If it means we can just play him instead of both Fred and McTominay then the fee will be worth it
Declan Rice
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Agree.
I watched Koop for the first time (other than against us) in his most recent match and was quite disappointed. He's obviously a decent passer although even that he didn't showcase as much as his youtube vids showcase. He did make one good defensive play and one good defence splitting pass, but otherwise he was average. Movement was slow and I got the impression he'd struggle in the much faster PL and the pressing that a lot of teams do. Of course this is based on one match so I could have just caught him on a bad one.
Yes
Think
Gravenburch, Koopmeiners and Zakaria ( he was very good yesterday), all a lot cheaper
I wonder if Carrick can bring the passing out of a player like Rice or if he has already reached his max with it.
There is never a deep lying playmaker that is always going to be in the world's greatest in the tackles are they?
Pirlo was good at one but he had Gattuso. Xavi was good at one but had Busquests. Scholes arguably had Keanes, & others(and carrick/Hargreaves during the CL).
It kind of depends on what we really want right now; a dictator from the deep or a player that maybe holds one better (someone who holds a player like Pogba or his replacement).
There is never a deep lying playmaker that is always going to be in the world's greatest in the tackles are they?
Pirlo was good at one but he had Gattuso. Xavi was good at one but had Busquests. Scholes arguably had Keanes, & others(and carrick/Hargreaves during the CL).
It kind of depends on what we really want right now; a dictator from the deep or a player that maybe holds one better (someone who holds a player like Pogba or his replacement).
He's in a weird limbo stage right now where he's too good for West Ham but not quite ready for a top team. Whoever gets him is going to have to deal with a steep learning curve but in 2 or 3 years time could have a fantastic holding player.
Or we could just use our own eyes?
Exactly right and this my constant argument as if we had a pure out and out defensive midfielder like when we had Keane in his later years or Hargreaves it would mean we could play BOTH Fernandes and Pogba (if he stays) together and let them do their thing further forward.
Pogba will always drop deep and use his range of passing but he is NOT a defensive deep lying playmaker like a Pirlo or Xavi or Carrick all were so Pogba needs someone who has the mobility and stamina to cover all that ground needed (which Matic can’t do anymore) and shield the defence properly.
In having someone like Rice and a pacey yet not injury prone centre back like Konate we’d actually have a solid platform to go all out on teams that park the bus without fear of getting caught on the counter attack, Rice covers all ground in front of the defence whilst Konate who’s just an example rather than me saying he’s the solution has the pace to cover in behind Maguire just like Bailly is currently doing.
If we were then to sign a quality right sided attacker we’d have a perfectly balanced team which going forward would be for example Fernandes, Pogba, right sided attacker, Martial or Greenwood and Rashford whilst defensively would be for example AWB, new centre back, Maguire, Shaw and Rice.
I did see those numbers, but from that he seems extremely similar to what we have and I was looking at his unsuccessful touches/dispossessed numbers on whoscored and they were really poor.
Where are your numbers from?
@TheRedHearted
Where are your numbers from?
@TheRedHearted
The same guys who are being snobby over Rice probably thought Mane, Wijnaldum, Kante etc were bad signings who flattered to deceive. Truth is these players were too good for their current team and needed to jump to the next step up with a better team with the right coaching and direction. Rice is a quality player and I agree with the statement he would get into every Premier League team. He would certainly start in ours.
What are you on about? No one even knew who Kante was.
People fail to contextualise their performances in lesser sides.
E.g. a goalie for a relegation threatened side might have the most saves but not necessarily the most clean sheets because of the volume of shots they face.
Or a young attacker for a lower half side scoring 10 goals in a season is an achievement closer to 20-25 for a top side.
So would Rice play in a different way for Utd vs West Ham? Is his game suited to a team who will have more of the ball than West Ham? Does he have the physical attributes to cover more ground on his own in midfield when we are defending in transition?
When he went to Chelsea from Leicester?
