Do we have enough goals in the squad?

Westerkerk said:
The winning mentality that has been ingrained into the modern fabric of this club has been so severely eroded since SAF retired that it's now just a whisper on the fecking wind. The players don't have it and the manager certainly doesn't. Who even knows if the owners have it. Judging from decisions over the summer, I'd be hesitant to say they do.

We've needed to invest in a top class striker for a while, but haven't bothered going all in for one. Thus we are left with a team that has no desire to win, made up players who can't reliably score goals.

There's progress here, if you look hard enough, but feck me it's frustrating.
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I think with Ineos it’s a lack of funds as you have to stay within the bounds of ffp. Needing 2 CD stopped us buying the Palace winger who went to Bayern (can’t recall the name), who went were linked with last season. We need to find the next Mbappe as JR said and I think this is going well at 18 and under, but not helping the team presently.
 
We do not and I am sure it will be addressed in Jan/next summer
 
I think Garnacho can contribute a lot more to goals this season. He gets in dangerous positions. The clinical side will hopefully follow soon. What worries me is having a ST that won’t get 15+ goals a season. And because we don’t we need a wide player like Salah who consistently gets a ton of goals to make up for it.
 
No, but then we were never going to be able to fix everything in one Summer.

I think the executive team were right to start with fixing the defence. Clean sheets are higher EV than goals scored in terms of points won.

Garnacho can and will start to contribute more goals as he matures. I do still think Hojlund will end up being good for 15+ in the PL, which is very decent without penalties.

I know I'm a broken record on this but Rashford really needs to go. This season should be a gradual phase-out with a view to moving him on in the Summer. You can't build successful teams with players who go on such long barren runs.

This is also a big season for Amad. He's clearly favoured to start over Anthony but he really needs to be scoring 10 goals from that wide AMR position if he's to nail that spot down long term.
 
We have several players that can score goals, but we don't really have any players that are dedicated goalscorers, and that are the finished product (or close to it). If Højlund develops he could become that, but right now he is not ready. And then we combine that with our rather average ability to create chances, we will end up with too few goals.

Compare us to Arsenal, and they are sort of in the same situation on the first part (not having a dedicated goalscorer), but their overall play is just so much better that they still score plenty from their wingers and midfielders to make up for it. I don't think they had a player scoring above 12 goals from open play in the PL last year, but they still got +90 goals total.
 
We have barely enough if players have above average seasons.
Expectation wise, in the league -
Hojlund - 15
Rashford - 20
Bruno - 10
Garnacho - 15
Amad -10

That gets us to 70 goals. The others can and should chip in with another 10-15 in total, taking the total to 80+.

I wouldn't say that's a bad shout. But still doubt whether each player can hit that target.
 
Players such as Bruno, Rashford, Antony are seasoned players with years of experience in them and are proven to be capable to produce goals, so their combined 30 goals should be ok on paper.
Garnacho, Amad, Hojlund, Zirkzee are all coming through younger players who should be getting better and better every game on and should be all combined aim for 30 goals also.
There should be random 10 goals coming from players of the squad at our level. That all should add around 70. I don't think it's enough to compete for 4 yet, but that is that all the younger players should be capable to get more than it's expected from them - at least some of them.

Realistic it is to achieve 70-75 goals per league campaign atm. Everything over it is positive, everything under is worrying.
 
People in here making arguments as if we're just a top striker away from matching the top teams. The truth is we're outscored by teams with much worse attacking talent, that fundamental issue needs to be resolved before looking at 'oh we just need a top striker'.
 
Scored 5 and missed 17 big chances. If we just scored 5 of them things would be looking very different in here but the signs are good, no?
 
Smores said:
People in here making arguments as if we're just a top striker away from matching the top teams. The truth is we're outscored by teams with much worse attacking talent, that fundamental issue needs to be resolved before looking at 'oh we just need a top striker'.
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Or maybe our attacking talent is overrated? Maybe they need to develop for another year or two? Would Höjlund, Zirkzee, Amad, Garnacho, and Rashford be starting games for City, Arsenal or Liverpool? Or is it a lack of service? Our xG is pretty good this season.
 
Cassidy said:
We do not and I am sure it will be addressed in Jan/next summer
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Won't be addressed in January due to lack of options, we wouldn't have such a problem with goals IF we actually had midfielders and wingers who delivered goals regularly like Arsenal have. That's how they manage to get away with not having a proven striker.
 
