Defence, we need a new one and we all know it..!

manux399

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We talked throughout last season and the close season about the issue of our leaky defence, well we new it then and it's so bloody obvious now. Simply we need to re-build it.

It's easy to turn around a slag-off one bad match, but how many have we witnessed over the past season where the midfield and forwards have been let down by a defence that simply is woeful.

For United to finish 2nd/3rd in the league (presumably) and reach the semi's of the ECL is a great testament to the team, but what could we have done with at leats one world class defender..? We all appreciate what Blanc has done, but he's arrived here too late in his career. Injuries to Johnsen haven't helped, but I don't rate him as "World Class". Arsenal while being erratic have saved games with their defence this season, in their last eight games they've only conceeded three goals..! Hence the reason they'll be champions come the end of the season.

We new the problem was there last season so why, why, why has nothing been done..? Could the money spent on Veron have been better used, I certainly think so. It's a statement of how bad things were that the "Old Man" himself Denis was called upon to against Ipswich the other night and why, well he's still the best defender we've got even though he's lost a yard of pace.

The problem with defending is you need experience, hence the buy of Blanc. But I cringe every time the ball goes near Silvestre, am I the only one...??? To sort this shambles out is SAF's next task and I'm sure he dosen't need me to tell him, but god I hope he does and fast. I like the look of O'Shea but he needs someone who will boss the defence along side him, if it's Van Bommel or whoever lets just do it in time for next season cause we can't afford to have one of the best stike rates in Europe and one of the worst defences. We've lost too much already... :(
 
2 points...
Mickeys been one of our best defenders this year, showing lots of improvement (wonder if its down to Blanc?)
Van Bommel is a midfielder not a defender.
 
The defence had problems until december but since it has been quite good. Tonight we have done better than Liverpool (best defence in England) in Germany...Leverkusen hadn't many chances...
 
Originally posted by Elfie:
<strong>The defence had problems until december but since it has been quite good. Tonight we have done better than Liverpool (best defence in England) in Germany...Leverkusen hadn't many chances...</strong><hr></blockquote>

one slip cost us the match...


thats football.
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Silvestre may have improved, but he needed to..! He still drifts away into the centre and leaves huge gaps down the flank. I agree he's got pace and can get back, but I'd love to see how many goals have come from him being caught out of position. Look at Denis when he was at left back, tight as a "Ducks Arse" and we can count his mistakes over the last twelve years on one hand..!

I'm sure Blanc has a lot to do with Silvestre's improvement, but as I said he arrived too late in his career.

Ah well I'm pissed and have been going on about this subject for over a year, it's 2.00am so I'm off to bed, maybe Vna Bommel will be a defender when I wake up.. ;)
 
Why blame Mickey or Blanc? I'd like to see those 2 as the cornerstones of our defence for next seaosn.

I'm afraid it may be all over for Ronny. Class player he is, but we can't really build on him because he's always injured. If Blanc stays, I feel Fergie will sign a new centerhalf to go along with Laurent, Wes and O'Shea and release Jonsen.
 
Originally posted by giggzy:
<strong>one slip cost us the match...

thats football.</strong><hr></blockquote>

We got our goal from a slip too, literally.
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Originally posted by Elfie:
<strong>The defence had problems until december but since it has been quite good. Tonight we have done better than Liverpool (best defence in England) in Germany...Leverkusen hadn't many chances...</strong><hr></blockquote>


Agreed but look at our goals conceded this season.. :eek: And look at how many we've conceded since December and how many the Arse have..! That's the difference!
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Originally posted by Amir:
<strong>Why blame Mickey or Blanc? I'd like to see those 2 as the cornerstones of our defence for next seaosn.
</strong><hr></blockquote>

If Silvestre is a cornerstone, then God help us.
Ronny is/was class but you don't keep clean sheets in the treatment room (unless you're the cleaning lady)
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but i know what youre saying. This is what id like to see happening:

Barthez - out - 5 million
Leaked too many goals this season. playing well recently but dont make up for a poor season. Doesnt command his box enough and its become apparent this year that his height DOES contribute to some of the goals he conceeds.Especially apparent around direct freekicks or lobs like tonight when hes been off his line slightly. Dont think he inspires enough confidence into his defence. remember Pete, even with average defenders he could get them to keep clean sheets.

Veron - out - 25+ million
If we could get back what we paid for him id take it. Im not convinced like others that he will come good next year. How long do we give him? We cant keep changing our formation trying to find a niche for a player that may or may not fit into our style. The money would be better spent elsewhere. we could certainly pick up a younger playmaker type for cheaper.