But who would have said he was a shit signing then. He'd won the league?
I like Rice but I think for the touted 70m fee we could upgrade other parts of the side a lot better.
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He can only pass to what’s in front of him. Also he was solid on the ball and distributed well in both fixtures. Judging him based on one occasion against a far superior side isn’t exactly the best way to see how he would play for us.
Which match was it? The fact as a DM he’s making defence splitting passes is testament to how good he is. This was on a bad day too.
Precisely the point. There wouldn't be a debate about his efficacy at DM if we were paying 25m for him.
We've paid £80m for Maguire and £50m for Wan-Bissaka. £70m is good value for Rice in comparison although I think he'll go for ~£50m in the end.
The best aspect about rice would be the potential for us to switch to a 3 man midfield allowing another creative midfielder to advance as an 8 alongside Bruno effectively playing a 4-3-3.
Fred and Mctomminay play a double pivot more on the basis of balance to the squad, I don't think we can progress as a team with having them as first team members consistently throughout a season due to the lack of creativity that stems from their influence. I like Scott but he has too many hot and cold performances and the moment Pogba leaves our midfield will need someone with more dynamic passing range to break the lines.
Fred and Mctomminay play a double pivot more on the basis of balance to the squad, I don't think we can progress as a team with having them as first team members consistently throughout a season due to the lack of creativity that stems from their influence. I like Scott but he has too many hot and cold performances and the moment Pogba leaves our midfield will need someone with more dynamic passing range to break the lines.
Yup. I don't think we can pay 70m for Rice and then similar amounts for Grealish/Sancho and Haaland. And I would rather spend those amounts for those forwards instead of Rice.
Is it feck. We universally agree we overpaid for both, but at the time we needed them. We do not need to spend 70m on Rice.
The thing is Haaland will not come to United. He'll have all the clubs in the world fighting for him and I'm not sure he'll choose to come to us. I'm still not sure about Sancho as he's still blowing hot and cold and Dortmund will dig their heels in and be as difficult to deal with as they can after last season's debacle, not forgetting other clubs will also be in the mix for Sancho this time. Grealish is the only one I can see us actually getting but I don't think his signing is as important to improving us as a team as it is signing Rice.
We quite clearly need a defensive midfielder. Our current lot are not good enough. Matic is our actual only CDM and he's on his last legs. Against anyone decent, he's found wanting and we have to play two defensive minded players in Fred and McTominay to make up for the lack of a quality CDM.
We do not need to spend 70m on a defensive midfielder though - no one does for that matter. That pair currently has us top of the league, whilst there's a need to find more of a specialist, it's a ridiculous waste of money.
I don't think it's a waste of money, because he's much better value than most of the other options out there and importantly he's proven in the league. He's got the benefit of being home grown, English and also only 22. He seems to also have great leadership potential. He could be at United for the rest of his career.
And as the old saying goes, it's not our money. Some may say it takes money away from other places, but I honestly can't see us spending big money on Haaland/Sancho so otherwise the money just gets paid out as dividends into the Glazer's back pocket. Our lack of a CDM specialist is a big reason why we leak so many goals. If it plugs that gap, then why not sign him even if it is at a premium?
Tackles per game
Romeu (3.5), Allan (3.4), Kante (2.9), Phillips (2.9), Hojbjerg (2.8), Fred (2.7), Neves (2.3), Rice (1.9)
Interceptions per game
Kante (2.3), Rice (2.1), Jorginho (1.6), Fred (1.6), Neves (1.6)
Total tackles and interceptions per game
Kante (5.2), Romeu (5), Phillips (4.6), Allan (4.4), Fred (4.3), Hojbjerg (4), Rice (4), Neves (3.9)
Don't these stats prove that we already have the perfect Kante type player in Fred? I've always thought it and these stats back me up. We just need to play him with Pogba or Donny for the perfect balance. I don't know why Ole won't try it.
We play McFred and then wonder why we aren't creative. Play Frogba.
