Declan Rice

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@Adnan's point about the different era Carrick played in and Rice's suitability for the right sort of top level side is well made.

But if we're making a comparsion with the Madrid midfield, the key point is that they didn't pay 60-100m for Casemiro in that facilitator role. Hell, they didn't even pay that for Modric or Kroos. And if they had been faced with that level of outlay to secure Casemiro, they would likely have gone down a different route.

And that's really the insurmountable issue with Rice. I have zero doubt that an extremely mobile, physically imposing and very two-footed DM with excellent positional sense can function in a top level side even without having an expansive passing range. But simply in terms of allocating resources, opting for the most expensive possible option in that role while other areas are crying out for investment would seem like sub-optimal squad building.
 
sullydnl said:
@Adnan's point about the different era Carrick played in and Rice's suitability for the right sort of top level side is well made.

But if we're making a comparsion with the Madrid midfield, the key point is that they didn't pay 60-100m for Casemiro in that facilitator role. Hell, they didn't even pay that for Modric or Kroos. And if they had been faced with that level of outlay to secure Casemiro, they would likely have gone down a different route.

And that's really the insurmountable issue with Rice. I have zero doubt that an extremely mobile, physically imposing and very two-footed DM with excellent positional sense can function in a top level side even without having an expansive passing range. But simply in terms of allocating resources, opting for the most expensive possible option in that role while other areas are crying out for investment would seem like sub-optimal squad building.
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Completely agree, I don't think it's sensible for us to shell out the amount West Ham will likely want.

For me it's about a creating a midfield composition where we can both initiate attacks, as well thwart counters. And we can do that without paying a ridiculous sum for one player.
 
Bebestation said:
Who are the players that he can bring that can play as this hybrid CB/CDM player? For me, Rice plays like this for Moyes. I want to know who else is available in the the market that can play like this.
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He also plays like this for England. Rice will fit in well at United, if used correctly. Would I spend 100m on Rice? No. But will I be happy if he joined Utd? Hell yes.
 
pawanraj said:
He also plays like this for England. Rice will fit in well at United, if used correctly. Would I spend 100m on Rice? No. But will I be happy if he joined Utd? Hell yes.
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Captained his club last night to a win, while not worth 70mil as a player alone. As captain and player I think he is.

He's seems like a down to earth lad, whether he could stay like that at United I don't know.
 
Bebestation said:
I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings on here :

But whenever I watch Rice - the first thing that comes to my head is how he is tactically brilliant at blocking off the central opposition attack before the attack has even reached him. The further you watch Rice from (paying attention to the whole West ham team instead) the more it looks like he does absolutely crap all for a full 90 mins.

He is just always positions at the right place at the right time which leaves the opposition team having to usually go around him than to try take him on centrally.

He has blocked off the passing lanes centrally of an attack leaving the opposition to go out wide through a pass.

Rice is constantly positioning himself to the point that he is the one who gives West Ham their tactical shape. Its not Soucek who is on the other side of the pitch. Its not Lanzini who is creating or attacking in the final third. It's Rice.

For me he is absolutely brilliant tactically and I feel that people who don't appreciate what he does simply don't see that tactical aspect of football that is being played by Rice.

Its no use to talk about Rice's unseen ability to dribble out of a collective press with ease because whilst from distance he looks like a non technical player, the more you watch him the more you realise the things he does that he simply shouldn't have been able to. He takes the ball on runs through the match when he feels that the rest of the West Ham need a goal. He also starts taking more risks with his passing in the last quarter of the game which starts showing that he can pass the ball but doesn't want to take unnecessary risks which can lead to his own team getting attacked on the counter. (Aka the opposite to Bruno's mistakes that some people don't like ).

If Ten Hag comes here then I'm pretty sure then Rice will be looked at quite deep because Ten Hag's tactics and Rice's natural game of falling in to a back 3, dribbling out with the ball, protecting the central space and passing the ball to other players actually mix and match very well. Ten Hag maybe able to find a cheaper option, but to me that tactic is not going anywhere and for that reason Rice will be looked as the more defensively solid version of Ten hag's hybrid CB/CDM player whilst someone like De Jong should be looked at as the more creative option of the same player.
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Brilliant post.

I'd like to him a team that uses pressing triggers, didn't see much of it yesterday.

