I have said it already but, pasting Boniek in a wide position on formation pic doesn't really mean anything. He is explicitly instructed to provide width and he would do so. Cruyff I don't really need to tell you how good he was in wide areas, as was Ronaldo. Zambrotta might not seen a great defender in the drafts, thats hardly the reason for not playing him. He is absolutely needed to play against Roberto Carlos and Litti is not going to give anything different that Cruyff, Boniek and Ronaldo are not doing already.Really? I said that. Must have been drunk
Tbh, if I was you, I'd have given fielded Cruyff in his own 3-4-3 formation... Zambrarotta has rarely been rated as a good defender in drafts and Litti may as well serve you better both as a player and for width.
Boniek......Ronaldo......Litti
...............Cruyff.............
...Davids............Ocwirk...
................Vogts.............
..Maldini...Blanc...Thuram..
Dominoes draft: Grand Finale - Tuppet vs Lord SInister
- Thread starter Enigma_87
- Start date
Going with three at the back against Messi and Maradona would be a suicide. With LS midfield consisting of Tigana and Keane it makes no sense to go for trying to dominate the game.
Your set up is excellent, soaking pressure against that LS side given your roster is the best way to do it.
Pep says hi
The MOTM award is between Ronaldo and Maradona
I agree
Kaiser won't be so busy because he plays alongside with Tigana and Keane.
Boniek has a high work-rate indeed but I don't view him as the ideal playmaker who sets the tempo and organizes the game. Maybe I underrate him like but I'm sure you underrate Nesta/Forster IMO.
I agree
Kaiser won't be so busy because he plays alongside with Tigana and Keane.
Boniek has a high work-rate indeed but I don't view him as the ideal playmaker who sets the tempo and organizes the game. Maybe I underrate him like but I'm sure you underrate Nesta/Forster IMO.
I surely don't underrate them. Nesta/KHF are one of the best defenders of all time - the tier below the GOAT's. Tigana and Keane will also be occupied with Davids/Ocwirk in transition. To me Boniek's role is essential in a way he'd help the attack but also keep Beckenbauer busy in the hole, thus creating some space for Cruyff.
What ? Didn't Pep tried 3 at back for Bayern and got destroyed by Messi and Barcelona. Is there another game he is saying hi from ?
I would have added an arrow in this regard but thanks for the clarification.
I've read quickly your nice Q&A.
No it's from that Bayern game. It was an ironic hi
He has Maldini, greatest defensive LB of all time on the left and Zambrotta was a World Cup winner at RB and you want to switch Zambrotta and take out the best LB counter to Messi that exists in history?
Wow, surprised at the score.
Personally don’t buy Vogts on Maradona as a realistic solution, could maybe see it working the odd game out of ten.
Biggest difference in quality for me is in the midfield areas where Beckenbauer / Tigana / Keane looks a couple of levels above as a unit.
Personally don’t buy Vogts on Maradona as a realistic solution, could maybe see it working the odd game out of ten.
Biggest difference in quality for me is in the midfield areas where Beckenbauer / Tigana / Keane looks a couple of levels above as a unit.
I'm assuming EAP meant that Zambrotta could play on the left of midfield providing defensive support.
He has Maldini, greatest defensive LB of all time on the left and Zambrotta was a World Cup winner at RB and you want to switch Zambrotta and take out the best LB counter to Messi that exists in history?
Instead of Davids?
I would only have Baresi, Figueroa and Beckenbauer ahead of him. The others for me are on par and it would more be about fit and what the opposition are sporting.
Feck knows who he'd sacrifice - instead of Boniek possibly.
He has Maldini, greatest defensive LB of all time on the left and Zambrotta was a World Cup winner at RB and you want to switch Zambrotta and take out the best LB counter to Messi that exists in history?
What? I thought Zambarotta will be better on other flank.
Zambarotta.....................
........Maldini...Blanc...Thuram
Messi is the only forward who will drift wide and having an extra defender there would help. And I rate Zambo the same on either flank, so may as well make use of an extra body vs Messi.
Ouch! Is he in the sheep draft? I'll let you have dibs on the sheep picks when he fails to read and follow instructions properly.
Once again, you miss the whole picture and ignore other relevant aspects.
No, I don't play
Nah disagree mate. You can argue about Kohler and Krol, but on par with Scirea and the two WC winning captains IMO he's not.
do tell
@antohan water under the bridge, feeling a bit sick today so was in a bitchy mood.....now after Younetti show im better, already apologized to ecs via pm.
Sorry if I sounded harsh in my last posts. Just wanted to make this thread living
Sure, I will have the time to explain my views tomorrow.