Romeu (3.5), Allan (3.4), Kante (2.9), Phillips (2.9), Hojbjerg (2.8), Fred (2.7), Neves (2.3), Rice (1.9)
Interceptions per game
Kante (2.3), Rice (2.1), Jorginho (1.6), Fred (1.6), Neves (1.6)
Total tackles and interceptions per game
Kante (5.2), Romeu (5), Phillips (4.6), Allan (4.4), Fred (4.3), Hojbjerg (4), Rice (4), Neves (3.9)
Don't these stats prove that we already have the perfect Kante type player in Fred? I've always thought it and these stats back me up. We just need to play him with Pogba or Donny for the perfect balance. I don't know why Ole won't try it.
We play McFred and then wonder why we aren't creative. Play Frogba.
I will not pretend I watch every West Ham game, but usually when I do, Rice looks good. And he has done so for a few years.
Statistically, it is hard to say without doing an in depth analysis. And I do not have the numbers to do that. But players who are poor passers are often less involved. As a team, you avoid playing through that player.
McTominay, as an example, makes 33,9 passes per 90 min. That is about 6 % of the passes Man Utd makes on average per 90 min. McTominay completion rate is 86 % in a team with an average of 84 %.
Rice is the player at West Ham with most passes per 90 min. He has an average of 48 per 90 min. That is 12 % of the team average at West Ham. He has a completion rate of 87 % in a team that average 77 %. That is good numbers!
Furthermore, he get the ball into the penalty area a decent amount being a DM at a team like West Ham. This season anyway. He did not do that last year, so it is something he has added to his game. This season he has managed 0,78 passes completed into the box and 0,33 crosses comleted into the box per 90 min (open play only). McTominay, Fred and Matic manage 0,39, 0,69 and 0,70 respectively. Matic, as the only one of these three, has 0,28 crosses completed per 90 min.
I think it is an interesting metric when you look at passing as it is a more difficult pass to do. And it is also an important pass. When you look at who makes the most passes into the penalty area players like KdB, Bruno, Pogba and Trent usually comes out at top.
I think the numbers support my impression from watching West Ham. Rice is not a natural like Scholes. But he is a lot better passer of the ball than McTominay. Probably at a similar level as Fred, maybe even better. And he is a beast of the ball, and young enough to improve.
Statistically, it is hard to say without doing an in depth analysis. And I do not have the numbers to do that. But players who are poor passers are often less involved. As a team, you avoid playing through that player.
McTominay, as an example, makes 33,9 passes per 90 min. That is about 6 % of the passes Man Utd makes on average per 90 min. McTominay completion rate is 86 % in a team with an average of 84 %.
Rice is the player at West Ham with most passes per 90 min. He has an average of 48 per 90 min. That is 12 % of the team average at West Ham. He has a completion rate of 87 % in a team that average 77 %. That is good numbers!
Furthermore, he get the ball into the penalty area a decent amount being a DM at a team like West Ham. This season anyway. He did not do that last year, so it is something he has added to his game. This season he has managed 0,78 passes completed into the box and 0,33 crosses comleted into the box per 90 min (open play only). McTominay, Fred and Matic manage 0,39, 0,69 and 0,70 respectively. Matic, as the only one of these three, has 0,28 crosses completed per 90 min.
I think it is an interesting metric when you look at passing as it is a more difficult pass to do. And it is also an important pass. When you look at who makes the most passes into the penalty area players like KdB, Bruno, Pogba and Trent usually comes out at top.
I think the numbers support my impression from watching West Ham. Rice is not a natural like Scholes. But he is a lot better passer of the ball than McTominay. Probably at a similar level as Fred, maybe even better. And he is a beast of the ball, and young enough to improve.
It was the match against Den Haag yesterday. Koop was ok in it, but nothing that really stood out as being good enough to make it in the Premier League, let alone with us. He just seemed a bit lazy in terms of his movement.