I don't known he would work well with Maguire because of pace on that side, maybe offer them Maguire and 60mil?
 
Carrick was more of a ball player than Rice.

Rice is more of a Lampard/Carrick/Ince hybrid - he just needs sort his shooting out now. He has power but needs to concentrate on improving his accuracy and the number of goals he scores.

As for transfer business between West Ham and Manchester United, the flow is more likely to be towards West Ham given the clamour for a clear out and rebuild at Manchester United. Moyes' fondness for picking up out of favour players such as Lingard, and previously the likes of Howard, Neville and Saha when at Everton, is a long term trait.

If the likes of Shaw, Maguire, McTominay even Rashford are being looked at as surplus, Moyes will have an interest.
 
When it comes to breaking the lines with passing, that is being done less by the DM nowadays and more by either fullbacks, CBs or AMs staying ahead of the DM. So even if it's not Rice's best suite it's not a significant flaw.
 
Bebestation said:
I don't mean to hurt anyone's feelings on here :

But whenever I watch Rice - the first thing that comes to my head is how he is tactically brilliant at blocking off the central opposition attack before the attack has even reached him. The further you watch Rice from (paying attention to the whole West ham team instead) the more it looks like he does absolutely crap all for a full 90 mins.

He is just always positions at the right place at the right time which leaves the opposition team having to usually go around him than to try take him on centrally.

He has blocked off the passing lanes centrally of an attack leaving the opposition to go out wide through a pass.

Rice is constantly positioning himself to the point that he is the one who gives West Ham their tactical shape. Its not Soucek who is on the other side of the pitch. Its not Lanzini who is creating or attacking in the final third. It's Rice.

For me he is absolutely brilliant tactically and I feel that people who don't appreciate what he does simply don't see that tactical aspect of football that is being played by Rice.

Its no use to talk about Rice's unseen ability to dribble out of a collective press with ease because whilst from distance he looks like a non technical player, the more you watch him the more you realise the things he does that he simply shouldn't have been able to. He takes the ball on runs through the match when he feels that the rest of the West Ham need a goal. He also starts taking more risks with his passing in the last quarter of the game which starts showing that he can pass the ball but doesn't want to take unnecessary risks which can lead to his own team getting attacked on the counter. (Aka the opposite to Bruno's mistakes that some people don't like ).

If Ten Hag comes here then I'm pretty sure then Rice will be looked at quite deep because Ten Hag's tactics and Rice's natural game of falling in to a back 3, dribbling out with the ball, protecting the central space and passing the ball to other players actually mix and match very well. Ten Hag maybe able to find a cheaper option, but to me that tactic is not going anywhere and for that reason Rice will be looked as the more defensively solid version of Ten hag's hybrid CB/CDM player whilst someone like De Jong should be looked at as the more creative option of the same player.
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We definitely should not be signing a player who is technically adapt at playing as a quality midfielder. That's just not the Glazer way.

I'd give up on him now and ensure Jones receives a new contract post haste.
 
I'd tell Rice to wait until he costs Sancho level + max 10%.

Too many players have failed at 100million & above range for me to the point I feel like it can turn to a mental issue.
 
sullydnl said:
@Adnan's point about the different era Carrick played in and Rice's suitability for the right sort of top level side is well made.

But if we're making a comparsion with the Madrid midfield, the key point is that they didn't pay 60-100m for Casemiro in that facilitator role. Hell, they didn't even pay that for Modric or Kroos. And if they had been faced with that level of outlay to secure Casemiro, they would likely have gone down a different route.

And that's really the insurmountable issue with Rice. I have zero doubt that an extremely mobile, physically imposing and very two-footed DM with excellent positional sense can function in a top level side even without having an expansive passing range. But simply in terms of allocating resources, opting for the most expensive possible option in that role while other areas are crying out for investment would seem like sub-optimal squad building.
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100% agree with this. We made the same mistake with Maguire and Pogba, vastly overspending on individual players that when they don't meet expectations we are stuck with them. Clubs with better recruitment policies (Liverpool, Madrid etc.) seem to be able to locate good players in key positions using a scouting network and not overpay for them. We used to do this as well (Vidic, Evra generation etc.). No idea what has happened to our scouting network in recent times which should be seriously evaluated.
 
pcaming said:
This here is why any discussion is pointless. I don't know if Rice is the right fit, that would depend on the coach, I'm pretty sure he'd improve us...The cost just doesn't make any kind of sense unfortunately.
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Yep, there is no point even going into negotiations with such price demands. It would be worth just putting an offer to Rice's agent saying we would like to have the player but we will not be paying more than £60m.