Sure, I will have the time to explain my views tomorrow.
I find it strange that Sammer never gets into a discussion about GOAT defenders? Maybe @Balu can expand on him at his peak....
I want to vote Tuppet for his tactics and write up, plus the fact I really love his team.
But i'm worried about Blanc and Courtois. I can see Maldini and Thuram doing a job on Messi and I buy Vogts giving Maradona a tough time. But he is going to get past him once or twice and even with that aside, I see Kocsis giving Blanc a really difficult 90 minutes.
That goes the same down the other end. It's another superb defence which will have their work cut out against an amazing attack. As well as they line up, there will be chances for Ronaldo and Cruyff to score.
I see both sides creating a similar number of chances and it boils down to who I think will save more of them. Reluctantly, and despite a brilliant tactical performance making this closer than I ever thought it would be, my vote goes to SInister.
But i'm worried about Blanc and Courtois. I can see Maldini and Thuram doing a job on Messi and I buy Vogts giving Maradona a tough time. But he is going to get past him once or twice and even with that aside, I see Kocsis giving Blanc a really difficult 90 minutes.
That goes the same down the other end. It's another superb defence which will have their work cut out against an amazing attack. As well as they line up, there will be chances for Ronaldo and Cruyff to score.
I see both sides creating a similar number of chances and it boils down to who I think will save more of them. Reluctantly, and despite a brilliant tactical performance making this closer than I ever thought it would be, my vote goes to SInister.
Fair enough on the vote mate, but I just wanted to clarify since @mazhar13 also raise the same point of having all Thuram, Maldini and Davids on Messi. May be it wasn't clear in write up but when I say that he is operated in the zone marshalled by Maldini, Thuram and Davids I did not mean that they are all man marking him. That would obviously be madness, I have faith in my defenders and I believe Maldini would blunt the attack from Messi to a good extent. Nesta and Silva have done it before and usually classy defenders who don't jump in tackles have it good against him. Maldini is naturally the one who is tracking Messi primarily as Messi is playing on right wing and Maldini as Left back.
I don't have to sell Maldini too much as he is recognized by everyone as the greatest defensive LB of all time. Messi would still beat him a few times and thats where Thuram comes into play in that he as an extremely athletic right footed defender presents another great obstacle in his path. This however does not mean that Thuram is marking him most of the time as that would imply that Messi is beating Maldini all the time. As for Davids he is operating as a defensive midfielder if Messi drops deep in midfield (where he really doesn't want to be as that would just crowd Maradona) Davids would work against him. Thuram would and should help against Kocsis and Maradona when he slips past Vogts.
One quick point about Blanc - He was truly great in air, I don't see Kocsis troubling him that much, but again he is not facing him alone, Kocsis is against a CB partnership. Pretty standard stuff that.
TL;DR - Against Messi we have basic Zonal defense instead of Man marking ala Maradona. The reasoning is that from LS' tactic its clear that Maradona is the one who is going to be the primary playmaker and run the game and we want to curtail him. Thuram is not on Messi all the time, he is playing usual stopper CB and would play against Kocsis and Maradona naturally. Messi could drop deep and try to run the game from there, it would overwhelm our midfield for sure but LS would lost a lot of attacking edge if he does that.
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I just don't see the point of having Zambo on Left flank. First I need him on the right side as Carlos is also a potent attacking threat and to give him something to think while he is attacking. But I fail to see a tactic where I would need both LB and LWB, even if I face Messi there. As mentioned above if Messi drops deep in midfield and we are defending Davids would pick him and Boniek would help. This would stretch our midfield but our defense is still intact, Kocsis is still between Thuram and Blanc, Maldini is tucking in and Vogts is sitting on Maradona. Messi needs to play near our goal to break this defense, he would need to be playing in the Maldini-Thuram zone for most of the game and so I really don't see the need of another left mid there.
I dunno why but Kocsis is sold in this draft by most as a heading striker with "yeah he was good with feet, but his whole game revolved around heading".
Some posts on Kocsis from old drafts.
Some posts on Kocsis from other forums:
Some posts on Kocsis from old drafts.
There's not a lot of footage of the Magyars to be honest, but from what I've seen I was fairly comfortable of Kocsis being capable of setting up others and banging them in himself. After all Puskas has over 700 career goals and didn't set them all up himself. Anyway a few elements of that side of his game which I feel would come in useful here:
Clever angled header to set up Czibor
With Puskas out injured in the crunch semi-final against Uruguay, Kocsis took on a more active creative role, dropping deep here to thread in the right-winger, then using his pace to get on the end of what should have been the return.
