None of them can play the holding role. I really think people underestimate what Matic is doing both defensively and offensively.
Declan Rice
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It doesn't always work out so straight forwardly when signing players from abroad. Jorginho was meant to be the missing link at Chelsea. Bakayoko too. At Liverpool Naby Keita was supposed to be the guy to take the even higher. Daley Blind was supposed to be our new Carrick. Tanguy NDombele was everyone's muppet fantasy on here last summer etc etc
And those two have been playing in the holding role this season and have done very well this season. Make the DM priority when Matic leaves the club not when he's still at the club.
If anything you underestimate Maguire's impact for the club and ignoring the impact that both Scott & Fred had done this season. If you ask anyone, would you rather see Bailly-Lindelof partnership or see Fred/Scott play alongside Bruno & Pogba, I think the answer is very clear which one among these two choice you can trust.
Matic does not have the legs to play so many big games in a season. He has had dips in form due to fatigue in the past. Unless we can rely on Scott to nail the DM role so they can rotate, the perhaps landing another young specialist DM is wise
I don't know why can't we rotate three of Fred, Matic & Scott for one spot. Those two played in the role just fine this season, it's better to get someone specialist but at the same time money needs to be spent wisely on something that we need more and getting DM at this moment isn't top priority imo. We've seen Scholes & Anderson play together in midfield 2 and none of them are specialist holding midfield. If you can do the job in the role then that's fine.
He’s a good player but we don’t need to spend that much money. I have a feeling he’ll agitate to leave if Chelsea go in for him and they’ll get him for a decent-ish price. We’d have to pay a lot and I’m sure there are solid options from smaller leagues who could grow into the role while we still have matic here. Hopefully we don’t make the mistake of running him into the ground and leaving it till the last minute to replace him.
So who's the defender to get? If Maguire gets injured who's the defender and what defensive pairing would it be that would be better than Lindelof and Bailly/Tuanzebe
They didn't really. Fred & McTominay together is different to Fred & Pogba together or McTominay or Pogba. If you're going to play Pogba and Fernandes in midfield together then you need a good DM. As well as Fred and McTominay have done, they're not top defensive midfielders
Dayot Upamecano
What is a good DM in your view here?
They aren't even defensive midfielders. They are energetic box to box midfielders. They should be competing with Pogba not Matic
A young inconsistent and injury prone defender with potential that would have to be given time to adapt to the premier league. Currently he isn't much of an upgrade on Lindelof or Baily. We would be in the same position with him if Maguire gets injured. I'm aware we need a CB but we need a significant upgrade on Lindelof and Bailly which Upamecano
I did say that we can sign a CB that doesn't need to be directly Lindelof's replacement but can also be potential of 1-2 years as replacement. Dayot Upamecano is one of the many young centre back who have potential to take Lindelof's spot.
Roy Keane was originally energetic box to box. Fletcher was box to box midfielders. Pep wanted to sign Fred as Fernandinho's replacement. Doesn't make the player can't play in the role.
We are talking about a replacement if Maguire is out and how our defense should still be solid. Upamecano and Lindelof pairing isn't really an upgrade on Lindelof and Bailly pairing
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Good points.
I also agree Upamencano would be a good shout although it’s more cost effective to trust Bailly/Tuanzebe/Mengi to develop.
These have nothing to do with whether they can play Matic's role or not. Look at how Mctominay or Fred plays on the pitch. What abilities does Fred or Mctominay have that can make either of them play Matic's role with Bruno and Pogba in midfield
You are talking to yourself them. I am talking about the reason why we needed to sign a centre back and it's not just for one reason as Maguire's replacement.
I would rather see Upamecano and Lindelof than Lindelof & Bailly.
Suit yourself then. Upamecano isn't good enough for me at this point. He has potential but so does Tuanzebe
Your way of thinking is so one dimension. Of course those have something to do with it.
