English players tend to be overrated by English fans
Declan Rice
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English players tend to be overrated by English fans
You realise most on this forum love Ndidi?
The comment you responded to has nothing to do with nationality.
Ndidi is a high energy player that seems to focus on winning the ball back more which is helped by 3 CBs. Rice on the other hand seems very disciplined in his positioning and seems to occupy a specific area.
Inclined to agree. I think he’s another Maguire type player — he's obviously a good level player, but is he worth the fee and hassle getting him when there should be alternatives? Probably not.
And also the press, massively.
But the comment had nothing to do with rating one over the other. It was talking about their attributes and the type of player they were. So it has nothing to do with him being overrated either.
Thats how you see it
That’s crap to be fair. Suggests they know nothing about football and have a national bias which if you look at the Caf in general is as I’ve said ... crap
English talent is also hyped up by Germans like Michael Zorc and Joachim Lowe, who said that England, France and Belgium are producing the best players. So it's not just us the English who hype up our players.
Declan Rice would be a good signing but not for the price West Ham would want. So i'm hoping we look elsewhere without the added Premier League tax.
Declan Rice would be a good signing but not for the price West Ham would want. So i'm hoping we look elsewhere without the added Premier League tax.
I think he's a Nicky Butt level player and that's nothing to be ashamed of. Butt was good enough to be a Utd XI player but unfortunately for him, he played in the same team as Keane and Scholes, 2 of the best midfielders the PL has seen.
We could definitely use him. He has leadership qualities and a winners mentality. He will give 100% every single game.
If signing Rice will mean that a midfield 3 containing Van de Beek, Bruno and Rice will gel, then I'm all for it. McT and Fred can then come in and play tough away games to City etc where we need to be more defensive.
But West Ham will want silly money. But we've got the Lingard card up our sleeve, so you never know.
We could definitely use him. He has leadership qualities and a winners mentality. He will give 100% every single game.
If signing Rice will mean that a midfield 3 containing Van de Beek, Bruno and Rice will gel, then I'm all for it. McT and Fred can then come in and play tough away games to City etc where we need to be more defensive.
But West Ham will want silly money. But we've got the Lingard card up our sleeve, so you never know.
One is a run around player who tackles and the other is more intelligent with positioning, interceptions and passing. One is being described as better.
Has he ever been linked with United?
How about you actually quote what they say?
"this, I think, then depends what you want from that position. If you want someone who’s going to run around making tackles Ndidi might be better. Feel Rice is more of a disciplined holding midfielder ... a passing option for teammates, drops in between centre backs, intercepts more than tackles"
I.e. one is more aggressive and tries to win the ball back, moving across the pitch. The other is more positionally disciplined looking to break play up.
That is not being described as better.
That club could be us but with our issues in attack I doubt if we have the funds to pay what West Ham will demand and still go on to sign striker/RW.
Talking bollox
Nigerian players tend to be overrated by English fans
Brilliant player. Went toe to toe with Partey, and even made a lung busting run towards the end that could've won it for West Ham. Would say 60m is fair value for him, but seeing his age and nationality 70m shouldn't be out of the question. Can see Chelsea spend that much on him if they get rid of Jorginho. Or Utd if you move Pogba on.
Bit of an assumption about my opinion based on nothing.
intelligent? Who said that? seems you’ve added that in to support your incorrect claims.
Go back, read the comment and it’s literally a description of, in my opinion, how they perform the defensive midfielder role differently. Which one any prefers is personal to any fan or manager. Neither is called better.
Didn't quote your opinion, you asked what nationality had to do with it, and I gave you the obvious answer as to why the person raised nationality
yes, I asked what nationality has to do with my opinion. The person responded suggesting my opinion was related to the nationality of the two players. They therefore made an assumption based on nothing.
England has bypassed that Fellaini physical type of football now in this generation.
Even the Rooney's and Gerrard's or the Lampards have changed to the Mounts, Fodens, Rashfords, Greenwood's and Grealish.
I feel the people saying that English players are overrated haven't seen that.
England are an insanely technical team that is slowly being built up - and to balance that you have a player like Rice who can defensively hold the team in front of him. Even if he isnt the most technical, he will hold a very technical team due to the way he plays.
People may say that England have been overrated by the media and fans - yet I feel like England players get underrated purely due to their flag, the young technical side of England has been accepted by the English FA and you are seeing English players all across the world now more than ever.
