I mean we would be absolutely fecking stupid if even after winning the treble (so much winning money available) we wouldn’t outspend everyone else for at least a couple of seasons. Veron and Ferdinand were in the years after we had won the treble.
Do City leave you cold?
- Thread starter Pogue Mahone
- Start date
This argument is stupid to me. When you pay for your groceries the single largest cost item doesn't matter. It's about total spend, not individual buys.
Yeah, but that analogy doesn't work in this context.
If you have the money to buy the one thing that everyone else wants (prime cut beef), and that thing gives you a competitive advantage (in theory), it doesn't matter that you have to be a bit careful about buying bread and potatoes as long as the other feckers don't get the beef.
Or something.
Anyway, this is about two things:
1) The ability to get top targets (not be financially muscled out by your rivals for top targets)
and
2) Wages. There's a fairly reliable pattern here. The team that pays the most, wins the most. There are exceptions, but the rule is a rule for a reason.
(And yes, I am very much aware of the fact that United are, in fact, such an exception for multiple seasons in the post-SAF era - but that's kinda the point when assessing the Glazers/Woodward, etc.)
Righto.
But they also had the biggest spend overall in the decade before the treble as well. So in fact, my point that United were outspending all of their rivals during that dominant period isn't a myth, as was suggested.
Individual brilliance is the main reason I, and I’d image a lot of football fans fell in love with Football. Watching the Galacticos team of Madrid with Ronaldo leading the line, the 2002 Brazil team with Ronaldinho announcing himself to the World, Kaka tearing Evra and I think Heinze apart at OT and then Robben doing as he pleased with defenders.
City have had some incredible players under Guardiola, and their football has been clinical in its effectiveness, but it all feels very monotonous to me.
Even this season with Haaland having the insane season he has, it’s felt less like an incredible individual performance and more like a nitrous oxide canister strapped to the engine of a 1000bhp Bugatti.
I’m aware this comes across as sour grapes, and I’m in no way suggesting that City fans shouldn’t revel in their teams total dominance, but from the outside looking in, it almost feels as though there’s no jeopardy for them. They completely dominate possession leaving any team they face fighting for scraps in terms of being able to generate chances with the few bits of possession they can fight away from City.
Terrible predicament to be in as a United fan, but this season for me really drives home how incredible Klopp’s Liverpool were at their peak, totally chaotic, players able to express themselves, an attitude where ‘if you score 3 we’ll score 4’ and overall just a much more entertaining team to watch, albeit through gritted teeth.
City have had some incredible players under Guardiola, and their football has been clinical in its effectiveness, but it all feels very monotonous to me.
Even this season with Haaland having the insane season he has, it’s felt less like an incredible individual performance and more like a nitrous oxide canister strapped to the engine of a 1000bhp Bugatti.
I’m aware this comes across as sour grapes, and I’m in no way suggesting that City fans shouldn’t revel in their teams total dominance, but from the outside looking in, it almost feels as though there’s no jeopardy for them. They completely dominate possession leaving any team they face fighting for scraps in terms of being able to generate chances with the few bits of possession they can fight away from City.
Terrible predicament to be in as a United fan, but this season for me really drives home how incredible Klopp’s Liverpool were at their peak, totally chaotic, players able to express themselves, an attitude where ‘if you score 3 we’ll score 4’ and overall just a much more entertaining team to watch, albeit through gritted teeth.
It has been shown time and time again including in this thread as well as in others - recently in the club sale thread - that United were not the biggest spenders in the 90s. For detailed information you can see the numbers on transfermarkt.
From 1992/93 to 99/00 United were the 4th biggest spenders in the PL era. Newcastle, Liverpool and Blackburn spent more. In that order.
In the same period United were also the 4th biggest net spenders. Liverpool, Newcastle and Chelsea spent more. In that order.
After that in the early 00s for a couple of seasons we indeed most likely outspent everyone else until Roman came in 2003.
Well if it isnt untrue if you actually look it up on the internet and there's @Kelly15 post too. You can speak about yourself and supposed 'vast majority of fans' but I would be upset if my club would win titles based on irregularities.
Sadly I would have to agree with this. There was certainly something that felt more authentic about that Liverpool squad - despite the insufferable demeanour of Klopp, though nobody can tell me they wouldn’t have wanted him here - that contrasts heavily with City and the general feeling of ambivalence I have towards their success.
It hurt me to watch Liverpool win the league* but I genuinely find it hard to get too upset by City blowing everyone away, even with their recent CL* victory.