Matic, Scott & Fred offer different things, we can rotate them depends on who's our opposition.
Against lower team, Matic will be much more suitable candidate to play alongside Pogba & Bruno, his composure and his ball playing on the ball is needed and he's a type of player who is suitable when playing in much more possession. While against team who is not afraid to attack, Scott or Fred will be much more suitable due to their work rate. Fred can also be used against the lower team since he's good on the ball and his awareness & composure have improved this season when under pressure.
They can't play the role Matic does right now. For Maguire, we'd have Bailly coming in. Maguire is rarely injured though, he's a centre half so he doesn't need rest, and he's captain too, so should be prepared to play every game. Anyway I'm open to signing a CB if we're to play the waiting game with defensive midfield.
You could also say the same on our young DM.
Potential is potential if you can't stay fit to challenge for the spot. Upamecano isn't the only young centre back out there.
This all started when I said what if Matic gets injured? If that happens they would have to play whether we are keeping possession or not, whether we are facing a big team or not. With how easily Fred gets dribbled past, playing him in the holding role would be costly
Calling out names of people that successfully changed positions like Keane and Fletcher is just trying to push your argument because there are also players that switched positions and failed. It's not one dimensional thinking
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What about you read the whole thing, you missed something especially in the last sentence.
Getting dribbled past isn't really the big issue if the player can recover from it which reflects to why Fred is very good on winning the ball back and also when you have full back who is known with their defensive ability to provide cover. Think about why Fred was targeted by Pep in the first place.
For Fred, we are both basing the argument on an assumption since Fred has never played in a midfield with two attack minded players like Bruno and Pogba or De Bruyne and Silva. I'm not going to pretend like I know Fred for a fact cannot play there because I haven't seen him there so I judge based on his ability and from that I don't think he can. He's an energetic box to box. And I don't take Guardiola's opinion as gospel. He's made some odd choices that didn't work out.
If we want to trust Mengi & Tuanzebe to develop we can always sign the short term one like Koulibally. End of the day, Lindelof imo isn't a long term one to be relied on week in week out.
Yeah, I agree
Someone that can protect the back four, is positionally good, can keep possession, good tackler and intelligent. That's what I'd be looking for.
When I mentioned Roy Keane & Fletcher were energetic box to box originally but your response was that it has nothing to do with it. Clearly it has something to do with it. Being energetic box to box doesn't mean the player can't play in the holding role. I judge on Fred's ability that he can play there. You didn't judge based on his ability, you judged based on "he never play there". Matic was originally attacking midfield before he left Chelsea to join Benfica if I remember.
So Fred then.
Guess this settles it. You think Fred can go from box to box to DM because you think he has all these qualities. While I don't think he has all these in his locker which would make playing him DM risky
No. He doesn't protect the back four well, he's not positionally good and doesn't appear to have the intelligence I'd want in a DM. And obviously I mean at a high level
I really don't understand how Fred fits that? He's watched a different Fred to me!
Fletcher was known as energetic box to box originally, not only that he was heavily criticized for his positioning & his possession ability. And yet what a DM he was for us.
The three of Matic, Fred & Scott have the ability to play there and what they can offer against certain opposition. Each of them have weakness that also not suitable against certain opposition. All of these things I have explained in my previous post (so up to you if you want to re-read them and you have right to believe what you want to believe). IMO Scott & Fred have done well this season and deserve to put faith on them for at least another season.
Decided to watch Newcastle Villa today mainly to watch Declan Rice, because I've often felt he's flattered to deceive but I have to say I've been impressed.
Haha. Oops. Similar kit to be fair
I think he'll end up at Chelsea but we'd be silly not to consider him. He's really had to mature playing in this West Ham team and he will only improve with better players around him. Add to that he can cover two positions and it's a no brainer for me. Neither Fred or Mctominay have the discipline to play the Matic role and he'd probably already be a better CB option than any of our current crop except possibly Maguire.
I'd go for him
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