Would have to leave Falcao or Mata out though and even then I'm not sure Herrera and Carrick would be enough defensively.
Do we have the most overrated collection of attackers in the league?
- Thread starter NessunDorma
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Would have to leave Falcao or Mata out though and even then I'm not sure Herrera and Carrick would be enough defensively.
That's nothing like the static 3-5-2 with one dimensional strkers and wingbacks that van Gaal is using at United. It's a crazy fluid formation with versatile players in defense and attack and their movement turns this constantly in different formations depending on the situation. On the pitch it also was heavily asymetrical and much more of a 334 with Götze playing a free roaming, left sided AM role, Bernat a more convential wingback and Robben a right winger. Then there's Alaba playing box to box even though he's a centerback on paper.
As been mentioned here, the 352 offers zero creativity and thus we create zero chances for our strikers. Yesterday, we essentially played 5-1-2-2, with Rooney and Mata as CM's and ADM as a striker. Neither Rooney nor Mata are players that usually make something happen on their own in that role, which is also the reason ADM and RvP saw so little of the ball.
When it comes to our attackers? Yes, most of them are overrated in varying degrees, but they still are capable of producing world class performances on the day. Now that we are almost injury free, i would like us to use
------------DDG---------- OR: ---------DDG---------
---------Back four------- ------Back Four------
------Carrick/Blind------ ----Carrick---Blind----
-Herrera--------ADM---- Fellaini--Mata----ADM
-------Mata/Rooney------ ---------Rooney-------
--RvP/Rooney--Falcao---
The 352 offer defensive security and useless possession among the 5(6) at the back, but not much else. The 442 diamond i posted, won't be as defensively sound, but much more creative with both Herrera and ADM providing movement for Mata
When it comes to our attackers? Yes, most of them are overrated in varying degrees, but they still are capable of producing world class performances on the day. Now that we are almost injury free, i would like us to use
------------DDG---------- OR: ---------DDG---------
---------Back four------- ------Back Four------
------Carrick/Blind------ ----Carrick---Blind----
-Herrera--------ADM---- Fellaini--Mata----ADM
-------Mata/Rooney------ ---------Rooney-------
--RvP/Rooney--Falcao---
The 352 offer defensive security and useless possession among the 5(6) at the back, but not much else. The 442 diamond i posted, won't be as defensively sound, but much more creative with both Herrera and ADM providing movement for Mata
Exactly right.
Also, another thing to notice is that we hardly press the opposition to win the ball back, which is one of the very first tenets of possession football. We are a depressingly static team, just going through the motions on a football field.
In my opinion we lack balance. The treble and the 3 CL side may have had less big names upfront but they clicked together and we had the right mix of talent, pace and work rate. Formations were set to get the best out of our players and in response to changes in tactics. These days there's a feeling that systems are being set either to try to accommodate as many big names as possible or to suit the manager agenda.
No
Rooney - our best striker and most talented player. He's currently played in CM to accommodate others
Di Maria - he's yet to settle down at OT. He's been moved in 3 roles ever since, CM, forward line and on the wings. That's not how players tend to settle down
RVP - he's clearly showing signs of decline and fatigue. He should be rested.
Falcao - another big name who hasn't yet settled down at United
Mata - A great player but he can only play as a AMC. Hence why Chelsea sold him.
I'd say we should go to a system that players know how to play and stick to it. 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 is the best system I can think of.
-----------Blind----Carrick-----------
Valencia--------Mata------------Di Maria
------------------Rooney--------------------
Di Maria - he's yet to settle down at OT. He's been moved in 3 roles ever since, CM, forward line and on the wings. That's not how players tend to settle down
RVP - he's clearly showing signs of decline and fatigue. He should be rested.
Falcao - another big name who hasn't yet settled down at United
Mata - A great player but he can only play as a AMC. Hence why Chelsea sold him.
I'd say we should go to a system that players know how to play and stick to it. 4-3-3/4-2-3-1 is the best system I can think of.
-----------Blind----Carrick-----------
Valencia--------Mata------------Di Maria
------------------Rooney--------------------
A bit of both
Might be true if one or two of them performed way below their level but as the matter of fact, all of them have been shit including Rooney & Di maria, players who are usually very consistent. The problem is something else.