If West Ham price him out, thats up to him and his agent to take it up with West Ham.
 
RedRoach said:
100% agree with this. We made the same mistake with Maguire and Pogba, vastly overspending on individual players that when they don't meet expectations we are stuck with them. Clubs with better recruitment policies (Liverpool, Madrid etc.) seem to be able to locate good players in key positions using a scouting network and not overpay for them. We used to do this as well (Vidic, Evra generation etc.). No idea what has happened to our scouting network in recent times which should be seriously evaluated.
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It's also about the current state of your squad.

If you're in a position of strength and already challenging for major trophies then you can better afford to concentrate your resources towards individual players, because you may only need two or so signings in a given transfer window. At that point there is less downside to paying premium prices for the most obvious targets. Whereas when you know you need a greater turnover of players over the coming years then your approach has to be different.

Taking City for example, it wasn't an issue for them to spend a massive fee on Grealish last summer. Because they already had an excellent team, they only needed to strengthen a few positions and even if he didn't work out this season they were likely to compete for major trophies regardless. Whereas if we were to make a signing like that in our current situation it would be madness. Because we don't have the luxury of so few weaknesses that we can opt for the most obvious and expensive picks in every position.
 
I don't agree with the people that say Rice is only worth 60mil.

I can understand him not being over 100 mil, but a max of 60 mil is quite small for me. That doesn't even buy you Nicolas Pepe.
 
Isotope said:
There just many ways to skin the cat. Bayern under Heynckes is my favorite. 4-4-1-1 with 2 DM/CM comfortable spraying passes.

But then Klopp's 4-3-3 with no CM controller has been very successful either.
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Why are you skinning cats again?
 
Bebestation said:
I don't agree with the people that say Rice is only worth 60mil.

I can understand him not being over 100 mil, but a max of 60 mil is quite small for me. That doesn't even buy you Nicolas Pepe.
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The only CMs to ever sell over 60m are Pogba, FDJ, and Rodri and the latter two were just over that mark.

Rice really should not cost more than 60-70m, even applying some English tax. Anything above that and West Ham are just ripping the buyer off because they can.
 
Powderfinger said:
The only CMs to ever sell over 60m are Pogba, FDJ, and Rodri and the latter two were just over that mark.

Rice really should not cost more than 60-70m, even applying some English tax. Anything above that and West Ham are just ripping the buyer off because they can.
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I agree. I think the Sancho mark is the best price for Rice that is realistic.
 
Depends how West Ham fair in Europa League. If they win it then cash won’t be as much of a concern for them to progress the playing squad.
Also More unlikely the player will push for a summer move if they can show ambition on that front. To say he would be better off for another year in that situation given his development in the past year, than joining us at this juncture is pretty obvious I’d say for any neutral.
 
80m for him is realistic. Will probably be available for that next year. Problem arises if you need a midfielder this year, do you go for a cheaper option and wait 1 year for him to become available or do you spend on another quality midfielder and let them duke it out next year.
 
For me it’s not about Rice, he improves us but it’s the price….
 
Adnan said:
I like both setups mate and wish we had a peak Schweinsteiger at the club who was comfortable with the game infront of him aswell as behind him.

Klopp does it slightly differently but his midfielders are strong both with the game infront of them, as well as behind them.

Casemiro is among the most successful DMs ever and his passing range was never expansive, but his ability to simplify his game in possession as well as having the ability to defend large space, was the key to making a midfield 3 of himself, Modric and Kroos, the best in the world for a sustained period of time in Europe. And their domination in Europe is testament to that.
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:lol: Your requirement is not much. Just need to get two of the best controller CMs in the last Decade. We'll be extremely lucky if we even get one.
 
Adnan said:
Jorginho is most effective if the game is played in front of him and not behind him. And from what I saw of Italy in the Euro's, they defended with more players than they were attacking with, which helps Jorginho. Against England in the final, England didn't press high, so it was easy for players like Jorginho to help transition play without having to deal with opposition high pressure.