Even the Rooney's and Gerrard's or the Lampards have changed to the Mounts, Fodens, Rashfords, Greenwood's and Grealish.
I feel the people saying that English players are overrated haven't seen that.
England are an insanely technical team that is slowly being built up - and to balance that you have a player like Rice who can defensively hold the team in front of him. Even if he isnt the most technical, he will hold a very technical team due to the way he plays.
People may say that England have been overrated by the media and fans - yet I feel like England players get underrated purely due to their flag, the young technical side of England has been accepted by the English FA and you are seeing English players all across the world now more than ever.
You were right, static wasnt the word and it is disciplined.
People compare him to Schneiderlin for example. Was Scheneiderlin lazy or able to hold his position? It became pretty obvious that Wanyama was adding alot of defensive ability next to Rice in Southampton and when we saw Schneiderlin here he looked lazy and lost, unable to make a tackle.
Carrick is interesting player to bring up because I actually think it's because Rice doesnt pass like him that people feel that they dont ever see anything about him. At the same time he isnt rushing around chasing the ball like Ndidi or Kante or Fred with 3 lungs inside his shirt for 90 mins either.
This is why I think he is disciplined. The same way that Allison can protect his box for Liverpool without making many saves is how I see Rice being able to be at the right central space at the right time and do nothing much more than make a tackle and a pass to someone else.
It's what interests me in him. I'd be happy if our manager thinks that Rice is our CDM from what they and we have seen of him over the last couple of seasons. He is able to do a 2 man job and guard a 2 man CB partnership. Likewise if our manager thinks Rice is not our CDM of the future - maybe he wants something more extra of an ability like alot of the fans have seen, and I'd be okay with that too.
I wouldn't rule him out and be bothered about the prices though because that never bothered me as it's not my money and being United adds a 25% increase in transfer fee that cant be controlled when buying class players.
Fair dues. I personally don't see why. It won't change a thing at center defence and our midfield is not weak in any shape or form to need beefing up.
Not to mention we would still be operating with two holders as a result.
Tuanzebe like Bailly can't stay fit. So he won't solve a thing.
The point is they shouldn't ever have to perform alongside each other. We should only require one of them vs any opponent. We can't because of our defence. Not their individual quality.
No DM in the game today would change that fact.
Good player but don't see him as much of an upgrade, if at all, on McTominay and the money involved would be insane given he is an England international. It would be Harry Maguire all over again.
We drop an attacker for Pogba because our center defence requires double protection. Anyone who believes Rice would miraculously change this fact is totally kidding themselves.
The lack of pressing from our attackers is a bigger problem. Liverpoo protect their defenders with three midfielders. But more importantly, all of their attackers press, and consequently they do it as a team.
We play them together because Ole likes them, not because our defenders needs extra help. They’re not even particularly effective at covering for our defence, I think the Leicester match was a prime example of that actually.
No, no and no. We do it often vs tough teams because we DON'T gave a choice. Lindeloff and Maguire are neither compatible enough not quick enough to operate infront of just one holder.
The notion that it's because our DMs are supposedly not good enough is laughable in the extreme. Heck our center defence is such an issue that even with the extra protection it's still porous.
This is the myth too many United fans want to convince themselves. Fred and mcTominay literally have the exact same defensive statistics as Declan Rice. The issue is he doesn't play infront of a porous center half partnership that can't deal with pace in behind.
As for the leicester match. It wasn't a prime example of anything. No outfield player played well.
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So, what you’re saying is that if we signed a really good centre back, we’d go into matches against say City for example with just Fred or McTominay holding? Maguire and Lindelof are both better players than Fred for me. They do their jobs and are better on the ball than he is, our midfield two are both very, very sloppy at their worst, and we’ve seen before what happens when you play Fred on his own in midfield, it doesn’t end well.
If you look at Ole's first season here -
He tried everything by rotating the midfield. We saw Pogba with Matic Pogba with Mctomminay. Pogba with Fred. Pogba with Fred and Mctomminay. We used Mctomminay and Fred. We even tried to use Andreas pereira in midfield.
What happened? Our best performances didnt come by Pogba with Matic, it came with Fred and Mctomminay.
So it became a staple of our squad.
Pogba and Matic wasnt as good as Fred and Mctomminay against alot of teams.
That's why people want a new CDM to replace Matic because we think the reason Pogba and Matic didnt work was because Matic's legs have gone.
Ole tried these things out.
