opposing fullbacks and track them back or drop into midfield, so that the Keane and Tigana can help out wide. Kocsis upfront alone will be too much for enigma's defense; he will be constantly harassing opposing Ayala/Campbell throughout the game and often dropped even deeper to help win back the ball in midfield.

It's Kocsis alone between the two CB's whilst Messi will clearly be dropping into midfield.

Rijkaard will be minding Messi to protect the back 4. That's why I positioned him on the left side to depict just that.

LS offensive strategy is based on winning the midfield battle which IMO is far from the truth in the matchup.

 

[Lord SInister]

Again highlighting the key point:

Enigma is playing without a proper striker: Di Stefano used to move around Puskas and liked to be the only one Admiral at the heart of the game

Kopa , Rial, Di Stefano (look at that body language, I am the leader, I need ball), the pure striker Puskas, the left-winger Gento.

 

[Enigma_87]

@Lord SInister

The CF version of AdS is before both Didi and Puskas came to the team. After Puskas came AdS was the one man spine to the team and the version I've used in the previous game

 

[Moby]

This shits over La-Maquina.

 

[idmanager]

Not sure if this was bought up earlier in the thread as I have not gone through it fully, but I would have preferred Figo on the left and Kalle on the right.
Figo's hard work on the left would be much appreciated against such a right heavy attack.
Also, Figo against Ziege becomes much less dangerous with Forester added. A much mlore direct thread in Kalle would have made it tougher IMO.

Not to the say the current setup is not good, but I find the swapped flanks better.