Honestly, the philosophy confuse our players more than it confuse opposition teams....
Honestly, the philosophy confuse our players more than it confuse opposition teams....
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Rooney - v Persie
Mata
Di Maria - - - Blind
Carrick
Shaw - Rojo - Smalling - Rafael
De Gea
Blind to rotate with Fellaini/Herrera depending on the situation (and can also cover for Carrick obviously)Mata
Di Maria - - - Blind
Carrick
Shaw - Rojo - Smalling - Rafael
De Gea
Of course not. We have two undoubtedly world class strikers in our ranks, three if you still include Rooney as a striker. If ridiculous to think all three have all of a sudden lost it.
No striker can score without service, at least noone in this league other than Henry has ever managed it. When we played the diamond our forwards were scoring for fun. Since we reverted to 532 theyve been getting a half chance or two per game. No surprises the goals have dried up.
No striker can score without service, at least noone in this league other than Henry has ever managed it. When we played the diamond our forwards were scoring for fun. Since we reverted to 532 theyve been getting a half chance or two per game. No surprises the goals have dried up.
I think there's a lack of pace and the ability to beat a man. For a top 4 (at the moment) team we play really unexciting football and, apart from one or two games, have done so all season.
Blind and Carrick would be great. Probably switch Di Maria and Blind so Di Maria could shoot and stay infield and Blind cross, rather than trapping Di Maria out by the wing, but otherwise it's a very good team.
Felt like more could be got out of Shaw and Blind together. Blind obviously held deep which left Shaw a bit on his own; which wouldn't happen so much if he was in midfield.
Its a wonderful attack but we don't seem to have the players to create from a 352 system.
Mata: Getting goals but no good enough to play in the hole with little or no support
Falcao & RVP have both showed their class and they're constantly making brilliant runs but we're not picking them out.
Rooney: Attacking thread basically zero when playing him in midfield, he's not a MF player.
ADM: An assist machine when playing in the right position, but feck playing him in the right position, right?
Mata: Getting goals but no good enough to play in the hole with little or no support
Falcao & RVP have both showed their class and they're constantly making brilliant runs but we're not picking them out.
Rooney: Attacking thread basically zero when playing him in midfield, he's not a MF player.
ADM: An assist machine when playing in the right position, but feck playing him in the right position, right?
Is it fair to say that - based on their performances so far - our strikers are absolutely miles short of the quality required for a team with our aspirations?
Was thinking about it last night, watching RvP clatter through the back of someone after a crap touch. We're all bemoaning the lack of chances being created for our strikers but there's more to playing up front that tucking away chances (unless you're Darren Bent). How often do you see our strikers winning headers around the opposition box? Out-muscling defenders to hold the ball up and release it to an onrushing midfielder? Dribble past someone? Make a bit of space for themself to test the keeper from range? Or do any of the type of things you want from a striker other than get on the end of pin-point crosses and perfectly weighted through balls? I mean, feck it, even when they do get the perfectly weighted throughball or cross they still bloody miss!
Hate to say it - for all their reputation - RvP and Falcao have been really really poor. Until we played Di Maria up front and redefined striking shitness anyway. You can't help wondering if we'd have more points now if we'd fielded the likes of Bony, Pelle, Kane, Giroud, Valencia or even Andy bloody Carroll instead!
Not that I would want any of those strikers at United but in my 30 something years watching the club I've got used to watching us play with strikers as good as anyone else in the league. Really boils my piss watching how far off the pace our current crop are, while someone who might go down as most prolific goal-scorer ever is forced to bumble around in midfield, spanking cross-field passes to wing-backs and having running battles with the opposition and the ref.
Was thinking about it last night, watching RvP clatter through the back of someone after a crap touch. We're all bemoaning the lack of chances being created for our strikers but there's more to playing up front that tucking away chances (unless you're Darren Bent). How often do you see our strikers winning headers around the opposition box? Out-muscling defenders to hold the ball up and release it to an onrushing midfielder? Dribble past someone? Make a bit of space for themself to test the keeper from range? Or do any of the type of things you want from a striker other than get on the end of pin-point crosses and perfectly weighted through balls? I mean, feck it, even when they do get the perfectly weighted throughball or cross they still bloody miss!
