Do we need a modern goalkeeper?

He lacks bravery, which is a massive flaw not only in his game but in his actual character as well.

His outright refusal to attempt to collect any cross (especially from corners) that is floated into the 6-yard box, creates a massive weakness in our defence; and comes back to De Gea’s complete lack of bravery.

The absolute minimum requirement for a team to challenge for trophies is to have a brave goalkeeper... make of that what you will.
 
The Caf strikes again.


Literally one of the players who has turned up this season and back to his best, quick read of this thread different reality and needs to go asap.
 
No. When it comes to requirements it's always basic level, advanced and then you go for premium. Compare it to a house.

At the basic level you need it to be solidly built and practical. When that's sorted you might want it a bit advanced with heated floor, and what not. After that you go for the premium swimming pool.

The basic level of a goalkeeper is to be a good shot stopper. Then you might want a goalkeeper that exudes confidence and commands the backline. Last comes the premium goalkeepers that are capable of using their feet and can act as an outfield player when called upon.

If you build from premium through advanced and lastly look after the basic level you get Claudio Bravo who can pass the ball and perhaps command his backline but can't save the ball, it's like a house with an 140 inch tv that leaks water from the roof.
 
When he first joined us he was actually a very good passer, he did start off as an outfield player after all.

His issue has always been his confidence and with the manager turnover he's been allowed to retreat into his shell/goal line and stop working on that area of his game. He bails them out with his shot stopping and so he's left alone. Under SAF he was forced to work on his weaknesses and I'm sure if SAF was still around he would have developed into the commanding goalkeeper he was on his way to becoming.

Anyway, we would like a 'modern' keeper but we don't desperately need one as long as we have De Gea. He is on the list of required upgrades but he's right at the bottom of it.
 
The Oracle said:
He lacks bravery, which is a massive flaw not only in his game but in his actual character as well.

His outright refusal to attempt to collect any cross (especially from corners) that is floated into the 6-yard box, creates a massive weakness in our defence; and comes back to De Gea’s complete lack of bravery.

The absolute minimum requirement for a team to challenge for trophies is to have a brave goalkeeper... make of that what you will.
Click to expand...
How many dupes has OGS and the United social media department have on this forum?
 
De Gea needs to up his game and be prepared to play more incisive passes, make more tackles, get more crosses in and score more goals. If he isn't getting on the end of his own crosses and scoring at least two or three a game what's the point of having him there as a goalkeeper?
 
I think if we want to evolve our game into a more possession based team, we need to make two signings - a top midfielder and goalkeeper.

The goalposts (pun intended) have shifted as to what constitutes a top class keeper these days now that a lot of teams press from the front. I think teams need 11 footballers as opposed to 10 footballers + the keeper if they want to compete at the highest level. De Gea is only a goalkeeper for us who often causes panic at the back - it's a huge weakness that teams can and do exploit time and again.

Our outfield players have one less option when being pressed and it hinders us progressing the ball because any team competent in the press can then anticipate our outlets and a great pressing team can dictate the whole game, we saw it against Liverpool. If De Gea was at least decent with the ball at his feet, he'd help to alleviate pressure by finding a teammate in space up the field as he has the whole picture in front of him, instead he puts us at a great disadvantage a lot of the time with his weak passing. With the pace we have up front, he should be getting a few assists or at least be finding teammates in space up the field consistently. What we get instead is short passing into defence, then into midfield, back to defence, sideways passing, ball into the wings and back - far too predictable and easy to press. I'm not attributing this to De Gea completely, the midfield and defence play their part in poor ball progression but if we had a keeper who provides that 11th option, we'd function better as a team and struggle far less than we do.

I'd like to say he's a world-class goalkeeper though, if we're judging on shot stopping alone.
 
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The thing about De Gea for me is that -

A goalkeeper who comes off his line to collect a cross during a corner is not a modern goalkeeper.

That is just something a good goalkeeper does - doesn't it?