And from what I've seen of Chelsea this season, Jorginho has been on the bench and Kovacic and Kante have played in midfield in the big games.

Nobody is saying ability on the ball isn't important for any player, hence people like me were against the signing of Aaron Wan Bissaka. But Rice is good on the ball, and his ability to retain possession and pass with both feet comfortably is easily noticeable. But there's a reality in the game today, and both offensive and defensive transitions have to be taken into consideration if we're to challenge Jurgen Klopp and Guardiola at City.

When Carrick was in his peak, pressing high in a coordinated press wasn't a thing in the EPL. Teams in the league would retreat after losing the ball, which is very different to what we see now with teams looking to stay in a compact high block to squeeze the pitch. The only time I've seen Carrick pressed in a coordinated fashion was against Barcelona in the Champions league final, and he just couldn't handle it. No mobility or agility and the passing game went to pot because he couldn't evade the opponent's press.
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I think you basing Carrick's ability to withstand a coordinated press based on a CL final where he played against arguably the best team in modern football is seriously flawed. You think if Rice played in a two man midfield with Giggs up against Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Messi as a false 9 that he also would not have been seriously exposed.

You're also downplaying the speed and intensity of the previous era. The pressing might not have been as coordinated as they were post Pep but pressing still existed and dominating in midfield still required keeping the ball under pressure which is something Scholes and Carrick excelled at. You think teams just let us have the ball especially at away grounds? They tried to squeeze us to but were aware that Carrick and Scholes were elite at passing through the lines and one pass could open up an entire team. It would be no different if he played today, he'd be even better IMO.

Park Ji Sung did a number on Pirlo when we smashed Milan 4-0 at home when he pressed him all game. Sometimes you can just have a bad game, which is what Pirlo had, as did Carrick vs Barca.

Jorginho played two tournaments at the highest level and surely would have faced the coordinated press you speak of at some point. What's more important is both coaches had players around him to get the best out of his strengths and to minimise his weaknesses. Him losing his place is due to the form of Kovacic more than anything.

If we had the option of Rice today or Carrick at 24 I really don't see how anyone can pick Rice over him. The exact player Fred needs to play alongside is Carrick. As much importance as you place on pressing we would still have the lion share of possession against most teams, that is where it the difference in class between them both will appear.
 
The values are very hard to gauge. Can we even say that the market is still inflated ? It's been a few years since prices for players has soared it's become a base that's why agents are telling their clients to run down contracts.

It's not like the financial indexes where there's a correction causing a sense of normalcy. Rice at 80 million seems about right because as it stands in 3 or so years time 80 million will seem like decent value. Unless there's a major change in the regulation of the footballing transfer market it will continue to remain a mess.
 
jesperjaap said:
Whether his value is £50/60m to a club buying him, his value is definately fare exceeding that to West Ham. Lets say they sell him for £50m. Does that money improve the team without him, I dont think so
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It doesn’t improve West Ham of course not but as good as Rice is for them no buying club should be looking at shelling out for him at that cost.

It’s a lot more cost effective to invest in scouting infrastructure and find a cheaper alternative that while not PL proven can do the job whilst we improve other areas too.
sullydnl said:
@Adnan's point about the different era Carrick played in and Rice's suitability for the right sort of top level side is well made.

But if we're making a comparsion with the Madrid midfield, the key point is that they didn't pay 60-100m for Casemiro in that facilitator role. Hell, they didn't even pay that for Modric or Kroos. And if they had been faced with that level of outlay to secure Casemiro, they would likely have gone down a different route.

And that's really the insurmountable issue with Rice. I have zero doubt that an extremely mobile, physically imposing and very two-footed DM with excellent positional sense can function in a top level side even without having an expansive passing range. But simply in terms of allocating resources, opting for the most expensive possible option in that role while other areas are crying out for investment would seem like sub-optimal squad building.
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This 100%
 
El Jefe said:
I think you basing Carrick's ability to withstand a coordinated press based on a CL final where he played against arguably the best team in modern football is seriously flawed. You think if Rice played in a two man midfield with Giggs up against Xavi, Iniesta, Busquets and Messi as a false 9 that he also would not have been seriously exposed.