Hate to say it - for all their reputation - RvP and Falcao have been really really poor. Until we played Di Maria up front and redefined striking shitness anyway. You can't help wondering if we'd have more points now if we'd fielded the likes of Bony, Pelle, Kane, Giroud, Valencia or even Andy bloody Carroll instead!
Not that I would want any of those strikers at United but in my 30 something years watching the club I've got used to watching us play with strikers as good as anyone else in the league. Really boils my piss watching how far off the pace our current crop are, while someone who might go down as most prolific goal-scorer ever is forced to bumble around in midfield, spanking cross-field passes to wing-backs and having running battles with the opposition and the ref.
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Actually, this is interesting. Whilst I agree that their pedigree might not be there, just look at what Louis Saha did for us whilst surrounded by excellent talent from deeper positions. He was given the freedom to play his own game and put himself about in the same fashion he would do for any club. He might not quite have scored a goal every other game and not in the brilliant manner that the likes of Van Persie or Falcao might - but it enabled others to play off him and excel.
A higher caliber example is probably Tevez. A dynamic player who would work his balls off up front, creating chances and space for us, working off everyone else and having people working off him.
Just to back up my rant with some numbers. Yesterday Van Persie attempted 16 passes, playing for a team that enjoyed 60% of the possession. His opposite number, Pelle, attempted 35 passes. I mean, come on...
What's their chance conversion rate this season? That's what I'd like to know.
From VG's perspective it makes sense, doesn't it? let's play united's most dynamic midfielder upfront, who can drive through the middle. And play our best striker in midfield, Wow this is a great philosophy VG is cooking up.
If VG was a surgeon, he would have our heart where our liver is, our liver where our kidneys are, and our kidneys where our intestines are at. Along with our arms on our legs, and our legs where our arms are, let's see that human body walk eat and drink properly
I dont think they're overrated, just each needs to be the lone striker, and the play tailored to each individuals strenghts
SAF was a master at that he used to get best out of Rooney, hernandez, rvp,and alot of our other strikers
SAF was a master at that he used to get best out of Rooney, hernandez, rvp,and alot of our other strikers
According to Squawka's stats (only have this season and 2 previous seasons), non-penalty shots/attempts inside the box conversion rate: RVP 15.5% this season. Last season 17%. His first season at United 20%. Falcao is currently 18.7%. In his final season at Athletico he was at 23%.
Mata (takes very few shots inside the box) but converts at 25% this season, 23.5% last season. Rooney is at an incredible 38.8% this season, last season 16%, the previous season 22%.
Departed United strikers Welbeck 22.5% last season (10% in PL this season, much higher in the CL). Hernandez last season 22%. The previous season 27%.
Figures for star strikers: this season Diego Costa 30%. Harry Kane 28.6%. Ronaldo 32%. Last season Sturridge 26.6%. Suarez 23%.
Figures for seemingly ordinary strikers: Berahino 20% Ulloa 24% Charlie Austin 20% Cisse of Newcastle is interesting as his figures fluctuate wildly from astonishing to inept 38% this season 2.5% last 11% the season before.
Obviously there are several other aspects of a forwards play that are worth taking into consideration, not just their ability to finish chances. Kun Aguero for instance is converting at around 19% yet taking an incredible average 5 shots inside the box per match. Having said that, it is not clear from the data, what RVP is meant to be good at currently (staying fit and getting selected ?). Falcao is doing well at providing assists.
Shooting from outside the box is a low percentage play unless it is a direct free-kick or the keeper's sight is blocked by other players (Daley Blind and Rooney both scored this season as the keeper couldn't see the shot).
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While you're not wrong, i still think it's a bit unfair. I agree that both RvP and Falcao have been dissapointing this season, but you can't hide the fact that we really struggle to create good chances in 352. Heck, we hardly get the ball in dangerous positions in that god awful formation. Something i noticed this year especially: Our strikers recieve the ball, back against goal and against a fully settled defence.
This. Thanks. Came into this thread after reading title, saw this line on top of the page and nothing more needs to be said in this thread imo. Didn't even read further part of your post too
Do we have the most over rated attackers in the league??