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croadyman said:
Won't be addressed in January due to lack of options, we wouldn't have such a problem with goals IF we actually had midfielders and wingers who delivered goals regularly like Arsenal have. That's how they manage to get away with not having a proven striker.
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I don’t agree regarding Jan. I suspect we can go for our younger targets whilst leaving any well established targets till summer. I am including wingers and midfielders in that
 
Cathy Ferguson said:
Or maybe our attacking talent is overrated? Maybe they need to develop for another year or two? Would Höjlund, Zirkzee, Amad, Garnacho, and Rashford be starting games for City, Arsenal or Liverpool? Or is it a lack of service? Our xG is pretty good this season.
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Missed the point entirely, it doesn't matter that our players wouldn't start for City Arsenal and Liverpool. That isn't the immediate challenge.

12 teams have scored more than us so far (8 last season) do they all have better players than us?
 
Smores said:
Missed the point entirely, it doesn't matter that our players wouldn't start for City Arsenal and Liverpool. That isn't the immediate challenge.

12 teams have scored more than us so far (8 last season) do they all have better players than us?
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Nope, our players are overrated.
 
I think if you want to go the Liverpool route of having a a false 9 to lead your line, you need your wing forward to be good goalscorers. Now we have 2 playmakers in Amad and Zirkzee, and only one of Rashford/Garnacho. If Amad play then we need to play Hojlund. If Zirkzee played then Rashford and Garnacho needs to play together
 
ETH has one chance and one chance only to get his team taking their chances and he needs to do the following ;

1. Pick his best all round 11 and stick to it
2. Make sure he picks an attacking bench and explain he looking for consistency in attack with goals and assists, we need to add Bruno/Mount/Mainoo and Eriksen to the front 6 and set goal and assist targets.
3. Get the Chido obi deal done asap and start picking Wheatley and Biancari or Chido obi Martin, I want to see two of those three on every 12 man sub bench we have in Europa League.
4. Zirkzee is the key play him as the false 9 let Ramus on right inside striker and Rashford left inside striker start as a 3, drop Bruno play Eriksen or Mount at 10 and Ugarte and Mainoo in a double pivot.
Then use Amad, Bruno and Garnaucho from the bench, if they do the business then next game rotate
5. Dropping Rashford this Saturday was crazy just as he started looking back to his best, he’s the only current striker that we have that has scored over 15 PL goals.
6. Bruno needs to up his game massively or start from the bench, Mount needs to start justifying the £55m investment and both need be told what’s expected of them.
7. De Ligt looks like a huge upgrade for our defence getting goals, in some games we can use Maguire and De Ligt as targets for set pieces, however you need Eriksen taking the corners and free kicks.
8. Let Amad and Rashford take free kicks around the opposition penalty area we have not scored a direct free kick for a long time.


ETH team have no confidence, when they get a little he somehow manages to destroy it internally, who takes free kicks, why are we missing big chances so frequently, this season United are top with 17 big chances missed followed by Villa at 12, we take the difference and the team scores 5 more goals and probably has 10 or 12 points from the first 5 games and everyone saying it was a masterstroke that Ineos kept him and changed his coaching staff.

He desperately needs a win on Wednesday and 4 points from next two PL games just to fend off the British media and certain proportion of our fan base, otherwise I feel that by the end of October he’ll be gone!
 
Goals come with confidence. Confidence comes with results. If we start stringing together wins we'll start scoring for fun.

I think this team has lots of goals in it, we just need that bit of confidence.
 
Having young inexperienced players means you are going to have to be a bit patient while they develop.

Comparing the goal scoring stats of the current United with the multi title winning City team or the sort of finished article Arsenal team is a waste of time.

I do think Bruno's slow start to the season is a big problem as straight away United are relying on the 19-21 year olds to bang in the goals.

Let's hope Rashford can get a couple in the EL midweek and take that form into the league asap.
 
We beat a team 7-0 only a few games ago. Yes, we've drawn blanks in a few games, but the chances are being created.

It might have been crucial in the last game benching a confidence player who had just scored two nice goals to go with a goal in the previous away game. I am not sure how many coaches out there would have 'rested' Marcus Rashford after he'd just performed two games in succession. It's a no-brainer to play him when he's on song.

Erik is sometimes guilty of trying to be too cute and just not going for the obvious option. Barnsley could have given us some momentum but he tinkered too much. We should not have failed to score there.

