Diamond formation - why haven't we tested it yet?

Rajma

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Looking how inept we're away from home against better teams - why don't we just shore up the midfield and make it a real exercise for opposition to get past us? Could it work?


---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw-
------Herrera-------Fellaini----
--------------Pogba--------------
-----Lukaku/Martial---Sanchez---
 
Rajma said:
Looking how inept we're away from home against better teams - why don't we just shore up the midfield and make it a real exercise for opposition to get past us? Could it work?


---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw-
------Herrera-------Fellaini----
--------------Pogba--------------
-----Lukaku/Martial---Sanchez---
Click to expand...

That's just too one dimensional. This is better:

Matic
Herrera - Pogba
Lingard
Lukaku/Martial - Alexis​
 
Due to lack of midfielders. Fellini has been injured for most of the games
 
Because our strength is in our forwards: Lukaku, Sanchez, Rashford, Mata and Lingard and that formation only uses two of them.

It also uses Herrera who I have no idea what he would bring to the table in a midfield with two other players that do his role and Fellaini who has been out for most of the season.


So in short, we have 5 strong attackers and you suggest we use 2 of them and we have 2 strong midfielders and two midfielders either injured or off form and you suggest we use all four of them.
 
Pexbo said:
Because our strength is in our forwards: Lukaku, Sanchez, Rashford, Mata and Lingard and that formation only uses two of them.

It also uses Herrera who I have no idea what he would bring to the table in a midfield with two other players that do his role and Fellaini who has been out for most of the season.


So in short, we have 5 strong attackers and you suggest we use 2 of them and we have 2 strong midfielders and two midfielders either injured or off form and you suggest we use all four of them.
Click to expand...
It’s not like those attackers continuously have let us down in big games, oh wait...
 
I've been calling for a 4-4-2 for ages. Barca is tearing up La Liga with a 4-4-2 right now and Real Madrid won La Liga and Champions League with it last year. Not to mention Leicester who won the EPL not too long ago with this formation. If it were up to me I would play it like this:

-----------------------------De Gea--------------------------------
Valencia-------------Jones-------------Bailley----------Shaw/Young
------------------------------Matic---------------------------------
-----------Fellaini------------------------Pogba--------------------
-----------------------------Sanchez--------------------------------
-----------------Lukaku----------------Martial----------------------
 
It is always difficult going away from home against another top 6 side. I dont think formation will drastically change our fortunes.
 
Rajma said:
Looking how inept we're away from home against better teams - why don't we just shore up the midfield and make it a real exercise for opposition to get past us? Could it work?


---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw-
------Herrera-------Fellaini----
--------------Pogba--------------
-----Lukaku/Martial---Sanchez---
Click to expand...

Probably because it's the worst diamond I've ever seen.

Funny how whichever formation anyone suggests we still lack that additional midfielder :lol:

---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw-
------NEW GUY-----Pogba----
--------------Sánchez--------------
-----Lukaku-----------Martial---

That could work.
 
Samid said:
That's just too one dimensional. This is better:

Matic
Herrera - Pogba
Lingard
Lukaku/Martial - Alexis​
Click to expand...

This is effectively the 4-3-3 a lot of people are championing and the right formation for us. Be interesting to see how Martial and Alexis link up as a front two.
 
Jesus, not that again. I remember these pointless diamond debates when he had Di Maria.
 
We don't have the full backs good enough to do it. Valencia maybe but whoever plays on the left all get exposed.
 
The simple answer is managers have systems they prefer playing, Mourinho has generally used 4231 since he left Chelsea the first time and before that 433.

He has never really strayed away from those formations for a significant number of games with any club he has managed no matter what the players he has at his disposal are suited to.

The isn't a criticism of him at all, most managers are the same and have a preferred formation, for obvious reasons because that's the one they best know how to coach and train.
 