Let me ask you all this as i am really scratching my brains.
Does anybody remember the last time we got in behind a defence?
Here lies the problem - it doesn't matter that everybody assumes our strikers are slow (a critisism i think is over used) they should still be allowed (yes allowed LVG) to make runs in behind the defence. If its well timed and the pass is accurate then they are in on goal. The problem lies solely with the tactics.
Im fed up of hearing about our lack of pace upfront. Our strikers are not exactly slugs and real football is not FIFA ultimate team. The value of pace can be important, but it doesnt have to be if things are done correctly.
RVP and Falcao are predators. Give them chances and they will run riot. Play to their strengths.
Let me ask you all this as i am really scratching my brains.
Does anybody remember the last time we got in behind a defence?
Here lies the problem - it doesn't matter that everybody assumes our strikers are slow (a critisism i think is over used) they should still be allowed (yes allowed LVG) to make runs in behind the defence. If its well timed and the pass is accurate then they are in on goal. The problem lies solely with the tactics.
Im fed up of hearing about our lack of pace upfront. Our strikers are not exactly slugs and real football is not FIFA ultimate team. The value of pace can be important, but it doesnt have to be if things are done correctly.
RVP and Falcao are predators. Give them chances and they will run riot. Play to their strengths.
The lack of chances excuse rings a bit hollow when you play a formation that (horrible as it is) gives you the luxury of playing two strikers at once. In theory, they should be creating chances for each other.
Overrated, no and yes.
RvP hasn't been the same since SAF's retirement - maybe that was his "peak" year? He's still capable of the genius, but it's becoming too few and far between.
Falcao world class at his best, but since his injury he's been nowhere near his best and there's no guarantee he'll ever get to that level again.
Rooney - probably the best of the 3 currently (meaning most "in form"), but he's being played out of position.
AdM - world class in a certain role. Hasn't been played in that role in a while, injury playing a part and all.
Mata - very good, bordering world class at Chelsea, but also in a certain role/system. Team not currently built around him or to get the best out of him.
So yeah, our attack should be (and I think it will improve in 2nd half of season as players play together more often) creating more chances then they currently are - and once we get the balance and formation right, I'm confident it will happen.
1 of RvP/Falcao + Rooney up top in a 4-4-2 is definitely our strongest lineup.
So do we have the most overrated attack? Not really. But we have one of the most unbalanced attacks in the league, for sure. Put any one of Falcao/RvP in the Pool/Arsenal/Chelsea side and they'd definitely have a few more goals IMO.
RvP hasn't been the same since SAF's retirement - maybe that was his "peak" year? He's still capable of the genius, but it's becoming too few and far between.
Falcao world class at his best, but since his injury he's been nowhere near his best and there's no guarantee he'll ever get to that level again.
Rooney - probably the best of the 3 currently (meaning most "in form"), but he's being played out of position.
AdM - world class in a certain role. Hasn't been played in that role in a while, injury playing a part and all.
Mata - very good, bordering world class at Chelsea, but also in a certain role/system. Team not currently built around him or to get the best out of him.
So yeah, our attack should be (and I think it will improve in 2nd half of season as players play together more often) creating more chances then they currently are - and once we get the balance and formation right, I'm confident it will happen.
1 of RvP/Falcao + Rooney up top in a 4-4-2 is definitely our strongest lineup.
So do we have the most overrated attack? Not really. But we have one of the most unbalanced attacks in the league, for sure. Put any one of Falcao/RvP in the Pool/Arsenal/Chelsea side and they'd definitely have a few more goals IMO.
That really shows how important balance is to an attacking unit. If you start several players together, who have similar strength or want to occupy the same space on the pitch, you'll hurt all of them, force them either out of position or have them stand on each others feet and share their normal output instead of adding their individual output together. Doesn't matter how great they're individually, an attacking unit with individually weaker players, who complement each other very well, will outperform them. The Rooney - van Persie partnership never looked like it could work, it was always one or the other who performed well, never both of them together and there's evidence for it under 3 different managers now. Adding Falcao to the team made it even worse.