Nifty back-heel lay-off for the wide attacker cutting in to attack.
Dropping deep against England before switching play.
Some posts on Kocsis from other forums:
In my first writing, the Argentinian "La Machina" was in, together with a few other other schemes, but I had to cancel them because of the file size limits on the website.
I will try to rewrite and post the Machine
As for Hungary 1954, I'm confortable enough with the scheme I wrote since in the Puskas autobiography I have ("Puskas on Puskas") both Puskas and the other players quoted clearly say Lorant was the last defenders, and Zakarias was in line with the two fullbacks.
Hidegkuti was more or less in line with the wings (more with the right wing, Budai or Toth, who was more in charge to help the midfield, than in line with Czibor who was a left winger free to ride and care more of the attack).
Kocsis was the the upfront man, sometimes moving from the center to the right (to occupy the space left free by Budai coming back to the midfield, or to leave open space to Puskas to enter the penalty area), while Puskas was a sort of "trequartista"/second striker, free to move from the midfield to the opposite penalty area.
What's amazing is the fact that the Magyar MM was born to solve the problem of Bamba Deak no more available as striker.
Having two great inside forwards in Puskas and Kocsis, Sepes had the brilliant idea to leave them free to care of the attack only, and move back the N. 9 (the "deep lying centre-forward", who became in fact a midfielder).
Initially, he used Palotas (a brilliant player, but with problematic heart conditions), then he decided to try Hidegkuti (who, until then, was playing in his team as right wing).
At first it didn't worked. Sebes understood the problem of Hidegkuti was of psychologic nature (he had problems to face pressure, and couldn't sleep if he knew he was going to play a National team match).
When nobody expected Hidegkuti to play in the regular team, in a transfer to Helsinki, where Sebes could not attend, he left a paper to be read only immediately before the match. Only at that time, Hidegkuti (who had a good sleep the night before) knew he was going to play ... he played magnificently and acquired the necessary self esteem, From then on, he was the perfet choice for the Hungarian n. 9!
Kocsis was superman, but he's not as celebrated nor as prolific as F. Puskas or Pele. Sandor Kocsis was the impetus that made the Magical Magyars tick like clockwork.
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1. Because everyone from his team mates to his coach said that his best asset was his heading.
Hungarian journalist Marosi said:
2. Because he has an insane heading record with almost 100 headers more than the second one and an incredible headed to foot goal ratio.
3. Because his team mates have given interviews saying that he always demanded ball to be played in air.
4. Because his most important goals in biggest matches have been headers.
5. Because he was nick-named Cabeza de Oro (Golden Head).
Again this is all relative he was a good alround striker but denying that his greatest strength was his heading is basically looking the other side from facts. I am all for bigging up your players, you need to sell them and sometimes oversell them to win the drafts but saying that the greatest header the game has ever seen does not have heading as his biggest strength is just weird to me. Also I am not saying he would do nothing or that he was a big hulking player (Who would have been more useful IMO) with no technique. I am just saying that its on record that he gets frustrated when ball is not played in air for him, he would be frustrated playing without wingers and he does not fit in the system that Messi / Maradona would like to play most of the time.
It was not without precedent either, one of the reasons given for Hungary's defeat against Germany in WC final was putting Budai on bench and shifting Czibor on left. Kocsis didn't get a whiff of the goal in the final without the fantastic service he was receiving throughout the tournament. To a lesser extent in SF Uruguay made it hard for Hungarian team to score by Victor Andrade marking Czibor, game got to injury time and then Andrade got injured and Kocsis duly delivered scoring two headers.
I am not discounting his heading skill, but it is weird that his overall game is discounted, trying to make it like Hungary of 1950s relied on crosses to his head only for goals, Hungary played a updated footballing style like the La Máquina, a early version of total football.
Firstly you are discounting that Kocsis in my team is going to have plenty of service from wide in form of Messi, Carlos,Gerets, Maradona and sometimes Tigana/Keane.
Secondly, Kocsis is also known for being a link-up player, who would drift right in the space left by Budai. He could play the ball on the ground, and wait for a right cross/lob pass to head home. It is not like he would be frustrated all game, insisting that every ball played to him should be a cross to his head.
Lastly, I am not sacrificing Kocsis's game or Messi's game. Kocsis is going to play as he used to, linking up with the teammates and waiting for those crosses and passes to head or finish. Trying to set up Messi/Maradona when they are in better possible position.