We arguably talk about De Gea's reflexes but a goalkeepers reflexes should get better if they don't come of their line and act later to the situation than quickly to the situation by coming off his line.

De Gea is a goalkeeper that we need to stop using because he is like a drug to me. Him and 2 defenders will always have a problem during corners because ultimately he doesn't come out to collect that corner with his two hands.

Our defending in set pieces are crap be it Free kicks, Corners, penalties or whatever.

De gea is just a goalkeeper reliant on his reflexes and no matter who the defenders are - there will be a big gap between the defenders and the goalkeeper to attack because De Gea simply doesn't want to come out to play.


Whether we need a modern goalkeeper or not, having a goalkeeper that can come out of his line even during a corner will be a start to something we haven't had for a decade ( except when players like Romero or Henderson made De Gea sit on the bench, which I always preferred, even if De Gea's saves on the line looked better - I felt better with goalkeepers who had a varied gameplay).
 
I feel for the people who have to explain to others here why De Gea is a liability. It is literally impossible to get through that when teams cross into the middle of our 6 yards from corners is due to knowing our keeper isn’t coming out. At the same time we are complaining why we can’t score from a corner ourselves. Many reasons for that, but one of them is that we can never whip the ball into the middle of the six yard box to create havoc due to most keepers collecting it (as you would expect).

People who feel that De Gea is our best player this season have the right to their opinion. There were many incredibly well written posts detailing De Gea’s effect on our defence in his performance thread. For many people it seems like our keeper is just a guy in a different coloured shirt on the edge of the screen that is almost irrelevant to our team’s defence. However, what I find inexcusable is our coaching staff persisting with De Gea. That I truly cannot understand and maybe it is us, seeing his many faults who are completely wrong. At the end of the day they are professional coaches, some even specialise in goalkeeping and they know what they are doing? When I watch keepers like Martinez and Sá (De Gea’s clone btw) collecting a whipped in cross 1 metre outside the six yard box like it’s nobody’s business I feel jealous.
 
De Gea is a good keeper, it's the coaching of the defence which is utterly awful. A well drilled team and defence should make their owns keepers job utterly boring.
 
Based on this season, Degea is the last thing we should worry about.

We need to sort out the defence and midfield. And most importantly appoint a progressive modern manager with clear style of play.
 
Yakuza_devils said:
Based on this season, Degea is the last thing we should worry about.

We need to sort out the defence and midfield. And most importantly appoint a progressive modern manager with clear style of play.
Click to expand...
Posts like this keep surprising me. Clear points are made in this thread why de Gea weakens the defence and midfield in front of him, you see that defence and midfield need to improve, even request a progressive coach, yet you completely fail to acknowledge that de Gea is a big change needed for that?!
 
stefan92 said:
Posts like this keep surprising me. Clear points are made in this thread why de Gea weakens the defence and midfield in front of him, you see that defence and midfield need to improve, even request a progressive coach, yet you completely fail to acknowledge that de Gea is a big change needed for that?!
Click to expand...

I understand your points. But I state that based on this season, DDG is the least of our problem. We have Maguire, McT, Fred, Shaw, AWB and co nowhere near to be able to play modern attacking football. Hence, need to get a top class manager first and foremost to implement an effective style of play.

In longer term, yes may need to upgrade on the "modern keeper". We will cross the bridge when we get there. This season so far, DDG has been excellent albeit still not as good as he used to be.
 
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Henderson is a far better fit for the team than De Gea, all the stats and team performances last season point this out. The defense looks more assured when Henderson is in goal. Whether he is good enough on the ball to play out the way most modern keepers do is up in the air. But he is young and is already better at all those aspects than De Gea ever was. The only thing De Gea has over his is his shot stopping ability. It's exactly why a Simon plays ahead of him for Spain.

I've posted this video before on here. Schmeichel is not talking about him directly but he explains everything that's wrong with De Gea when describing Ben Foster.



