Diamond formation - why haven't we tested it yet?

Igor Drefljak said:
If.....IF, we signed Toby, Sandro, Sidibie and Fred, does the Diamond become a realistic formation?
De Gea
Sidibie - Toby - Bailly - Sandro
Matic
Fred - Pogba
Sanchez
Martial - Lukaku
​
It gets rid of needing that RW we've needed for the last 5 or so years. If Martial does go, adding a Fekir type playing and pushign Sanchez alongside Lukaku does seem a very good options.
Would need Fred and Pogba to put in shifts helping out the fullbacks at times though
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Sanchez would be better up front with Lukaku. I would sign a top No.10, someone like Eriksen, Dybala, Draxler, James, Fekir.
That formation with proper fullbacks could work really well.

Martial and Rashord to rotate with Sanchez-Lukaku... Also Lingard/Mata to cover the No.10 position.
 
SS said:
Sanchez isn't really a number 10 in that formation. He's just a floating forward. Basically what he does anyway when he drifts centrally. It's still a midfield three, so Pogba's the one who would have the #8/#10 responsibilities.
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I don't think this will get the best out of Sanchez. I don't like him dropping deep and away from the box like what he was doing anyway. He's not that fast and loses the ball non stop. He's better to be near to the box and always in dangerous positions like what he was doing for Arsenal so that he gets more chances of scoring rather than being supposed to create from deep areas to his teammates.
 
God no.

I prefer to play with wingers/wide forwards in a 433....with the right players it’s the best tactic.
 
SS said:
@Trophy Room Sandro's probably the closest to that available.


Sanchez isn't really a number 10 in that formation. He's just a floating forward. Basically what he does anyway when he drifts centrally. It's still a midfield three, so Pogba's the one who would have the #8/#10 responsibilities.
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SS I can see where you are coming from but what you'll find is that Sanchez will drift to where there is space and that'll be the left. I don't like him there. I think he'll be most effective in and around the box facing goal. This is where he'll be at his most productive. I'd rather see him finish than create. In my opinion the best use of that trio is Sanchez as a false 9 with Lukaku and Martial drifting in from the right and left respectively.
 
The diamond formation is a myth though really isn't it? Sure, it always seems a great idea in theory but the Juve 2015 team with Marchisio, Vidal, Pirlo, Pogba are the only modern team I can really think of that have employed it.
 
Robaldo said:
The diamond formation is a myth though really isn't it? Sure, it always seems a great idea in theory but the Juve 2015 team with Marchisio, Vidal, Pirlo, Pogba are the only modern team I can really think of that have employed it.
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Madrid play a diamond too in theory. It's a very fluid formation though
 
Have y’all seen who our manager is? We ain’t playing no god damn diamond.
 
I find the diamond too static and lacking in width for Jose who likes the team to play like a recoil on a spring.

However a 352 with a false 9 and a False CB/Libero is the same thing as a diamond- & its the manoeuvring; allowing us to go from 5 at the back including wing backs or to a 3 without or even a 2 CB's whilst our 'false CB' pushes in to midfield. Likewise a false 9 allows us to go from a front 2 to a front 3 up to a front 5 including fully driven full backs.

We need that fluidity & flexibility to play 352; whilst the players we use are very static or are played in the wrong position.

Going from a back 5 to a front 5 on the counter is just gorgeous. It's one of the reasons I can see talisca being a big game player for us; because he can play that false 9 role for us.
 
I seem to remember we tried it possibly under Fergie against Newcastle one year and I believe it worked alright and we won the game. Think that was when they had Cabaye and Tiote and we wanted more control in the middle of the park.

But that's only one example and doesn't really mean bugger all, just stating that I remember one time we did use it.
 
Diamond formations provide a more consistent midfield but usually lacks cutting edge against defensive teams.

Mourinho used it often in Porto but only in big games where midfield control was essential.
 
Peyroteo said:
Madrid play a diamond too in theory. It's a very fluid formation though
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Red Indian Chief Torn Rubber said:
Real are on the brink of 3 UCL's in a row employing it most of the time.
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Fair point chaps. Still not sure I'd fancy us using it regularly in the league. I also feel like we'd clog up the middle of the field like we did last Saturday with Sanchez and Pogba in it.
 