You're also downplaying the speed and intensity of the previous era. The pressing might not have been as coordinated as they were post Pep but pressing still existed and dominating in midfield still required keeping the ball under pressure which is something Scholes and Carrick excelled at. You think teams just let us have the ball especially at away grounds? They tried to squeeze us to but were aware that Carrick and Scholes were elite at passing through the lines and one pass could open up an entire team. It would be no different if he played today, he'd be even better IMO.

Park Ji Sung did a number on Pirlo when we smashed Milan 4-0 at home when he pressed him all game. Sometimes you can just have a bad game, which is what Pirlo had, as did Carrick vs Barca.

Jorginho played two tournaments at the highest level and surely would have faced the coordinated press you speak of at some point. What's more important is both coaches had players around him to get the best out of his strengths and to minimise his weaknesses. Him losing his place is due to the form of Kovacic more than anything.

If we had the option of Rice today or Carrick at 24 I really don't see how anyone can pick Rice over him. The exact player Fred needs to play alongside is Carrick. As much importance as you place on pressing we would still have the lion share of possession against most teams, that is where it the difference in class between them both will appear.
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I'm actually judging Carrick's ability to play as the most disciplined midfielder in the game today, where top teams look to play the game in the opponents half and look to apply a coordinated high pressing game, which requires the team to play in a compact high block. Playing in such a way requires the midfield to defend inside the opponents half and also will require the DM to defend a large space from time to time against the quickest of attackers. And in that scenario it's more effective for a team to have a Declan Rice who is that little bit more mobile and tenacious in dealing with opposition transitions. What happened against Barca can easily be forgiven, because their midfielders were comfortably better than ours both in and out of possession. And they had the advantage of being coached to apply coordinated pressures and the tactical foul via the 6 second rule, which came into effect upon losing the ball in dangerous areas.

The pace and intensity is even quicker now imo, because now players like Carrick would have to partake in the press sequence, rather than stay goal side in a particular position. He would be required to get out of his comfort zone and help the collective apply the press in a compact block and I don't believe he would've been good at that aspect of the game, especially high up the pitch. Roy Keane for example would be far superior imo, because his all round game with and without the ball was better than Carrick's. And he provided a intensity and a dynamism that is missing currently in our game today. And until the arrival of Pochettino at Soton, applying coordinated pressures wasn't as well known in the EPL or wasn't deemed a effective method.

Park Ji Sung did a number on Pirlo by man marking him and it had very little to do with coordinated pressures imo. And that actually reinforces my point, that it wasn't difficult to stop a deep lying play maker who wasn't the most mobile, if the opponent could close of their space.

Jorginho is comfortable if the game is played in-front of him, hence both Mancini and Tuchel setup in such a way where he could be protected. Put Jorginho as the anchor in a team that looks to play in the opponents half and I believe he would struggle against the transition. He's a midfielder who is comfortable in a low/mid block, and unless the aim is to setup in such a way, i'm hoping we look to finally transition into a high pressing team.

I'm actually not paying too much attention to coordinated pressures, but it's something that has to seriously be taken into consideration when signing players. Because it's not only what you do with the ball now, but also it's equally just as important what you do without the ball. And there's a method to the madness, which if executed well, can be very beneficial for a team. Give me Tchouameni or Rice as the most disciplined DM, with two creative #8s in tandem in the modern game. Then that will create the conditions to sacrifice defensive stability for goals, with the added benefit of applying a intense pressing game, which I've never seen at United in a methodical way.

10 -15 years ago my answer would've been Carrick, but today I feel it's best to look at a different profile of player.
 
Isotope said:
:lol: Your requirement is not much. Just need to get two of the best controller CMs in the last Decade. We'll be extremely lucky if we even get one.
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I'd like to see how a midfield 3 of Tchouameni/Rice as the DM with Hannibal and Garner would get on right now.
 
Adnan said:
I'd like to see how a midfield 3 of Tchouameni/Rice as the DM with Hannibal and Garner would get on right now.
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That would be a shit show and I like all 3.

There not enough experience in that combination but I understand (I think) the wider point you’re trying to make surrounding complementary styles.
 
BenitoSTARR said:
That would be a shit show and I like all 3.