Denis - out - free
has to happen sooner or later. Great servant, sad to see him go.

May - out - 500,000
Never gonna make the team again, unless its worthless cup.

Fortune - out - 1,500,000
If we can get this price for him (or more) take it. Did a useful job at times this season but cant be guaranteed a spot that he needs.

Selling those would give us roughly 32mill on top of whatever kitty Alex already has.

Johnsen - give him a 1 yr contract. Proved when he's played this year that hes still class. Almost scored twice tonight before he went off.
Blanc - another year please Larry, still world class.

In, id like to see obviously a central defender.Actually Lucio has impressed me, but theyd need to put the attacking reins on him a bit. A fullback who can cover or take over rightback would be nice, maybe Finnan as rumoured, but Emmerton would be great before the scousers get him! On top of that id like to see an out and out, blinding fast striker who can give us something different.
 
Originally posted by Giggsy-Becks:
<strong>


Ronny is/was class but you don't keep clean sheets in the treatment room (unless you're the cleaning lady)</strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />
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Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>but i know what youre saying. This is what id like to see happening:

Barthez - out - 5 million
Leaked too many goals this season. playing well recently but dont make up for a poor season. Doesnt command his box enough and its become apparent this year that his height DOES contribute to some of the goals he conceeds.Especially apparent around direct freekicks or lobs like tonight when hes been off his line slightly. Dont think he inspires enough confidence into his defence. remember Pete, even with average defenders he could get them to keep clean sheets.

Veron - out - 25+ million
If we could get back what we paid for him id take it. Im not convinced like others that he will come good next year. How long do we give him? We cant keep changing our formation trying to find a niche for a player that may or may not fit into our style. The money would be better spent elsewhere. we could certainly pick up a younger playmaker type for cheaper.

Denis - out - free
has to happen sooner or later. Great servant, sad to see him go.

May - out - 500,000
Never gonna make the team again, unless its worthless cup.

Fortune - out - 1,500,000
If we can get this price for him (or more) take it. Did a useful job at times this season but cant be guaranteed a spot that he needs.

Selling those would give us roughly 32mill on top of whatever kitty Alex already has.

Johnsen - give him a 1 yr contract. Proved when he's played this year that hes still class. Almost scored twice tonight before he went off.
Blanc - another year please Larry, still world class.

In, id like to see obviously a central defender.Actually Lucio has impressed me, but theyd need to put the attacking reins on him a bit. A fullback who can cover or take over rightback would be nice, maybe Finnan as rumoured, but Emmerton would be great before the scousers get him! On top of that id like to see an out and out, blinding fast striker who can give us something different.</strong><hr></blockquote>

Exactly.. ;)
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Originally posted by manux399:
<strong>
it's 2.00am so I'm off to bed, maybe Vna Bommel will be a defender when I wake up.. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> and would probably be better at it too
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I completely agree with manux.
For me Wes Brown can become a very good player.
Silvestre can be a good back-up.

In this semi,especially in the first leg, what has really disappointed me is that we haven't realized we CANNOT defend a one goal lead.
What is crazy is that, absurd it may seem, both times we have been up we have moved backward and we have been punished.
This team is weak in the defence, it's better to conced the fast-break that wait for a certain goal.

Anyway, we need to get a serious defender,someone fast,like Kuffour for example.
 
Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>

<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> and would probably be better at it too</strong><hr></blockquote>


Maybe Nesta could also be the Lightening fast striker too... <img src="graemlins/houllier.gif" border="0" alt="[Houllier]" />
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Good post Manux....the defence played well through the second half of the season, which is principally down to Blanc adjusting to the pace of the premiership, showing what a class player he is, and raising the others to his level. He performed well again tonight, and during all the recent euro matches. For obvious reasons he's not the long term answer, but I'd be delighted to see him sign for another season and focus on the european games.

Ronnie has been a world class player who is not the long term answer for the obvious reason that we can't expect to see more than 10 games a season out of him.

Gary Neville - great player. You only realise how good he is when he is not there. Helps Beckham to be effective on the right. Undervalued, and can play both CB and RB.

Wes Brown - briefly showed potential to be a great player. Can be again if he gets good coaching and a clear run from injuries.

John O'Shea - will be awesome. Have no doubts.