All that being said, we are creating chances and that should eventually pay dividends.
 
Cassidy said:
I don’t agree regarding Jan. I suspect we can go for our younger targets whilst leaving any well established targets till summer. I am including wingers and midfielders in that
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Maybe someone like a Nypan, no chance Atalanta would sell Ederson if through to knockouts of Champions League but that's a tough ask.
 
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Rojofiam said:
Hojlund is a "proper striker" and a great one at that. What's not serious about mentioning him?
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Well if you think he’s a striker for the biggest club in the world then I fear for your mental health.
Ask yourself this, will Liverpool, Arsenal and City, let alone R Madrid and Barcelona and other big clubs around Europe not forgetting Aston Villa have him in their squad?
Answer, NO.
If he’s not good enough for them then what are we doing with him?
 
Melville Red said:
Well if you think he’s a striker for the biggest club in the world then I fear for your mental health.
Ask yourself this, will Liverpool, Arsenal and City, let alone R Madrid and Barcelona and other big clubs around Europe not forgetting Aston Villa have him in their squad?
Answer, NO.
If he’s not good enough for them then what are we doing with him?
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Liverpool - Darwin
Arsenal - Jesus
City - don't have anyone to back up Haaland

Very harsh on Hojlund.
 
LDUred said:
We beat a team 7-0 only a few games ago. Yes, we've drawn blanks in a few games, but the chances are being created.
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If we'll be taking results against average League One teams too seriously, I think we're in trouble. Creating chances and scoring goals against Barnsley in the league cup is not really comparable to doing that in the league.
 
IrishRedDevil said:
Liverpool - Darwin
Arsenal - Jesus
City - don't have anyone to back up Haaland

Very harsh on Hojlund.
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Very true though, the simple fact is we need a top striker. Our midfield and wide players need to have someone they can play the ball to, when they cross they need to know that there will be someone in the area with a proper strikers instinct to get on the end of it and put the ball in the net.
Utd sadly lack that and are playing with midfielders who also have to act as strikers, that’s why come the 70th plus minute Eric is making substitutions because every one is knackered and we ended up conceding goals or as seen against Palace settle for a 0-0 after dominating and doing everything bar score a goal.
 
When we made the decision to go for Hojlund instead of Kane, we accepted we weren't going to be getting someone at that level straight away. As our manager explicitly said:

You have to build and you have to accept that you get talent in instead of players who already proved it in the past. We have had some choices made with talents like Rasmus Hojlund. I can see a striker who already proved it, who we want to sign and we couldn't get him. And then we went to Rasmus because he's a talent.

You know Harry Kane will get you 30 goals. I think Rasmus will get there, but he needs time. It's not fair to assess him the same as Harry Kane. I would never compare two players because they are very different. But with Hojlund, I think we had the biggest potential in the striker position last summer and we are very happy with him. But he also needs time to adapt. [....] Then you go back to the fans and the opinion makers, and they don't understand or they don't want to understand this. It is how Man United gets judged, they only see the result, but we need time. You have to accept the process is going slower and you can't then expect to straight [away] compete for titles in the Champions League and Premier League.”
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So the "we need to get a top striker" argument is kinda pointless.

The club knew we needed a top striker, accepted that there wasn't one available, backed Hojlund to become one in the medium/long term at the cost of short term pain, and that decision still has to play out. Added to that, they've since signed another young striker who also needs time before we can judge his potential longer term impact.

If you don't like the approach of targeting potential in that position for medium/long term gain at the cost of short-term pain then that's fine, but it's what we're doing and there's no reason to think we're going to suddenly deviate from that. We're not going to buy some other much better, much more proven CF to jump in ahead of Holjund/Zirkzee in the pecking order, so we just have to live with the growing pains of backing young players.

From that medium term view the more obvious place to add to the attack next is out wide. Antony is taking up a place in the squad while offering zero output, Sancho has been loaned out to a rival club and Rashford obviously has ongoing question marks around him. If/when these players finally move on, we can look to buy more goals into the team. While expecting young players like Hojlund, Garnacho, Zirkzee and Amad produce more as they develop.
 
sullydnl said:
When we made the decision to go for Hojlund instead of Kane, we accepted we weren't going to be getting someone at that level straight away. As our manager explicitly said:



So the "we need to get a top striker" argument is kinda pointless.