There not enough experience in that combination but I understand (I think) the wider point you’re trying to make surrounding complementary styles.
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I agree with you mate. But my point was in relation to the post I was responding to, and name dropping Garner and Hannibal was a just a way to show my patience in seeing the development of our midfield, rather than me wanting the greatest controlling midfielders, which Isotope alluded to in a friendly manner.
 
Adnan said:
I agree with you mate. But my point was in relation to the post I was responding to, and name dropping Garner and Hannibal was a just a way to show my patience in seeing the development of our midfield, rather than me wanting the greatest controlling midfielders, which Isotope alluded to in a friendly manner.
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It’s an experiment I’d love to see too. Potentially it solves a lot of problems. The downside is the 2 young uns and how they’d get on, because if they aren’t ready that puts a lot of pressure on the new guy, especially if it’s rice because half the fans don’t rate him already
 
golden_blunder said:
It’s an experiment I’d love to see too. Potentially it solves a lot of problems. The downside is the 2 young uns and how they’d get on, because if they aren’t ready that puts a lot of pressure on the new guy, especially if it’s rice because half the fans don’t rate him already
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tbh with you, I've spoken to lots of fans in the north of England regarding Declan Rice and they all like him as a player. I'm yet to meet any football fan that doesn't rate Rice.
 
Adnan said:
I'm actually judging Carrick's ability to play as the most disciplined midfielder in the game today, where top teams look to play the game in the opponents half and look to apply a coordinated high pressing game, which requires the team to play in a compact high block. Playing in such a way requires the midfield to defend inside the opponents half and also will require the DM to defend a large space from time to time against the quickest of attackers. And in that scenario it's more effective for a team to have a Declan Rice who is that little bit more mobile and tenacious in dealing with opposition transitions. What happened against Barca can easily be forgiven, because their midfielders were comfortably better than ours both in and out of possession. And they had the advantage of being coached to apply coordinated pressures and the tactical foul via the 6 second rule, which came into effect upon losing the ball in dangerous areas.

The pace and intensity is even quicker now imo, because now players like Carrick would have to partake in the press sequence, rather than stay goal side in a particular position. He would be required to get out of his comfort zone and help the collective apply the press in a compact block and I don't believe he would've been good at that aspect of the game, especially high up the pitch. Roy Keane for example would be far superior imo, because his all round game with and without the ball was better than Carrick's. And he provided a intensity and a dynamism that is missing currently in our game today. And until the arrival of Pochettino at Soton, applying coordinated pressures wasn't as well known in the EPL or wasn't deemed a effective method.

Park Ji Sung did a number on Pirlo by man marking him and it had very little to do with coordinated pressures imo. And that actually reinforces my point, that it wasn't difficult to stop a deep lying play maker who wasn't the most mobile, if the opponent could close of their space.

Jorginho is comfortable if the game is played in-front of him, hence both Mancini and Tuchel setup in such a way where he could be protected. Put Jorginho as the anchor in a team that looks to play in the opponents half and I believe he would struggle against the transition. He's a midfielder who is comfortable in a low/mid block, and unless the aim is to setup in such a way, i'm hoping we look to finally transition into a high pressing team.

I'm actually not paying too much attention to coordinated pressures, but it's something that has to seriously be taken into consideration when signing players. Because it's not only what you do with the ball now, but also it's equally just as important what you do without the ball. And there's a method to the madness, which if executed well, can be very beneficial for a team. Give me Tchouameni or Rice as the most disciplined DM, with two creative #8s in tandem in the modern game. Then that will create the conditions to sacrifice defensive stability for goals, with the added benefit of applying a intense pressing game, which I've never seen at United in a methodical way.

10 -15 years ago my answer would've been Carrick, but today I feel it's best to look at a different profile of player.
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Judging from your posts you'd think football was invented in 2012. Back in the mid 2000s it was strange for Carrick to even be deployed in the role he ended up playing because most teams had the Tchouameni, Rice type that you speak of. Makelele, Mascherano, De Jong, Gilberto Silva were the type of combative and disciplined DMs that played then. Even though Keane wasn't a DM he still fit the mould of the players listed above. Carrick was seen as the complete opposite of that and people questioned if him and Scholes could work initially and it worked a treat.