Mickey - has had his best season, and has been great going forward..BUT - i share your reservations. He has a weak right foot, and as a consequence a weak right side. Players who go outside seldom get past him because of his pace, but when they come inside he doesn't have the physical strength to keep them out of the penalty area. Drags the CB across to cover for this weakness. Watch the goals against.

Denis fails the age test, and Phil fails (I'm afraid) the quality test.

We need one new world class, experienced CB, and cover at LB next season.....and Larry to sign for another year.
 
Originally posted by ryangiggsisno1:
<strong>I completely agree with manux.
For me Wes Brown can become a very good player.
Silvestre can be a good back-up.

In this semi,especially in the first leg, what has really disappointed me is that we haven't realized we CANNOT defend a one goal lead.
What is crazy is that, absurd it may seem, both times we have been up we have moved backward and we have been punished.
This team is weak in the defence, it's better to conced the fast-break that wait for a certain goal.

Anyway, we need to get a serious defender,someone fast,like Kuffour for example.</strong><hr></blockquote>

You been on The Marmite RG#1 ? Can't remember when we last agreed with each other... ;)

It's not been a good season for you mate, you have all my condolences.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> Oh saw a great programme about Rome tonight and Liam is looking forward to seeing you in August.. ;)
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Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>but i know what youre saying. This is what id like to see happening:

Barthez - out - 5 million
</strong><hr></blockquote>

Question is: Who to replace him with?
Forget about the italians, Buffon won't leave Juve and Toldo will hardly leave Inter after winning the league (probably). Oliver Khan has horrible hair ( ;) ). Shay Given? (he's looked pretty good behind a pretty bad defense, just what we need!)

We should steal whoever does the defensive scouting for the scousers I'm sad to say because with Dudek + Hyypia things would look a whole lot better.
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Originally posted by Giggsy-Becks:
<strong>

Question is: Who to replace him with?
Forget about the italians, Buffon won't leave Juve and Toldo will hardly leave Inter after winning the league (probably). Oliver Khan has horrible hair ( ;) ). Shay Given? (he's looked pretty good behind a pretty bad defense, just what we need!)

We should steal whoever does the defensive scouting for the scousers I'm sad to say because with Dudek + Hyypia things would look a whole lot better.</strong><hr></blockquote>

thats a harder question, but it needs to be a big fecker. Im not convinced that Given is any better than Roy Carroll. Just Carroll hasnt got the experience or the run at first team footie that Shay has.
Oliver Khan has stupid hair but he's a quality keeper. Ive also always been impressed by Magnus Hedman even behind a crappy Coventry defence. I think he could do a good job and we'd get him cheap. Niemi (spelling ?) that plays for Hearts i think is the best keeper north of the border.
The scousers have the best keeper in the league right now and that saddens me!
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Originally posted by manux399:
<strong>

You been on The Marmite RG#1 ? Can't remember when we last agreed with each other... ;)

It's not been a good season for you mate, you have all my condolences.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" /> Oh saw a great programme about Rome tonight and Liam is looking forward to seeing you in August.. ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>


what ?
we agree most of the times, instead.
Why not a good season for me ?
A decent season, I would say; the major disappointment has been Roma playing shit in CL.
I don't care so much about the domestic League, which we have anyway given away.
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I disagree with selling Barthez, any goalkeeper taht commands the France no.1 spot and has won the things he has can't be a bad player. He has looked suspect this season but was exceptional the one before. He has the ability, just needs the discipline.
We certainly need two quality central defenders. Blanc has improved a lot since the start, but he's hardly a long term option. I'm not convinced with Wes Brown yet. He's promising, as is o'shea, but we need to sign world class defenders if we want to win the laeagu and CL next season. Silvestre can become a top class full back, and I fully expect him to succeed Lizarazu in the France national team in a few years.
As for Ronny, he was great a few years ago, but he spends far too much time injured, and we shouldn't hold of a bid for a top class defender just to wait for Ronny to regain his form and fitness.

We should break the bank and sign Nesta (who should be a lot chepear now that Lazio are in financial trouble), and another quality defender, perhaps Ayala. Defence is a priority next season, and I'll be very surprised and dispaointed if SAF didn't buy at least one good centre half.
 