I dont see why if we get someone like Rice we would stick them with Mctomminay or Fred.
The biggest problem is that we are heavily reliant of Pogba's career choice. He is our current deep lying playmaker type player - if he goes then we need that just as much as or more than a ball winning midfielder like Rice.
One thing I'd like to know from Rice fans, is how does he handle playing out from the back?
Because looking at stats, West Ham play the ball out long far more often than we do, and if Rice was to play for us as the deepest midfielder, he would be expected to regularly collect the ball from the defence/goalkeeper under pressure with his back to the opponents and work his way out to build an attack.
At the moment, he's used to cleaning up and his keeper bypassing him to get the ball back up the field. It would be a massive change in role for him.
Because looking at stats, West Ham play the ball out long far more often than we do, and if Rice was to play for us as the deepest midfielder, he would be expected to regularly collect the ball from the defence/goalkeeper under pressure with his back to the opponents and work his way out to build an attack.
At the moment, he's used to cleaning up and his keeper bypassing him to get the ball back up the field. It would be a massive change in role for him.
can you not see the difference Maguire has made. A massive upgrade in what we had. For the first time in a long time we have at least one stable CB, rather than the likes of Rojo, Jones, or Bailly. He’s a better player than smalling, but smalling shouldn’t be grouped with the three wasters named.
Rice would presumably replace Fred, which would be very welcome.
My point is we shouldn't have to spend insane money to marginally upgrade on Fred. Maguire has been okay for us, again going back to how much we spent, we bought a decent but not great centre half for a world record fee - that's absurd.
It's debatable if Leicester's defence is not actually better since he left. Man City seem to be able rebuild their squad time and again by paying less than us in wages and transfer fees.
We spent more on Maguire, who again is a solid but not great defender than Liverpool spent on Van Dijk. It's another example of how our transfer business is madness.
We spend more in wages than any other club in the league and regularly spend the most on transfers and have not challenged for the title in eight years.
As for Rice there is a huge difference in expectation playing for Man United and West Ham.
Someone mentioned previously he would be expected to be a fulcrum for us in terms of collecting the ball from the defenders and acting as a conduit for pushing the ball forward, can he do that?
Maybe but what I have seen of him so far suggests he isn't in the Michael Carrick mould but more crucially the fee West Ham would expect would probably be around 70-80m which is insanity given it would probably devour most of our budget on a player, who like Maguire, would only be a marginal upgrade on what we have - leaving us no closer to challenging for major honours.
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Man City spend £40m on a reserve centre back that doesn’t even play. Look at how much they’ve spend on defenders since Pep joined. It’s insane.
don’t hold up Man City as a shining light, they are able to ditch defenders that don’t work out, and go and guy more at £30,40,50m a pop without blinking.
Maguire is one of our better signings since Fergie left.
better than Bailly, Rojo, Lindelof. Looking at other areas of the pitch, we’ve masted how much?
Maguire is a nailed on starter, and likely to be a mainstay in the team for at least 5 years. That’s a good signing.
Rice would be far more than a marginal upgrade over Fred, and has the potential to get better. He’s the right profile of player to buy.
Why in the name of feck would that matter to us? Leicester are renowned for picking up and coming youngsters and cheap bargains (like Maguire) and improve them, use them in a good system. Maguire massively improved our backline even though he was enormously overpaid, because some idiot chose to buy Lindelof for 40m when he could have got Maguire directly for Hull for 16m pounds. Rice would also be a improvement but obviously not a 80m one. In reality who would be a 80m improvement, we thought Pogba is one, and he has been underwhelming for example. The same morons though Fred is worth 50m pounds so I have no faith in them unearthing a 15m bargain neither,
Very good post with valid points. Also if the choice is going and wasting another 50m on someone like Fred for example, I'd rather we just stamp the 80m and go and buy someone like Ndidi or Rice, who more or less is a sure proven CDM.
It's not just 'a good center back'. Give either Maguire or Lindeloff a fast, agressive compatible partner. I can guarantee united would NEVER need to employ more than one of Fred, McTominay or Matic vs ANY opponent. I don't care why they are.
That is of zero relevance to the fact as a pair not only are they not compatible, trying the extra protection. They can deal with pace in behind.
So the myth continues. The reason why we have been awful defensively at home is because when ever we reduce the protection we give Maguire and Lindeloff. By either reducing the defensive shield to one player or play on the front foot we become porous. Which has absolutely nothing to do with the midfield.
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