Even Xabi Alonso, a similar type of player to Carrick was deployed alongside specialist DMs in the Mid-late 2000s with Sissoko or Mascherano but in the pressing era was the deepest midfielder for Madrid and Bayern. Would you take Rice ahead of him also as the deepest midfielder because he'd be more suited to a high press?

I feel you're too hung up on a particular type of football, not every game is a replay of Man City vs Liverpool. Very few games are actually a high press/counter press 90 minute tactical battle. Most teams that Liverpool or City play against wouldn't dare mark them high up the pitch because they'll get cut open as we did for the Keita goal against Liverpool this season. There's probably 10 games or less where teams will push up all the way on Rodri or Fabinho because it will be punished and you'll be opened up. Leeds, Southampton and more recently Everton are the perfect example of this, they get hammered because of this high press. For the most part teams will sit deeper against a better team and make you work to open them up. Carrick is levels above Rice in such situations.

You're also seriously underestimating Carricks ability defensively. He was a master of anticipating attacks and intercepting play, the same things Rice does. You're describing him as if he would be a libility in today's game which is strange as he'd be far more valuable today than he was in the era he played in. He's not too different to Rodri, Brozovic, Jorginho and they've not done too badly.

I also don't see why he would struggle to push up and win the ball higher up the pitch as that is all about coaching, reading the play and timing. Bernardo Silva is a pressing machine and is as lightweight as they come and not particularly quick either. I would understand if he was lazy like Pogba or slow like Matic but that wasn't the case with Carrick.
 
Adnan said:
tbh with you, I've spoken to lots of fans in the north of England regarding Declan Rice and they all like him as a player. I'm yet to meet any football fan that doesn't rate Rice.
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You know our lot, half them probably haven’t seen much of him but make judgements based on some internet narrative.
the point remains though there would be huge pressure on him if the others took too long to get up to speed
 
El Jefe said:
Judging from your posts you'd think football was invented in 2012. Back in the mid 2000s it was strange for Carrick to even be deployed in the role he ended up playing because most teams had the Tchouameni, Rice type that you speak of. Makelele, Mascherano, De Jong, Gilberto Silva were the type of combative and disciplined DMs that played then. Even though Keane wasn't a DM he still fit the mould of the players listed above. Carrick was seen as the complete opposite of that and people questioned if him and Scholes could work initially and it worked a treat.

Even Xabi Alonso, a similar type of player to Carrick was deployed alongside specialist DMs in the Mid-late 2000s with Sissoko or Mascherano but in the pressing era was the deepest midfielder for Madrid and Bayern. Would you take Rice ahead of him also as the deepest midfielder because he'd be more suited to a high press?

I feel you're too hung up on a particular type of football, not every game is a replay of Man City vs Liverpool. Very few games are actually a high press/counter press 90 minute tactical battle. Most teams that Liverpool or City play against wouldn't dare mark them high up the pitch because they'll get cut open as we did for the Keita goal against Liverpool this season. There's probably 10 games or less where teams will push up all the way on Rodri or Fabinho because it will be punished and you'll be opened up. Leeds, Southampton and more recently Everton are the perfect example of this, they get hammered because of this high press. For the most part teams will sit deeper against a better team and make you work to open them up. Carrick is levels above Rice in such situations.

You're also seriously underestimating Carricks ability defensively. He was a master of anticipating attacks and intercepting play, the same things Rice does. You're describing him as if he would be a libility in today's game which is strange as he'd be far more valuable today than he was in the era he played in. He's not too different to Rodri, Brozovic, Jorginho and they've not done too badly.

I also don't see why he would struggle to push up and win the ball higher up the pitch as that is all about coaching, reading the play and timing. Bernardo Silva is a pressing machine and is as lightweight as they come and not particularly quick either. I would understand if he was lazy like Pogba or slow like Matic but that wasn't the case with Carrick.
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Football wasn't invented in 2012, but the approach to a coordinated pressing game became a reality in the EPL with Pochettino and Rodgers taking advantage. And it wasn't strange at all to see Carrick play in a deeper role because the Dutch and other nations had been doing the same decades earlier.

Can you tell me which top team in the current climate is adopting a front front foot approach to playing the game, whilst having a Carrick or Xabi Alonso as the deepest DM? Busquets is the only one I can think of and even then he's probably the greatest DM of his kind to play the game.
 
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