Edit: This is the sky video he references.

 
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Yakuza_devils said:
I understand your points. But I state that based on this season, DDG is the least of our problem. We have Maguire, McT, Fred, Shaw, AWB and co nowhere near to be able to play modern attacking football. Hence, need to get a top class manager first and foremost to implement an effective style of play.

In longer term, yes may need to upgrade on the "modern keeper". We will cross the bridge when we get there. This season so far, DDG has been excellent albeit still not as good as he used to be.
Click to expand...
I just think that playing Henderson instead of de Gea might already shorten the space the rest of the team has to play in by 5-10 yards and therefore improve their performances. Appears to me as a first simple step to get the outfield players closer together again, like @Oranges038 just stated the team fits better when he is playing.

It is surely possible to find better keepers than Henderson, but he is just a quick option to improve the team a bit. Don't expect a magical turnaround, but it would be a step in the right direction.
 
I really don;t understand, with the evidence right in their face, why people don't realise that Henderson, in place of De Gea in goal, will lend the much needed stability and confidence to our defence. There is a reason De Gea does not get into his national team.
 
We won our last title with the same keeper who was arguably nowhere near the standard he had set for himself lately. Yet somehow we cant win titles with him

LOGIC....
 
Flexdegea said:
The Caf strikes again.


Literally one of the players who has turned up this season and back to his best, quick read of this thread different reality and needs to go asap.
Click to expand...

He always plays better the worse we play as a team. De Gea is better when he’s busy. Just look at his mistakes for Spain over three years. He lacks concentration.
 
SungSam7 said:
We won our last title with the same keeper who was arguably nowhere near the standard he had set for himself lately. Yet somehow we cant win titles with him

LOGIC....
Click to expand...

And if football hadn’t changed at all in the last ten years they would be a totally valid point.
 
devips said:
I really don;t understand, with the evidence right in their face, why people don't realise that Henderson, in place of De Gea in goal, will lend the much needed stability and confidence to our defence. There is a reason De Gea does not get into his national team.
Click to expand...

Henderson is still somewhat erratic though. I don’t know if this is a over-confidence thing or maybe just still settling into being a Man Utd goalkeeper but he does some odd things.
 
DDG had a dip last year but based on current form he is arguably in the top3 again. He single handedly prevented Villareal from giving us an absolute tonking the other week and contrary to popular opinion he does show leadership qualities and roasts his defence. Would it be nice to have a keeper who can ping it like Alison? no doubt. our issues in defence are exacerbated by our club captain
 
SungSam7 said:
We won our last title with the same keeper who was arguably nowhere near the standard he had set for himself lately. Yet somehow we cant win titles with him

LOGIC....
Click to expand...
It is about utilizing the squad. De Gea would still work for a low block, defensive minded team. United however have a very attacking squad. Dropping world class attackers just to play de Gea would be stupid.

If United had an abundance of great defenders and not so many great attackers it would be absolutely fine to play de Gea, but for the current squad he is the wrong keeper.
 
What some people in this thread don't seem to be understanding is that a sweeper keeper who can intercept balls and confidently get involved in build up play adds an extra string to your bow and makes you a better team, and that's an extra string which our rivals for the title have and we don't. The goal is to win the title isn't it? Ignoring obvious advantages that our rivals have over us and not doing anything about it isn't the way to do it.
 
The Oracle said:
He lacks bravery, which is a massive flaw not only in his game but in his actual character as well.

His outright refusal to attempt to collect any cross (especially from corners) that is floated into the 6-yard box, creates a massive weakness in our defence; and comes back to De Gea’s complete lack of bravery.

The absolute minimum requirement for a team to challenge for trophies is to have a brave goalkeeper... make of that what you will.
Click to expand...

What?????
 
Stack said:
What?????
Click to expand...

You can visibly see the hesitancy and nervousness in his body language when the ball is put in and around the six yard area. He knows it's his ball and that he should go and deal with it, he briefly thinks about doing so and then panics and changes his mind.
 