It's just a matter of using Pogba as part of the midfield 3. In front of them, the front 3 can have roaming roles, and can pick from any of Martial, Sanchez, Lingard, Lukaku. Rashford too, but he's lower down the pecking order. So it's just a matter of how we want to organize our front 3. Whether it's 2 wingers staying wide like Pep likes and a striker through the middle, or 2 inside forwards drifting in to the middle like Mourinho likes, or in a diamond where we have 2 strikers and a floater. Whatever we do, they'll change throughout the game and Sanchez will sometimes drop deep, Martial push up like a 2nd striker alongside Lukaku, or whatever else. The most important is playing with a 3rd midfielder as we'll continue to be shite and unbalanced until that. Doesn't matter what we do with anything else. Til we sort out the midfield situation, we aren't getting anywhere.
 
Nytram Shakes said:
The simple answer is managers have systems they prefer playing, Mourinho has generally used 4231 since he left Chelsea the first time and before that 433.

He has never really strayed away from those formations for a significant number of games with any club he has managed no matter what the players he has at his disposal are suited to.

The isn't a criticism of him at all, most managers are the same and have a preferred formation, for obvious reasons because that's the one they best know how to coach and train.
Click to expand...

He actually used a diamond very frequently in his time at Inter, but limited it to domestic use only, where the pace is generally gentler relative to the other big leagues. He avoided it entirely for Inter's victorious CL campaign because he knew it would be exposed vs non-Italian sides.
 
Rajma said:
Looking how inept we're away from home against better teams - why don't we just shore up the midfield and make it a real exercise for opposition to get past us? Could it work?


---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw-
------Herrera-------Fellaini----
--------------Pogba--------------
-----Lukaku/Martial---Sanchez---
Click to expand...

Fellaini in. Martial out? Madness
 
Theon said:
Converted wingers aren’t a poor option for that formation.
Click to expand...
Valencia is quite poor when it comes to actually putting good crosses in. Young is much better but for a diamond, you'd prefer a left footer who'd go on the outside and put quality balls in.
 
Infra-red said:
He actually used a diamond very frequently in his time at Inter, but limited it to domestic use only, where the pace is generally gentler relative to the other big leagues. He avoided it entirely for Inter's victorious CL campaign because he knew it would be exposed vs non-Italian sides.
Click to expand...
i did not know this, thanks for sharing, i only really watched Mourinho's inter play in the champions League.
 
Infra-red said:
He actually used a diamond very frequently in his time at Inter, but limited it to domestic use only, where the pace is generally gentler relative to the other big leagues. He avoided it entirely for Inter's victorious CL campaign because he knew it would be exposed vs non-Italian sides.
Click to expand...

It wasn't really a diamond, the three midfielders were pretty flat.
 
JPRouve said:
It wasn't really a diamond, the three midfielders were pretty flat.
Click to expand...

Well 4-3-1-2/4-4-2 diamond - it's largely a matter of interpretation. The 'shuttlers' on the sides of the three are always going to get forward more than the #6, even in a conservative Mourinho midfield.
 
Infra-red said:
He actually used a diamond very frequently in his time at Inter, but limited it to domestic use only, where the pace is generally gentler relative to the other big leagues. He avoided it entirely for Inter's victorious CL campaign because he knew it would be exposed vs non-Italian sides.
Click to expand...
he used the diamond whole first half of the season, then they got him pandev and he shifted to what was essentially a 4-4-1-1, or 4-2-1-3 depending if they were chasing a game. With the caveat that Maicon was a monster and played both fullback and winger at the same time...
 
It's not that different to a 433. Give our forwards freedom to roam in a 433 and it'll look similar to that a lot of the time.
 
---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly-----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw
------Herrera-------Pogba
------------Sanchez--------------
-----Lukaku---------Martial

With the players we currently have at the club, I can see that working best if we did go with this formation. Lukaku has done pretty well when having to go out wide right, delivering decent crosses into the box and using his pace. Martial works best out on the left when able to cut in. Sanchez is better when he can roam and bring the ball forward for the team with his driving runs. Pogba works very well as the left side of a three, Herrera works better on the right side. The rest speaks for itself.
 
Rajma said:
Looking how inept we're away from home against better teams - why don't we just shore up the midfield and make it a real exercise for opposition to get past us? Could it work?