I have to agree, in a parallel universe, forcing myself to be a neutral, I would find Liverpool success much more enjoyable and authentic than what City offers nowadays.
Being so close to failing and then winning is surely much more memorable than the way City are winning that's a certainty.
Clinical calculated football is boring, that's City in a nutshell. To be fair the way they won the league the season before the one just gone, on the last day, had so much more magic to it, even though it felt like a formality once they scored, because it was exciting. So much of this treble win lacked drama, it was a procession.
For as sickening as watching those few seasons of Liverpool winning everything were, it was a lot more the sort of football and story I could relate to and say fair enough, as much as I wanted them to get thrashed every single second they stepped on a football pitch.
For as sickening as watching those few seasons of Liverpool winning everything were, it was a lot more the sort of football and story I could relate to and say fair enough, as much as I wanted them to get thrashed every single second they stepped on a football pitch.
I can enjoy Liverpool playing football (and this season even Arsenal) - as much as I hate them. I rarely enjoy watching City play
Fair enough. My opinion is that the money spent at the top level by the top 10% of clubs is so beyond reality, the whole thing is becoming fairly unpalatable. FFP was seemingly designed to ensure some sort of level playing field, which it doesn't do, and to (you would assume) protect the game from itself, which having watched Forest spend £200 plus million to finish a place or two above relegation last season, it also evidently doesn't do. To me, whether a club spends £100 million on a player which was self generated through TV money or whatever, or whether an owner puts it in is an arbitrary distinction. The whole modern PL is a house of cards with, I suspect half the sides a bad season or two away from financially imploding.
As per a previous post, it's why I now feel much more connected to my local football league club than I do to United.
City aren’t really a footballing or local success, and their journey to get where they are now isn’t all that inspiring.
They’re the Ivan Drago of football, and people generally prefer the Rocky sort.
They’re the Ivan Drago of football, and people generally prefer the Rocky sort.
(Trying my best to ask the following question as a football fan, rather than a Utd fan)
Why does City continue to do these things? these wierd balloons...
Didn't they have enough of the images of so few fans coming to see their parades, balloons, whatever?
Why does City continue to do these things? these wierd balloons...
Didn't they have enough of the images of so few fans coming to see their parades, balloons, whatever?
I watched The United Way again as it was on Sky.
Very emotional watching the Treble and how they linked it to the past.
Would be interested to know how genuine City fans view their treble?
Very emotional watching the Treble and how they linked it to the past.
Would be interested to know how genuine City fans view their treble?
We will all be able to relate in a few years time when we win our Quatar funded treble. It will be glorious.
To answer the headline question, yes. I would rather we get success by having a great coach who improves players in the team including those coming through the academy, by making them better than the sum of their parts. If the United team was just an invincible efficient steamroller, I think it would kind of make it quite meaningless after a while.
If we were contending for Top 4 and maybe winning once in about 5 years, that would be the sweet spot for me. But looking at how Teams like City, Newcastle and Chelsea have been spending, I really don't know if we are faced with the if you can't beat them, join them scenario now.
If we were contending for Top 4 and maybe winning once in about 5 years, that would be the sweet spot for me. But looking at how Teams like City, Newcastle and Chelsea have been spending, I really don't know if we are faced with the if you can't beat them, join them scenario now.
We started to dominate the pl in 1992 before our big spending started. By the time we started to splash the cash, we won the title every year except twice. If anything it shows how good pur transfer business was during that period. Our net spent from 92-98 is staggering. SAF was a genius.
1992-1998 net spend
Newcastle: £40,570,000 (> 4000% more than United)
Arsenal: £31,070,000 (> 3100% more than United)
Liverpool: £29,625,000 (> 2900% more than United spent)
Chelsea: £27,705,000 (> 2700% more than United spent)
Spurs: £18,630,000 (> 1800% more than United spent)
City: £12,070,000 (> 1200% more than United spent)
United: -£40,000
And if you go by year, we have never been the biggest spenders. He is a year by year graph of the pl biggest spenders. Again, what you are saying is a myth.
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If Qatar owners at United cheat for over a decade it would be comparable.
You must not have enjoyed the SAF days very much then
I am easily satisfied. I watched United from when we were losing to Ipswich Town 6-0. The SAF days which followed were like a dream.
Whatever they’ve achieved or will achieve essentially doesn’t even count. City are the Lance Armstrong of football.
This more or less sums up City. No fecker in the media or people I know “IRL” are even talking about their treble. And it was only a few weeks ago when they won it?