Probably the thing that most stood out is he was often slow at moving into position to get the ball. It's one thing that top deep playmakers tend to do well (think Scholes, Carrick, Busquets, Pirlo, etc) that they are always moving to offer themselves as an option to pass to. I'd really want the player we sign to provide that as well, even if he isn't as good on the ball as those players (not many are).
I don't know if that was his normal level or if he's normally better though.
That’s a frightening thought. We’d desperately need to sign a Sancho level wide playmaker to compensate.
Yeah, that’s great and all, but it’s not like McTominay and Fred are the barometer here. At least one of them should be 12th man type of thing at best. Neither are good enough to be long term starters if we want to stay where we are currently, and actually progress further in Europe. A £70m (odd) replacement who is at a ‘similar level’ to Fred, and a bit better than McTominay is absolutely not what we need.
Okay but how many of our PL 'proven' signings have been successes? Maguire, Sanchez, AWB, Lukaku (and several others) were all league proven and are not what I would call succesful signings for the money.
PL proven is meaningless, I hope if we decide to spend 70m on a player like Rice we have a reason beyond the fact he played in the PL.
Great post. He’s a terrific young player and has so much potential. He’s a proper leader who’s only just turned 22, has everything you’d want from a number 6 and is capable of playing at CB.
It’s a cliche but if he were called Diego Arroz and was doing the same thing at Sociedad people would be drooling over him.
£70m for a nailed on 100+ cap future England captain is a no brainer to me. United will regret it if they let Chelsea sign him instead.
This is just demonstrably not true. There are players all over Europe who do his role as well or better, or more potential. Even Camavinga would cost less than that, arguably one of the biggest talents in world football.
Well by all accounts we went for Sancho, so not sure what you mean. I personally am of the opinion he's more of a CB and there's no guarantee he could step up and produce what we're expecting, so 70m on the chance he will seems a terrible investment. Considering as well, pretty much no other team I can think of, that's been successful has invested that sort of money in a specialist DM.
There's nothing wrong with playing two defensive minded players together at the base of a 4231, the issue is that they need to provide more on the ball than what McTominay in particular does. Being more focused on the defensive side doesn't mean that they can't also provide quite a lot when we have the ball, they'll just probably do it from a deeper area. Fred is just about good enough, but it's ridiculous that we're relying on him being our main ball-player in central midfield most of the time since he's being partnered with Scott. We really need both players in there to be at least as good as Fred with their passing and movement, and preferably at least one of them should be quite a bit better.
I'd expect we'll still play Fred or McTominay (hopefully the former much more often) quite regularly next to the new guy even if we do sign one.
But no one would be saying we should be paying 70m for him either.
If he is at similar level on the ball as Fred is his a lot better overall. Off the ball Fred is weak tactically (always reactive, chasing the ball, not focusing on areas of danger) and not very suited to protecting a back four. He is suspect to make mistakes on our own third and dues to his size he can be bullied quite a lot (he gets dribled a lot). In my opinion, both Fred and McTominay would thrive of playing next to a mobile #6 with pace. Neither of them is really suited to that. They are better a bit higher up when they can move more freely.
Well, yeah, mostly because of the “unproven in the PL” thing so it’s swings and roundabouts I suppose.
£70m is about the equivalent of £25m in 2005. It’s just inflation. If you look at it that way, it’s not a bad price for him at all.
From watching a lot of the both of them, Rice is a much better passer than Fred in my opinion (and is consistently improving that part of his game while being 6 years younger).
Yeah, i think to put down Rice for not being this amazing passer on the ball needs to be relaxed, its not the type of CDM he is.
Rice is more a player that brings the attacking freedom & abilities to others rather than being the creator himself.
He is still a relatively young player for a down and dirty role aswell so you hope players like Carrick can help bring the well roundes best out of him too.
I also think when watching Matic that he drops to create a back 3 whilst letting everyone else attack. I can see Rice doing this and having 2 ball playing CB's long term next to him which covers that need for a deeply lying playmaker instead.
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