Robaldo said:
Fair point chaps. Still not sure I'd fancy us using it regularly in the league. I also feel like we'd clog up the middle of the field like we did last Saturday with Sanchez and Pogba in it.
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If we had fullbacks who can provide width like Real's do. It would never matter. Especially if your front two are comfortable drifting wide
 
Robaldo said:
The diamond formation is a myth though really isn't it? Sure, it always seems a great idea in theory but the Juve 2015 team with Marchisio, Vidal, Pirlo, Pogba are the only modern team I can really think of that have employed it.
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Additionally Toronto FC have just won a treble and made the Concacaf Champions League finals by playing the diamond and 3-5-2. An attacking fullback like TFC have in Morrow is absolutely vital to either system though so we need to make the right signings if we want to do it.
 
el3mel said:
I don't think this will get the best out of Sanchez. I don't like him dropping deep and away from the box like what he was doing anyway. He's not that fast and loses the ball non stop. He's better to be near to the box and always in dangerous positions like what he was doing for Arsenal so that he gets more chances of scoring rather than being supposed to create from deep areas to his teammates.
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True, ball retention isn't his strongest asset. He wouldn't necessarily have to be a link man though. I'd like to think it would be a fluid front three with all three capable of taking up each other's positions or drifting wider.

Trophy Room said:
SS I can see where you are coming from but what you'll find is that Sanchez will drift to where there is space and that'll be the left. I don't like him there. I think he'll be most effective in and around the box facing goal. This is where he'll be at his most productive. I'd rather see him finish than create. In my opinion the best use of that trio is Sanchez as a false 9 with Lukaku and Martial drifting in from the right and left respectively.
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Fair enough, it would be a pretty similar formation anyways, with Lukaku and Martial being wider and Sanchez slightly further forward.
 
Robaldo said:
The diamond formation is a myth though really isn't it? Sure, it always seems a great idea in theory but the Juve 2015 team with Marchisio, Vidal, Pirlo, Pogba are the only modern team I can really think of that have employed it.
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Real Madrid have been playing the diamond for 2-3 years now.
 
SS said:
True, ball retention isn't his strongest asset. He wouldn't necessarily have to be a link man though. I'd like to think it would be a fluid front three with all three capable of taking up each other's positions or drifting wider.
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Fair point here. In that case it may work.
 
Watching the FA cup final, I thought it was a diamond (or 4321 christmas tree). The back four and midfield 3 are obvious (though sometimes Herrera was deep enough to make it a back 5). Then you had Lingard, Sanchez, and Rashford.
I thought it was mostly Lingard as the 10 linking midfield to attack, Sanchez as a striker with license to roam, and Rashford as the proper centre forward. Maybe it could be seen as Lingard and Sanchez behind Rashford. Either way, there was no way that either Lingard or Sanchez played as wingers - we had zero width throughout the match till Martial came on.

Whether it was a diamond or 4321, it didn't work at all. There was no target for Pogba to pass to. Chelsea's narrow 3-man defence was no stretched by any width whatsoever. Lingard's touch and ability was exposed in an extremely congested central area, as was Sanchez's lack of mobility.
 
If we start playing 4312... Who would you sign in the No.10 position?

Sanchez - Lukaku
New No.10
Pogba - Matic - Fred?​
 
berbatrick said:
Watching the FA cup final, I thought it was a diamond (or 4321 christmas tree). The back four and midfield 3 are obvious (though sometimes Herrera was deep enough to make it a back 5). Then you had Lingard, Sanchez, and Rashford.
I thought it was mostly Lingard as the 10 linking midfield to attack, Sanchez as a striker with license to roam, and Rashford as the proper centre forward. Maybe it could be seen as Lingard and Sanchez behind Rashford. Either way, there was no way that either Lingard or Sanchez played as wingers - we had zero width throughout the match till Martial came on.

Whether it was a diamond or 4321, it didn't work at all. There was no target for Pogba to pass to. Chelsea's narrow 3-man defence was no stretched by any width whatsoever. Lingard's touch and ability was exposed in an extremely congested central area, as was Sanchez's lack of mobility.
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Yep. The FA Cup final line-up was definitely a narrow front three.
 
3-5-2 seems far more likely.
 
Robaldo said:
The diamond formation is a myth though really isn't it? Sure, it always seems a great idea in theory but the Juve 2015 team with Marchisio, Vidal, Pirlo, Pogba are the only modern team I can really think of that have employed it.
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Nice, Monaco, Real Madrid, Juventus and Benfica(with Jorge Jesus) have used it in recent years.

Edit: And Mourinho with Inter.
 
Mourinho tried it against Chelsea in the final, and to be fair we weren't too bad. We've definitely had worse performances anyway. We just lacked imagination in the final third and to be fair to Chelsea, they defended pretty well.

If Mourinho is to go into next season with a diamond (I do think he'll try it in pre-season) then we'd obviously need a few additions in some areas.

Full backs

We'd need a left and right back. Valencia and Young get forward well enough. Actually, that is not an issue. The issue is the lack of quality when they get into the final third - Valencia more so than Young.