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Stack said:
What?????
Click to expand...

I posted this back in May after the Villarreal debacle:

'De Gea was handed a set of notes that turned out to be 50% accurate (up to and including the first sudden death penalty); with the said sudden death penalty being correctly hit straight down the middle without a single ounce of hesitation (no stuttering in the run up, no looking at the keeper, no waiting for the keeper to make his move; no none of that, just eyes fixed on the ball and hit centrally).

I am at a loss how you can defend De Gea for not following the notes he was given.

I can not state it any more clearer than this...

Had De Gea followed the notes, Manchester United would have won the shootout.'


That to me showed a complete lack of bravery in his character.
He wasn't brave enough to put his trust into the coaches that he works with day in, day out.
They knew a lot better than he did, the direction with which the Villarreal players were very likely to place their spot-kicks.
 
Oranges038 said:
I've said it before and I'll say it again.

Henderson is a far better fit for the team than De Gea, all the stats and team performances last season point this out. The defense looks more assured when Henderson is in goal. Whether he is good enough on the ball to play out the way most modern keepers do is up in the air. But he is young and is already better at all those aspects than De Gea ever was. The only thing De Gea has over his is his shot stopping ability. It's exactly why a Simon plays ahead of him for Spain.

I've posted this video before on here. Schmeichel is not talking about him directly but he explains everything that's wrong with De Gea when describing Ben Foster.

Click to expand...


Yeah, it's probably a little harsh given De Gea's shot-stopping has already saved us points this season, but I'm still not convinced the defence is more solid overall with him in goal. He just stays glued to his line too often.

His distribution is noticeably better this season though, so kudos to the guy for working on it. He's a far better keeper right now than he's been at any point in the last 24 months.
 
The Oracle said:
I posted this back in May after the Villarreal debacle:

'De Gea was handed a set of notes that turned out to be 50% accurate (up to and including the first sudden death penalty); with the said sudden death penalty being correctly hit straight down the middle without a single ounce of hesitation (no stuttering in the run up, no looking at the keeper, no waiting for the keeper to make his move; no none of that, just eyes fixed on the ball and hit centrally).

I am at a loss how you can defend De Gea for not following the notes he was given.

I can not state it any more clearer than this...

Had De Gea followed the notes, Manchester United would have won the shootout.'


That to me showed a complete lack of bravery in his character.
He wasn't brave enough to put his trust into the coaches that he works with day in, day out.
They knew a lot better than he did, the direction with which the Villarreal players were very likely to place their spot-kicks.
Click to expand...
Explain to me exactly how I am defending him here? Im questioning how you think you know his "actual character"
 
Andrew7582 said:
You can visibly see the hesitancy and nervousness in his body language when the ball is put in and around the six yard area. He knows it's his ball and that he should go and deal with it, he briefly thinks about doing so and then panics and changes his mind.
Click to expand...
I highlighted the words "Actual Character" You must be an absolute mind reader and savant genius to be able to conclude that his actual character lacks bravery. Its just daft.
 
De Gea improved a lot this season with his distribution. His ball to Rashford at the start of the game was as good as any you’ll see from any goalkeeper.

@GifLord you wouldn’t have a video mate?
 
Paxi said:
De Gea improved a lot this season with his distribution. His ball to Rashford at the start of the game was as good as any you’ll see from any goalkeeper.

@GifLord you wouldn’t have a video mate?
Click to expand...

Did you not see his pass only a few minutes before straight down the middle to the Atalanta player on the center circle?
 
Stack said:
Explain to me exactly how I am defending him here? Im questioning how you think you know his "actual character"
Click to expand...

You have clearly missed the quotation marks in the post of mine that you have responded to.

For clarification I was re-posting something that I had written in response to another member of the forum back in May. The re-post of what I had written was not aimed at you, it was highlighting why I believe that De Gea lacks bravery in his character (as well as in his game).