Originally posted by ryangiggsisno1:
<strong>


what ?
we agree most of the times, instead.
Why not a good season for me ?
A decent season, I would say; the major disappointment has been Roma playing shit in CL.
I don't care so much about the domestic League, which we have anyway given away.</strong><hr></blockquote>

It was Roma I was referring to..! I know we agree all the time, except on the obvious taste in cuisine.. ;)
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Originally posted by One_hit_wonder:
<strong>
We should break the bank and sign Nesta (who should be a lot chepear now that Lazio are in financial trouble), and another quality defender, perhaps Ayala. Defence is a priority next season, and I'll be very surprised and dispaointed if SAF didn't buy at least one good centre half.</strong><hr></blockquote>

If Blanc stays, we should sign ONE centerhalf, not two. No point in blocking Brown and O'Shea completely. There's no realistic chance of bringing Nesta. He'd cost a bundle (no matter what Lazio's situation is) and his president already said he intends to keep him anyway.
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Well, a liverpool fans take on your defense is :

John O' Shea looks like a class act to me! He seems to be more assured of his defending than brown, and maybe your best bet, probably with Blanc!

The only problem that I see is that neither Blanc or Barthes shows the inclination o boss the midfield like SAmi does for us and Adams/Seamen does for Arsenal!

As for a replacement keeper, Cudicini and Given have impressed, Hedman looks good! Don't know though! Maybe a good keeper will show himself at the WC!

Anyways, well tried for what it's worth!
 
Our defence certainly didn't play very badly today, especially Brown, Blanc and Silverstre were excellent. I hope in the summer we got one new CB (replace Blanc or backup him), and another new RB who can give pressure on Neville.

I heard some people said we need another backup for LB, how about getting back Higginbotham? ;)
 
Originally posted by uranushk1:
<strong>Our defence certainly didn't play very badly today, especially Brown, Blanc and Silverstre were excellent. I hope in the summer we got one new CB (replace Blanc or backup him), and another new RB who can give pressure on Neville.

I heard some people said we need another backup for LB, how about getting back Higginbotham? ;) </strong><hr></blockquote>

How about Placente? The longer we leave it the higher his value is going to go...
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I don't think we need a new defence as such, just a replacement for Blanc who will keep the others on their toes, plus maybe a younger defender like Mexes to partner Brown / O'Shea later on.
 
Originally posted by golden_blunder:
<strong>but i know what youre saying. This is what id like to see happening:

Barthez - out - 5 million
Leaked too many goals this season. playing well recently but dont make up for a poor season. Doesnt command his box enough and its become apparent this year that his height DOES contribute to some of the goals he conceeds.Especially apparent around direct freekicks or lobs like tonight when hes been off his line slightly. Dont think he inspires enough confidence into his defence. remember Pete, even with average defenders he could get them to keep clean sheets.

.</strong><hr></blockquote>

I guess crap GKs can win a WC and Euro Championship. This is nonsense. To sell Bartez for 5 million is one of the stupidest things I've ever heard. Fabien, you have my full backing. If he his let go, I'll be very disappointed with SAF.

As for Silvestre being only good enough as a back up, I guess being in the French national team is just a fluke.

What we need for next season is this lineup: Kahn, Thuram , Nesta, Hyypia, R. Carlos, Figo, Beckham, Zidane, Keane, Crespo, RVN. That way we'll satisfy all of the supporters.
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New defence? With our talent there is no need for a new defence. Look at all our talent - Wes, John, Gary, Phil, Mickey, Blanc if he stays, Fab and Ray. I haven`t mentioned Ronny as I am scared his injuries will finally see him on his way, David May as he too was cruelly hit by injury, and Denis Irwin who was fantastic in his heyday but now needs the pace that has gone to give it his very best for another season.

It is more a question of playing to their strengths and not being afraid to give youngsters such as John a chance. I do feel, however, that Sir Alex has to once more look at Red Devil youngsters. I am not a fan of buying from overseas or outside the club for new buys - start giving the kids their chance and you will produce another Beckham/Giggs/Neville/Butt generation.

We have triumphed with homegrown plahers and we can do it again. Give the youngsters their chance - please. Expensive imports don`t always live up to their potential as it is a matter of integrating their style with that of Manchester United`s - and it may not work.

Time to stop shifting sand and start building on the youngsters again. :p :p :p :p :p :p :p
 
Originally posted by One_hit_wonder:
<strong>I disagree with selling Barthez, any goalkeeper taht commands the France no.1 spot and has won the things he has can't be a bad player. He has looked suspect this season but was exceptional the one before. He has the ability, just needs the discipline.
We certainly need two quality central defenders. Blanc has improved a lot since the start, but he's hardly a long term option. I'm not convinced with Wes Brown yet. He's promising, as is o'shea, but we need to sign world class defenders if we want to win the laeagu and CL next season. Silvestre can become a top class full back, and I fully expect him to succeed Lizarazu in the France national team in a few years.
As for Ronny, he was great a few years ago, but he spends far too much time injured, and we shouldn't hold of a bid for a top class defender just to wait for Ronny to regain his form and fitness.