The strikers are not overrated, I think LVG is the overrated one and I hate his fecking 3-5-2. If Ancelotti can make it work with Ronaldo, Bale, Rodriguez, Benzema, Isco then Van Gaal can do it with our set of players, he has been heavily indulged by Manchester United, they have given him everything he wants from the training pitch to player recruitment, he needs to deliver now and find a system that suits these players.
So our most prolific goal-scorer this season, soon to be our most prolific goal-scorer ever, is playing in central fecking midfield. A position he doesn't enjoy and isn't particularly good at (despite being a bigger goalthreat than our actual strikers) Absolutely bananas. That's the sort of shit that asks serious questions about a manager's competence.
Yep. Although, under our playstyle this season we do seem to give more opportunities to our midfield than ever before. We're shooting from outside the box more than ever and when you consider a good chunk of goals split between Mata, Di Maria, Herrera, Fellaini, Blind (14) and Rooney (22) it raises concerns to me over our inability to create for the forwards. It feels like we pin them back and whilst never being able to free the striker or give them the ball in a good position, it allows the midfielders to come onto balls in shooting range.
Not to disagree with your general point. Just something to add that I think is worth considering.
It raises concerns for me about the quality of our forwards, full stop. We play two up top. They should be capable of linking up to create and score goals without needing them put on a plate by midfielders.
We saw glimpses of that earlier on in the season but absolutely nothing in the last few games they played.
Yep, when we assembled the lineup it was such an amazing strikeforce based on reputation and the past. But none have hit close to top form at all, in all honesty they look like merely decent strikers judging on recent matches. Sometimes all you need is pace up top and it solves problems.
Van Persie and Rooney couldn't work together either.. I'm not sure that it's fair to question their quality purely on an inability to work together.
They've both played almost their entire careers as the 'main man' up front where they have all the space to themselves. They would make runs towards near or back post on instinct but now they're constantly hesitating, scared of stepping on toes or getting into 'eachothers zones'.
When you then consider the pressure on both to perform whilst both in individual slumps then I just can't see them working together particularly well. At the started they were desperate to prove they could work together, they wanted the other player to score - I'm not sure that's there anymore.
Van Persie showed glimpses of possible form returning when left up top alone for a while.. As soon as that became 2 he lost it again.
Yep, I don't see why we do not get more combination goals like Yorke and Cole. How hard is it to make a 1-2 with a team mate?. I think the problem is they are both "natural" goal scorers who look to score first, and pass later. I guess they are in it for themselves more.
It doesn't really matter if the issue is picking a front two who don't complement each other or picking a front two who simply aren't good enough. It's not working and we shouldn't be putting all the blame on our midfielders.
No one has done that.
My point was that the system does seem to encourage goals from deep whilst restricting those from in the box. I'm not saying our strikers couldn't do more, I definitely think they could - but I'd be interested to see how many goals Rooney had in this team up top. I'm not necessarily sure it'd be a great deal more.
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It's mental how few really top centre forwards there are out there. If, hypothetically, we got rid of Falcao this summer (and maybe RvP) who can you buy in the world class bracket? As far as I can tell the only world class centre forwards out there are either coming up to, if not past their best, or pretty much impossible to buy from their current clubs. Maybe the likes of Cavani, a player who hasn't been in good form for quite a while. Then you're down to buying a player to try make them world class. Who fits that bracket? That Palermo strike Dybala is being highly touted. Can't think of that many more, though, albeit I'll admit I'm not really an authority on European football.
It's definitely an issue. I actually thought at the start of the season (before Falcao was bought) that we may see Van Gaal try to play without a conventional striker. It's something that we could have seen with Rooney who I think Van Gaal would have encouraged to roam and drop (as he does anyway).
I'd take someone like Cavani. I'm ok with some fight and dynamism up top, someone who works there bollocks off. Another Tevez. I'd take a lower goal scoring record for someone who offers a lot to the team and players can work off. With the talent and quality we have from deeper positions, I'm not sure we necessarily need a 30 goal man.
The tempo and type of system and quality of player on show was far better balanced. When yorke And Cole had Neville Irwin Keane scholes beckham and giggs all getting forward, it gives yorke and Cole the help to score those goals. Plus fergie never had United overplaying from the back, it was quick and always looking to hurt teams