Sandro, Sidibe, Tierney, Cedric, Cancelo

Playmaker

Someone in midfield who can control a game and move the ball into the front three quickly. Someone who can switch play effectively. This is a big problem for us at the moment. Apart from Pogba, and occasionally Matic, we never seem to switch the ball when needed.

I watch Madrid for example, and Kroos, Isco and Modric all know when to switch play and get the full backs into good positions. We seem to take too long. By that team, the defensive unit has moved across with the ball.

Verratti, Fred, Seri.


Number 10

This would have to be a top class playmaker. In Sanchez and Lukaku, although top players, they are very erratic in possession and often lose the ball. Behind them would need to be someone who can is very good in possession and some who can unlock teams. Someone who is also given to roam.

Fekir, Lemar, Draxler, Eriksen, Luis Alberto


De Gea
Sidibe Bailly Umiti Sandro
Fred Matic Pogba
Alberto
Lukaku Sanchez​
 
LeftyBlaster said:
We can chop and change formations all we like, but if we don’t start working on the basics of movement off the ball, nothing will help. It’s our fundamentals that need addressing.
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Yeah, this is all a bit FIFA for me. None of it matters unless the right training/coaching is implemented behind it.
 
Except for when Pogba is playing well enough to do it all himself we are generally terrible at building through the middle. Our attack often amounts to hitting a pass out wide and hoping. A diamond would make that less of a possibility, whether it would improve our play through the middle or not is a guess.
 
I dont think i've ever seen a team use a diamond midfield and it look good.
We dont have the players for it and i dont think any team does that wouldn't be better served with a different formation.
 
caid said:
I dont think i've ever seen a team use a diamond midfield and it look good.
We dont have the players for it and i dont think any team does that wouldn't be better served with a different formation.
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IMO we did have the team to play 4312:

Sanchez/Martial - Lukaku/Rashford
Lingard/Mata
Pogba/Fellaini - Matic/Carrick - Herrera/McTominay
Young/Shaw - Bailly/Smalling/Rojo/Jones/Lindelof/Blind - Valencia/Darmian
De Gea/Romero
​
If we sell the deadwood, and sign 5 players, we could play something like this:

For example:
Sanchez - Lukaku
Bale
Pogba - Matic - Fred
Sandro - Alderweireld - Bailly - NewRB
De Gea​
 
caid said:
I dont think i've ever seen a team use a diamond midfield and it look good.
We dont have the players for it and i dont think any team does that wouldn't be better served with a different formation.
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Real?
 
Fer said:
IMO we did have the team to play 4312:

Sanchez/Martial - Lukaku/Rashford
Lingard/Mata
Pogba/Fellaini - Matic/Carrick - Herrera/McTominay
Young/Shaw - Bailly/Smalling/Rojo/Jones/Lindelof/Blind - Valencia/Darmian
De Gea/Romero
​
If we sell the deadwood, and sign 5 players, we could play something like this:

For example:
Sanchez - Lukaku
Bale
Pogba - Matic - Fred
Sandro - Alderweireld - Bailly - NewRB
De Gea​
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That front three would be so frustrating. As you have mentioned before, we'd need a playmaker as a 10, rather than a goalscorer.
 
Formations matter less and less in the modern game, it's a lot more fluid in general, especially in the wider areas.
 
Rajma said:
Looking how inept we're away from home against better teams - why don't we just shore up the midfield and make it a real exercise for opposition to get past us? Could it work?


---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw-
------Herrera-------Fellaini----
--------------Pogba--------------
-----Lukaku/Martial---Sanchez---
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Shaw is all over the place, Jones commit a mistake every 10min, which mean Matic will be babysitting the LHS full time. On top of that you have Fellaini and Herrera, the most static players. Your only width is Valencia who is at the wrong age group. In short, shaky defence, no width, no pace. Only attack option is to long ball to Lukaku/Fellaini, Moyes' favourite tactics.
 
Now that we have signed Fred and the rumors of Savic, it could be an option. However, I would prefer someone like Fekir behind Alexis and Lukaku. The only problem with that formation is that we need top fullbacks to make it work.
 
I can appoint several reasons. The narrow diamond formation is one of the most difficult formations to implement because it requires several ingredients to succeed.

1 - The techincal staff and manager need to be very clear on player instructions, since it's not easy to organize a team with several center midfielders.
2 - You need a very complete defensive midfielder. This player is a key player in this system. He needs to be solid and disciplined, and will be the first playmaker of the team.
3 - You need a versatile attacking midfielder. This player must do much more than organize: he needs to be a goal threat and help on defensive duties too.
4 - At least one of the forwards must be a working horse, since he will be necessary in defensive duties against teams who will try to overload through the wings.
5 - The fullbacks need to be very solid when attacking, since they will give width when attacking.
 
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