Neither is Messi's game is sacrificed as Messi is still going to roam around ably assisted by Keane/Gerets/Tigana/Maradona/Kocsis, free to take shots cutting from right, while also assisting Kocsis, Maradona, Carlos and one of the advancing Tigana/Keane, apart from getting into scoring positions when possible.
3. Because his team mates have given interviews saying that he always demanded ball to be played in air.
Reading from the both quotes, the main problem he had during these instances was not about crossing to his head, the problem is ignoring Kocsis and giving more emphasis for Puskas.
And in my team, that is not going to happen.
Reading from the both quotes, the main problem he had during these instances was not about crossing to his head, the problem is ignoring Kocsis and giving more emphasis for Puskas.
And in my team, that is not going to happen.
2. Because he has an insane heading record with almost 100 headers more than the second one and an incredible headed to foot goal ratio.
One is counting official goals, other is giving a estimated count of his total goals(club friendlies and exhibitions included). Ofcourse his headed goals count is outstanding but making a ratio out from an actual count of goals and estimated figure is not a wise thing to do.
One is counting official goals, other is giving a estimated count of his total goals(club friendlies and exhibitions included). Ofcourse his headed goals count is outstanding but making a ratio out from an actual count of goals and estimated figure is not a wise thing to do.
That's fine, and thanks for refuting my point, but I wasn't referring to man-marking Messi. The issue with him playing in that zone is that he's going to switch around and flutter between the various areas in his zone. That's what made him so dangerous. His large array of skills and attributes makes him a threat in multiple areas, and that's where the discipline is needed from your team. Your initial write-up made me think that the three players would mainly focus on Messi, which isn't a safe approach to go with given that LS has other significant threats in his side. I mean, Messi-Gerets on the right will stretch the pitch, and Davids will have to be wary as well. If that wasn't a GOAT-tier player on the right, I'd say that you'd have the threat well-contained, but if Messi beats one of your defenders with a dribble, pass, or run, then your whole team is stretched.
Having said that, the fact that your team is sitting deep will help stifle LS' attack, particularly since you are very dangerous on the counter. If you get that first goal, you have a great chance of winning the match, but if they score first, they have a great chance of winning the match.
Re: Kocsis
I think once things get to this level its not 'can these players work together in this tactic' so much as 'which combinations are getting a greater than the sum of the parts effect'. Kocsis-Messi-Maradona just doesn't strike me as the most synergistic trio. Its not so much that Kocsis would be poor as much as he just isn't going to be in his optimal environment. In this sense I think Cruyff-Boniek-Ronaldo has a bit more synergy and the players will function together more seamlessly.
I think once things get to this level its not 'can these players work together in this tactic' so much as 'which combinations are getting a greater than the sum of the parts effect'. Kocsis-Messi-Maradona just doesn't strike me as the most synergistic trio. Its not so much that Kocsis would be poor as much as he just isn't going to be in his optimal environment. In this sense I think Cruyff-Boniek-Ronaldo has a bit more synergy and the players will function together more seamlessly.
Yeah, wasn't accusing you in bias but rather saying that I know your view on him and I don't fully agree with it. Nor Maradona, nor Messi are egoistic goalscorers, despite Messi's ridiculous goalscoring record, and having someone like Kocsis on the end of Messi's lobbed passes on the left (like the one that Alba scored just now against Valencia); or having Kocsis on the end of Maradona's crosses - from the left, from the right (rabona
My favorite post on Kocsis so far. Exactly puts my thoughts as well in better words than I could have.
One has to look beyond Messi/Maradona and into the other providers as well, i.e the wing backs. Kocsis suits all 4 of them.
In a game where Maradona and Messi are going to be surrounded by players all the time, the break through might come out of a Carlos/Gerets cross.
An all round striker was the need of the hour and he fits the bill quite well IMO.
depends on the tactics to be honest.
Tuppet is setting up a counter attacking game and giving me the ball, Cruyff will be the biggest moaner, and I can see him getting frustrated.
While Ronaldo might be waiting for that one ball to release him, Cruyff as he always laments defensive style of play, will be lamenting the whole game.
Plus there are very few attackers who can compliment Maradona as well as Kocsis.
I can't agree with that at all. I think there are more than a few who complement Maradona better than Kocsis. Just from that era I'd take Jimmy Greaves > Kocsis with Maradona personally.
Greaves is not from that era, but I got your point.
Greaves is a dream striker for any team though, and also he is one of the most criminally underrated players of all time.
Kocsis IMO given his excellent movement, link-up play and finishing, can form a dangerous partnership with Maradona. Although Careca and Kocsis are not exactly the same mould of stikers, but this partnership can go that route.