I will now re-post what I said to you earlier, including the quotation marks; but this time I will bold the part that I quoted from a post I made to another forum member back in May...


I posted this back in May after the Villarreal debacle:

'De Gea was handed a set of notes that turned out to be 50% accurate (up to and including the first sudden death penalty); with the said sudden death penalty being correctly hit straight down the middle without a single ounce of hesitation (no stuttering in the run up, no looking at the keeper, no waiting for the keeper to make his move; no none of that, just eyes fixed on the ball and hit centrally).

I am at a loss how you can defend De Gea for not following the notes he was given.

I can not state it any more clearer than this...

Had De Gea followed the notes, Manchester United would have won the shootout.'


That to me showed a complete lack of bravery in his character.
He wasn't brave enough to put his trust into the coaches that he works with day in, day out.
They knew a lot better than he did, the direction with which the Villarreal players were very likely to place their spot-kicks.
 
DDG is not anywhere close to one of our biggest worries at the moment.
He has done well this season so far.
 
The Oracle said:
You have clearly missed the quotation marks in the post of mine that you have responded to.

For clarification I was re-posting something that I had written in response to another member of the forum back in May. The re-post of what I had written was not aimed at you, it was highlighting why I believe that De Gea lacks bravery in his character (as well as in his game).

I will now re-post what I said to you earlier, including the quotation marks; but this time I will bold the part that I quoted from a post I made to another forum member back in May...


I posted this back in May after the Villarreal debacle:

'De Gea was handed a set of notes that turned out to be 50% accurate (up to and including the first sudden death penalty); with the said sudden death penalty being correctly hit straight down the middle without a single ounce of hesitation (no stuttering in the run up, no looking at the keeper, no waiting for the keeper to make his move; no none of that, just eyes fixed on the ball and hit centrally).

I am at a loss how you can defend De Gea for not following the notes he was given.

I can not state it any more clearer than this...

Had De Gea followed the notes, Manchester United would have won the shootout.'


That to me showed a complete lack of bravery in his character.
He wasn't brave enough to put his trust into the coaches that he works with day in, day out.
They knew a lot better than he did, the direction with which the Villarreal players were very likely to place their spot-kicks.
Click to expand...

:boring::boring::boring:
 
The Oracle said:
You have clearly missed the quotation marks in the post of mine that you have responded to.

For clarification I was re-posting something that I had written in response to another member of the forum back in May. The re-post of what I had written was not aimed at you, it was highlighting why I believe that De Gea lacks bravery in his character (as well as in his game).

I will now re-post what I said to you earlier, including the quotation marks; but this time I will bold the part that I quoted from a post I made to another forum member back in May...


I posted this back in May after the Villarreal debacle:

'De Gea was handed a set of notes that turned out to be 50% accurate (up to and including the first sudden death penalty); with the said sudden death penalty being correctly hit straight down the middle without a single ounce of hesitation (no stuttering in the run up, no looking at the keeper, no waiting for the keeper to make his move; no none of that, just eyes fixed on the ball and hit centrally).

I am at a loss how you can defend De Gea for not following the notes he was given.

I can not state it any more clearer than this...

Had De Gea followed the notes, Manchester United would have won the shootout.'


That to me showed a complete lack of bravery in his character.
He wasn't brave enough to put his trust into the coaches that he works with day in, day out.
They knew a lot better than he did, the direction with which the Villarreal players were very likely to place their spot-kicks.
Click to expand...

That was a silly point then and it's a silly point now.

Goalkeepers aren't given those notes to follow them precisely. They're supposed to actually read the situation in front of them and deviate from them when they deem it appropriate. If a goalkeeper stuck rigidly to the notes like you seem to want then over the long run they would be worse at saving penalties.

Rather than being a reflection of De Gea not being brave, it's a reflection of you not understanding how penalties work. Criticise him for not saving the penalties if you want, but criticising him for not sticking to the notes is stupid.
 
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