I find City completely inoffensive. They want us to hate them but I don’t. I have no feelings toward them really, they’re just a tinpot club which won the lottery.
Liverpool winning a treble would have really, really hurt me. I wouldn’t have been able to get over that.
I'm not bothered about City. Like a lot of young fans in the 1970's I used to go watch City when United were away from home. Even then I realised how mediocre they were and didn't feel they were a threat. Old Trafford and United had a real magic about it. Walking up to OT made the hair on the back of Your neck stand up. City never had that . When Our new Qatari overlords take over and effortlessly blow City out of the water the status quo will be restored.
Just have to point out that in the 70's, City finished higher than United 6 times in that decade. Though of course, Utd were relegated in 1974 so I admit it would have been difficult for you finish above us in 1975 :-)
I love football even at the depths presently inhabited by my team Scunny. Like many small town fans, I had a second team - mine was always and always will be United. I never saw football more exciting, more off your feet and out of your mind than that played by Best, Charlton and Law. Wow. Wow. Wow. Does City's football leave me cold? Not at all. It's great, a joy to watch. I hope and pray to see a United that can play them off the park (and it won't be Scunny)!
Why is there so much bitterness on here about your city rivals. I thought they were the Bertie’s. They seem to be a well run organisation and their transfer dealings make yours look distinctly average. The takeover shenanigans just sums up how far you’ve declined since Ferguson. Now the 1958 group is protesting outside the club shop tomorrow presumably after buying their shirts for next season. And what idiot would name a group after a tragic event
What a hypocrite, why would you want to be a dirty oil club? You’ll still be run like a pub team whoever takes over
Not sure if all those numbers/calculations are accurate, but yes, for the period you mentioned (91/92 - 97/98) the following clubs in England had a higher net spend than United, some even 2-5 times higher than United:
Newcastle, Liverpool, Arsenal, Spurs, Leeds, Chelsea, West Ham, Sheffield Wednesday, Middlesbrough, Everton, Manchester City, Aston Villa.
We then spent a lot in the summer of 98, but then again nothing/very little in the following two summers. So if you extend the period from 91/92 to 00/01 (this includes the summer of 98), United still only had the 9th highest total spend and only the 6th highest net spend in England.
By that time United had won among others the treble and 3 league titles in a row.
It‘s only in the period from 2001- 2003 that United were the biggest spenders. And then Chelsea took over the spending.
A lot of people including some United fans just assume that as United dominated the 90s and broke some British transfer records that must automatically mean they outspent everyone. But this could not be any further from truth.
Exactly.
We didn't need to spend much because we had a great spine for most of a decade and just needed refreshing a few players here and there. Exactly like Man City are doing now.
Teams like Liverpool were forced to spend a lot because their glorious era came to a close around the beginning of the PL. They had to reconstruct almost an entire team and struggled to do so. Exactly like we've been doing for a decade. The irony!
But to be fair, sweeping our spending exploits under "broke some British transfer records" is a bit cheeky. With very few exceptions, we could beat anyone with our transfer firepower and we often flexed our muscles in the market. It's just that we almost always got the big calls right (Pallister, Keane, Cole, Rio, Rooney, Berbatov) meaning we didn't need to gamble on mediocre players like we do these days.
The big thing for me about United has been the amount of players that came through our youth system that contributed to the team. That's what makes United so special to me. We developed our success and sprinkled it with some stardust. Under SAF we always had players from our academy contributing to our success. Same as Sir Matt.
Some of our best players came through our Academy. Sir Bobby Charlton, George Best, Giggs, Scholes. Plus others that were very important to the team. Gary and Phil Neville, Beckham, Butt, Mark Hughes, exct...to many to mention.
City bought their success so it doesn't have any romance to it. It feels hollow and cold. So yes. City leave me cold. And the way the world reacted to City winning the trebble shows nobody cares either. It doesn't bug me one bit. Now if Liverpool had done the same well that would of been a nightmare.
Some of our best players came through our Academy. Sir Bobby Charlton, George Best, Giggs, Scholes. Plus others that were very important to the team. Gary and Phil Neville, Beckham, Butt, Mark Hughes, exct...to many to mention.
City bought their success so it doesn't have any romance to it. It feels hollow and cold. So yes. City leave me cold. And the way the world reacted to City winning the trebble shows nobody cares either. It doesn't bug me one bit. Now if Liverpool had done the same well that would of been a nightmare.
No matter what they say, this must really rankle with them.
They've just done the treble but the coverage afterwards was to the minimum to say the least, and until I read this I'd forgotten about it.