We should break the bank and sign Nesta (who should be a lot chepear now that Lazio are in financial trouble), and another quality defender, perhaps Ayala. Defence is a priority next season, and I'll be very surprised and dispaointed if SAF didn't buy at least one good centre half.</strong><hr></blockquote>


They owe us 11 million for Stam. I say give them Veron and they can keep the 11 million and we'll take Nesta provided he sign a long term deal ( 5 years). That way Lazio can have their superstar back and Stam to replace Nesta. and United have a long term solution to our CB problems.
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We need a new left back (Silvester as cover as he is never going to be good enough defensively) and at least one new CD of real class.

O'Shea may well develop into the player we suspect he is capable of being. Wes looks good but where to play him? My concern with him is that he is still only showing potential. Not attacking enough on the right and I think the jury is still out on him as a CB. A quality full season from him next year is needed. Blanc is class but ultimatly too slow and old. Ronnie is sadly too much of a sicknote. I like Phil but he did himself no favours with his (unusually) poor performance against Leverkusen at OT. Dennis is fantastic but age is catching up with him. Which leaves us with Gary.

On reflection I think Manux is wrong. All is perfect with our defense :rolleyes:
 
1. Blanc maybe slow but no one not even Owen has caught him for pace. Fact not fiction. If we added a Nesta/Ayala/Thuram to himour central defence will be invincible! :cool:
2. W need aowrth replacement for Iriwn, one who does not drift in to the center like silvestre but is good going forward. Then we will have adequate Silvestre backup.
3.Phil Neville for me needs to go since he is a form player. Give him a certain number of games then he shines. We need a backup to Gary who will fit in yto the postion and performto the highest level no matter how few times he is called upon!
4. 4-5-1 helped us in Europe. Next season when Forlan is fully settled he will take over the hole. Our greatest loss this season was not Stam but Blomqvist. Without a Giggs like player on the leftwing we always look ordinary!l It's high time Djordic got more games.
5. Veron will be better next season. Scholes for example has had a stinker of a season. He has been moved around in midfield before but has never flopped like this season. Is that a god enough reason to offload him to Juventus???? :mad: HELL NO!!! :mad: :mad:
Thank you! :cool:
 
Originally posted by Wibble:
<strong>

On reflection I think Manux is wrong. All is perfect with our defense :rolleyes: </strong><hr></blockquote>

And it's raining in Sharjah.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Wibbs you missed a bloody great weekends diving mate best yet at Khoforkhan. We're off again on the 5th / 6th of June you up for it..?
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If we buy Nesta I can see the topics here at start of next season. "What happened to Nesta, for that goal for West Ham? Kanoute went past him as if he was not there. I would much rather have Lucio and Ze roberto from Leverkusen. Then we would have a real good defence. I think Ze Roberto is already on his way to Bayern though, not sure, Maldini is down on his knees begging A.C.Milan to sign Lucio.
 
As for Veron, the guy is a class act in my opinion and some guys cannot see it ah well.
 
Originally posted by Im red:
<strong>As for Veron, the guy is a class act in my opinion and some guys cannot see it ah well.</strong><hr></blockquote>


Veron is here on reputation.

Some guys can't see it because it hasn't actually happened yet. Not here.

I'm not disputing that he is talented - but only because I'm taking the word of people who have seen him playing for Argentina and Lazio. I've seen just a few flashes of it here and there this season, and granted, some of what he did was out of this world. But few and far between.

I'll bet a lot of people on here have never seen him play for anyone other than United, and are saying he's a class act because he cost 28 million so must be.

So far, I haven't seen Veron consistently produce anything that warrants the adulation. If he stays and adjusts/settles next year, well that will be fine. I like Seba and I hope it does all work out the way we would like it to.

But if he was playing for Liverpool, we'd be tearing him to shreds.

Let's have a bit of honesty please.
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Originally posted by manux399:
<strong>

And it's raining in Sharjah.... <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laugh Out Loud]" />

Wibbs you missed a bloody great weekends diving mate best yet at Khoforkhan. We're off again on the 5th / 6th of June you up for it..?</strong><hr></blockquote>


Is that the long weekend?
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