The club knew we needed a top striker, accepted that there wasn't one available, backed Hojlund to become one in the medium/long term at the cost of short term pain, and that decision still has to play out. Added to that, they've since signed another young striker who also needs time before we can judge his potential longer term impact.

If you don't like the approach of targeting potential in that position for medium/long term gain at the cost of short-term pain then that's fine, but it's what we're doing and there's no reason to think we're going to suddenly deviate from that. We're not going to buy some other much better, much more proven CF to jump in ahead of Holjund/Zirkzee in the pecking order, so we just have to live with the growing pains of backing young players.

From that medium term view the more obvious place to add to the attack next is out wide. Antony is taking up a place in the squad while offering zero output, Sancho has been loaned out to a rival club and Rashford obviously has ongoing question marks around him. If/when these players finally move on, we can look to buy more goals into the team. While expecting young players like Hojlund, Garnacho, Zirkzee and Amad produce more as they develop.
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Well said
 
Every club could make a edit like this tbf but to miss sooo many chances in just a handful of games...really is frustraing.

 
LDUred said:
We beat a team 7-0 only a few games ago. Yes, we've drawn blanks in a few games, but the chances are being created.

It might have been crucial in the last game benching a confidence player who had just scored two nice goals to go with a goal in the previous away game. I am not sure how many coaches out there would have 'rested' Marcus Rashford after he'd just performed two games in succession. It's a no-brainer to play him when he's on song.

Erik is sometimes guilty of trying to be too cute and just not going for the obvious option. Barnsley could have given us some momentum but he tinkered too much. We should not have failed to score there.

All that being said, we are creating chances and that should eventually pay dividends.
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I like your main point, which is that we have been producing chances, even lots of chances in 4 out of 6 games. That is the one thing that can predictably be affected by training methods, tactics and team cohesion. No team underscores their ExG by very significant amounts over the course of a season, but from game to game it may vary wildly.

I don’t agree so much with your certainty about starting Rashford vs CP. So be it that many both fans and experts had been talking about how he should not be a regular atarter based on this seasons form, they might be wrong, they might not. Still, Rashford scoring twice against Barnsley is an argument in his favor, but Garnacho (a goal/assist every 41 mins at that point) and Amad (most creative player against several of our PL opponents statistically, including six key passes vs Southampton) had probably even better arguments. An expectation of CP playing low block with counters would also not necessarily favor Rashford in this game, compared to what the two others plus Zirkzee can contribute in high press chance creation.

I also think the choice was borne out by the starting eleven producing eight or nine goal scoring opportunities in the first half, while the team was alot less productive with Rashford either as a striker or as a wide forward. There are several reasons for that, but I think it’s a bit speculative to think that playing Rashford ahead of any of the other three would have worked completely different, and certainly not a ‘no-brainer’.

But all in all, due to form/age I think we should accept that we have a less efficient squad for the time being, as long as our general play and chance creation continues in this vein. As several people has pointed out - it is clearly a club choice to go for long term rather than short term gains by placing much of the weight on young players like Garnacho, Højlund, Amad, Zirkzee and Mainoo. You canmlike the strategy or not, but it makes very little sense to expect short term perfection so long as that is the case.

For me, I’m very happy if we continue to play as we have in the majority of the games vs Fulham, Southampton, Barnsley and Crystal Palace. It’s great to watch, and that way is bound to lead to better and better output in the long run.
 
Zirkzee behind Hojlund does seem to be an obvious route to improve this. Zirkzee's creativity has been excellent, his finishing shoddy. Bruno's been inconsistent on chance-creation, poor with finishing. Hojlund is a natural finisher. So get Zirkzee laying up the chances and Hojlund finishing them. Bruno supersub until he demonstrates the ability to score his chances again.
 
There are a lot of unknown variables we are relying on for us to be able to score goals. Zirkzee and Hojlund who couldn’t get up to 15 goals in serie a to come to the PL and level up. Rashford to regain his 2022 form. Garnacho to go up another level. Amad to adapt to the PL like it’s the championship. And then there’s Antony.

We need at least 3 of these players to make the step up that we’ve never seen them do….but it’s possible
 
I think the team has more goals in it, than it did last season, purely by including Zirkzee, who I think will come really good.

Right now, I believe it comes down to how well Hoijlund fits in. He's going to have to come good this season and at least show he's got that potential to be a top striker.
 
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