I certainly can't see them reminiscing over it in 25 years time like our treble, more burying out of emabarrasment.
They are at the far end of the scale of clubs without any feeling or soul to them. I sometimes, just sometimes, feel for people who were real City supporters for ages, way before the takeover...
but there's also a general point to be had-
which is, in my opinion, that it must be harder for new fans of the game to so obsessively fall in love with team X as children / teenagers and become lifelong supporters to the same depths that 'we did'.
I might be talking out of my ass as I've no way to know how it feels, to be hooked into football for the first time in the 2020s.
But the game- at least the highest levels which are the relevant ones for anyone who supports one of the established CL teams as a broad point ot reference- has changed to such depths...
not only the shady owners, the state-backed teams, and the insane amounts of money involved... but also the football that's been dominant- this precise, systemized, brilliantly effective Pep-led football we see...
How the hell can you watch that brand of football and be amazed by the game to the same effect you did with Fergie's United, Wenger's Arsenal, Liverpool with the many moments Stevie Me gave their fans, Chelsea with that team led by Zola and also the iteration of the Mourinho guys and their annoying/inspiring character... and that's just the PL...
_________________________________
But, well...
it's only been a couple of years since the great Real and Barca teams of Messi and Ronaldo were in full swing,
there's no problem to fall in love with either of them in a heartbeat.
or Klopp's Liverpool at their pomp, sad as it is...
All this rant, and then to immediately start thinking to myself,
that it all has to do with how depressing it's been to be a United supporter for the past 10 years... Urgh.
I don't know if I think I have a point to make any more
They are a well oiled (heh) machine.
Not just the team but everything above them the fact they lose gundogan (was it free) and could end up getting rice for 90m.
Could lose b.Silva and won't even miss him.
Sounds ridiculous.
But with the 115 charges hanging over their head everything would and should be questioned.
Not just the team but everything above them the fact they lose gundogan (was it free) and could end up getting rice for 90m.
Could lose b.Silva and won't even miss him.
Sounds ridiculous.
But with the 115 charges hanging over their head everything would and should be questioned.
They are at the far end of the scale of clubs without any feeling or soul to them. I sometimes, just sometimes, feel for people who were real City supporters for ages, way before the takeover...
but there's also a general point to be had-
which is, in my opinion, that it must be harder for new fans of the game to so obsessively fall in love with team X as children / teenagers and become lifelong supporters to the same depths that 'we did'.
I might be talking out of my ass as I've no way to know how it feels, to be hooked into football for the first time in the 2020s.
But the game- at least the highest levels which are the relevant ones for anyone who supports one of the established CL teams as a broad point ot reference- has changed to such depths...
not only the shady owners, the state-backed teams, and the insane amounts of money involved... but also the football that's been dominant- this precise, systemized, brilliantly effective Pep-led football we see...
How the hell can you watch that brand of football and be amazed by the game to the same effect you did with Fergie's United, Wenger's Arsenal, Liverpool with the many moments Stevie Me gave their fans, Chelsea with that team led by Zola and also the iteration of the Mourinho guys and their annoying/inspiring character... and that's just the PL...
_________________________________
But, well...
it's only been a couple of years since the great Real and Barca teams of Messi and Ronaldo were in full swing,
there's no problem to fall in love with either of them in a heartbeat.
or Klopp's Liverpool at their pomp, sad as it is...
All this rant, and then to immediately start thinking to myself,
that it all has to do with how depressing it's been to be a United supporter for the past 10 years... Urgh.
I don't know if I think I have a point to make any more
Admirable thoughts, but realistically, just sentimental drivel and contradicted by your last sentence.
City are now enjoying the generational swing in young support, as anybody under the age of 20 has only known them as being a top team
Presumably I'm far older than you, because I'm one of those supporters who claim to feel sorry for
Really?
My first real memory is the 69-70 season when I hated Leeds with a passion and feared Arsenal, Derby and Liverpool.
United were just the violent bullies, smashing up towns all over the country, and it continued for 5-6 years.
You do realise that City's 2nd top scorer in the PL this season was an Academy Player?
Pumping out the talent from your academy. Their was Shaun Wright-Phillips, Micah Richards, Joey Barton, Daniel Sturridge, Phil Foden and .....I'm sure I'm missing someone.
Quite a impressive list.
Yes, you must be far older than me. respect for the way you've supported your club, without sarcasm.
No need for your rudeness, mind.
I'm still sorry for those of your fanbase who feel distanced from the club,
just as I feel sad for United supporters who're gonna experience that, should the Qatari ownership go through.