---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw-
------Herrera-------Fellaini----
--------------Pogba--------------
-----Lukaku/Martial---Sanchez---
Click to expand...

Samid said:
That's just too one dimensional. This is better:

Matic
Herrera - Pogba
Lingard
Lukaku/Martial - Alexis​
Click to expand...

antohan said:
Probably because it's the worst diamond I've ever seen.

Funny how whichever formation anyone suggests we still lack that additional midfielder :lol:

---------------DDG----------------
---------Bailly----Jones----------
Valencia------Matic------Shaw-
------NEW GUY-----Pogba----
--------------Sánchez--------------
-----Lukaku-----------Martial---

That could work.
Click to expand...
guys, guys, guys
How many times do we have to try the same shit formation before you realise its one glaring weakness which you never change? We are still playing with one in midfield you dress it up and down with this one or that one in front of Matic but he is our sole midfielder! And game after game its been proved not to work and here we are again rolling out the same nonsense.

The only way I see it working is with Lukaku on the right of the front 3, he drifts there anyhow Sanchez in the middle and Martial on the left, Lingard, unfortunately, drops out and Herrera comes in to sit with Matic and Pogba at the base of the diamond. We are not solid enough to play anything else I fear.

DDG​
___Valencia Jones Rojo Shaw
Herrera Matic
Pogba​
Lukaku Martial
Sanchez​

Some will wonder about Lukaku but he likes to push on and Sanchez likes to drop off so in reality it would play like this...
Sanchez Martial​
Lukaku​
Not exactly a diamond i know but pushing on Lukaku into the inside right role. Creates a huge hole shaped problem in their defence dragging a centre half ontop of a fullback. Some days we'll face a back 3 and that day we need speed to turn them into a back 5. With Lingard Martial Rashford,

I know nobody will agree but have we not tried Matic alone enough to know that it doesn't work and while Pogba may be selected beside him. He doesn't play there!
 
These all have Pogba out of his best position and leave Herrera with more to do than he's shown this year. They take away width at the top of the pitch that isn't going to come from the fullbacks. Maybe they'd be useful in certain tactical match ups, but I don't see the best out of this squad coming from a 4-4-2 diamond. As much as I don't like three man backlines, I think what we've seen from Mourinho's experiments with it would bring out more for this squad than a 4-4-2 diamond.
 
Distracted Steward said:
These all have Pogba out of his best position and leave Herrera with more to do than he's shown this year. They take away width at the top of the pitch that isn't going to come from the fullbacks. Maybe they'd be useful in certain tactical match ups, but I don't see the best out of this squad coming from a 4-4-2 diamond. As much as I don't like three man backlines, I think what we've seen from Mourinho's experiments with it would bring out more for this squad than a 4-4-2 diamond.
Click to expand...

Most of them have got Pogba in his best position on the left in a midfield 3
 
As far as I see it, it's a straight forward choice of Lingard or Herrera! If we choose Lingard its a 4231, if we choose Herrera then it's 433. Playing Herrera gets Pogba, one of our best 1/2 players, in his best position and then allows our other 2 best players - Martial and Sanchez - to interchange across a forward 3.

Lingard has been playing great, however for the team to push on, he needs to be swapped out with Herrera.
 
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Mourinho is set in his ways, his preference is 4-2-3-1 which has become a bit outdated, when other teams load the midfield we get overrun. We get away with it against the lesser teams but get terribly exposed when playing the top 6. (which ends up in a complete meltdown on the forum after these games)
Unfortunately Mourinho is incredibly stubborn and won't change his ways, it would mean him having to admit his ways are outdated or wrong. A formation which suits our team and players is the 3-5-2, being able to defend as a 5-4-1, you would expect him to explore those formations more but he hasn't. One thing I would like to see from Mourinho is that he goes with the times, evolves with the game but I doubt it. That is why I do not expect Sanchez to have the same impact in the team the way he did at Arsenal, I really hope I am wrong but we are far to rigid and slow in our play and build up in games.
 
Need a new quality midfielder and a few proper backups, although Pereira/TFM might be able to take backup spots.
 
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