Death Penalty

That_Bloke

Full Member
Joined
May 28, 2019
Messages
3,941
Location
Cologne
Supports
Leicester City
There are some for and some against, I belong to the latter category.

I will never deviate from the fact that death should always be the last resort, and only legitimate in case of self-defense. War is a topic I won't touch, since it's an entirely different matter with its own specific set of rules. Although the monopoly on violence should always be reserved to the rightful institutions, state murder is something that should never be cautioned, allowed or approved, in my opinion.

There's ever fewer countries across the world that apply the death penalty, but still too many. Here's a map of the countries which still practice it. In Europe, excepting Belarus, it has been completely abolished. Africa is surprisingly less retentionist than I would have thought. South-America is over it, at least in theory. The main offenders are mostly located in the Middle-East and Asia, and that includes Japan, an outstanding democracy. Last but not least the US, albeit only in certain states.

What prompted my need to create this thread is this particular story. A Japanese man was cleared today of all charges of murder after spending 46 years on death row. Whilst nothing and no one will ever be able to compensate him for the half-century he lost, it still warms my heart to see him being set free and not executed for a crime he didn't commit. A chance many never had and why I'm dead against this sentence (no pun intended).

My question is, which of you still believes in the necessity of capital punishment? And if so, why?
 
Last edited:
I don’t see much benefit in it. Once they’re dead, they can rest and the living are still suffering from their actions

I’d prefer to see the worst of the worst (like that Newport cnut) forced to live the rest of their life in a cramped windowless concrete room with nothing in it. Some mouldy food thrown in once a day. No communication with anyone
 
Whether you agree with it or not shouldn't really matter, the fact is it's a very flawed process that, in the US at least, leads to many innocent people getting executed and sometimes in absolutely horrific ways. In its current form it simply shouldn't be allowed.

John Oliver did a good segment a while ago

 
I'm strongly against it and I find it shocking that parts of the USA and Japan still have capital punishment. We have no right to take a life in the name of some kind of vengeful judicial "justice". It solves nothing and is more expensive that keeping someone in prison for the rest of their life (in the worst cases). In any case, people who spend decades in prison don't even tend to live into extreme old age.
 
Obviously a shit idea. Been proven to not be a deterrent in the slightest.
 
I am a liberal who is 'for' death penalty. But, only for extreme cases - serial killers, serial rapists, mass shooters, ped*os and major drug kingpins (not to be confused with petty dealers). Infact, I am for quick execution (months and not years after conviction).

There's two reasons for this:

1. Its sets an example.

2. There is no point spending tax dollars in keeping them alive.

Having said that, I am only for it, if and once we fix the broken system and ensure innocents are not wrongly punished with it. It might be impossible to do this 100% of the time, but if we get it right 95% of the time, then we are good.

Having said that, is there any stats on percent of people that are wrongly convicted?
 
Kaush949 said:
I am a liberal who is 'for' death penalty. But, only for extreme cases - serial killers, serial rapists, mass shooters, ped*os and major drug kingpins (not to be confused to petty dealers). Infact, I am for quick execution (months and not years after conviction).

There's two reasons for this:

1. Its sets an example.

2. There is no point spending tax dollars in keeping them alive.

Having said that, I am only for it, if and once we can fix the broken system and ensure innocents are not wrongly punished with it. It might be impossible to do this 100% of the time, but if we get it right 95% of the time, then we are good.

Having said that, is there any stats on percent of people that are wrongly convicted?
Click to expand...
Yo thats fecking mental :lol:
 
Kaush949 said:
I am a liberal who is 'for' death penalty. But, only for extreme cases - serial killers, serial rapists, mass shooters, ped*os and major drug kingpins (not to be confused with petty dealers). Infact, I am for quick execution (months and not years after conviction).

There's two reasons for this:

1. Its sets an example.

2. There is no point spending tax dollars in keeping them alive.

Having said that, I am only for it, if and once we fix the broken system and ensure innocents are not wrongly punished with it. It might be impossible to do this 100% of the time, but if we get it right 95% of the time, then we are good.

Having said that, is there any stats on percent of people that are wrongly convicted?
Click to expand...

I'm a liberal

okay pol pot we believe you
 
Massive Spanner said:
Whether you agree with it or not shouldn't really matter, the fact is it's a very flawed process that, in the US at least, leads to many innocent people getting executed and sometimes in absolutely horrific ways. In its current form it simply shouldn't be allowed.

John Oliver did a good segment a while ago

Click to expand...

Love Trump being all for the death penalty when he'd have been on the receving end of it not so long ago.

The rest of the video is absolutely chilling. Aside from the unnecessary suffering applied to the condemned (which is I believe, in contradiction with the US constitution), the merchantile and scummy aspect as to from whom should we get the drugs to legally kill people without their reputation taking a hit, is absolutely revolting. It reminds me of how absurd the sentence and its execution are.

I have no words for this whole pantomime .
 
Last edited:
LawCharltonBest said:
I don’t see much benefit in it. Once they’re dead, they can rest and the living are still suffering from their actions

I’d prefer to see the worst of the worst (like that Newport cnut) forced to live the rest of their life in a cramped windowless concrete room with nothing in it. Some mouldy food thrown in once a day. No communication with anyone
Click to expand...
That's one way to look at it, I guess.
 
SilentWitness said:
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...illiams-execution-missouri-time-b2618432.html

Missouri death row inmate Marcellus Williams executed despite even the prosecution thinking he was innocent​

There was this one too recently.
Click to expand...
I saw that too.

There should be at least some safeguards, in case of reasonable doubts which render the application of death penalty impossible under such circumstances.

I would love to hear the opinion of a lawyer/judge on the matter.
 
Last edited:
That_Bloke said:
There are some for and some against, I belong to the latter category.

I will never deviate from the fact that death should always be the last resort, and only legitimate in case of self-defense. War is a topic I won't touch, since it's an entirely different animal with its own specific set of rules. Although the monopoly on violence should always be reserved to the rightful institutions, state murder is something that should never be cautioned, allowed or approved, in my opinion.

There's ever fewer countries across the world that apply the death penalty, but still too many. Here's a map of the countries which still practice it. In Europe, excepting Belarus, it has been completely abolished. Africa is surprisingly less retentionist than I would have thought. South-America is over it, at least in theory. The main offenders are mostly located in the Middle-East and Asia, and that includes an outstanding democracy such as Japan. Last but not least the US, albeit only in certain states.

What prompted my need to create this thread is this particular story. A Japanese man was cleared today of all charges of murder after spending 46 years on death row. Whilst nothing and no one will ever be able to compensate him for the half-century he lost, it still warms my heart to see him being set free and not executed for a crime he didn't commit. A chance many never had and why I'm dead against this sentence (no pun intended).

My question is, which of you still believes in the necessity of capital punishment? And if so, why?
Click to expand...

The real question is if death penalty can act as a deterrence. If statistics don't support that, then I will change my stance. That's the end goal.
 
Kaush949 said:
The real question is if death penalty can act as a deterrence. If statistics don't support that, then I will change my stance. That's the end goal.
Click to expand...

I don't know whether you've noticed but there's lots of superbly corrupt and violent countries (now and throughout history) who use the death penalty.
 
Kaush949 said:
The real question is if death penalty can act as a deterrence. If statistics don't support that, then I will change my stance. That's the end goal.
Click to expand...
History has tended to prove the contrary.

There's been horrific death penalties (burned, boiled, drowned, impaled, crushed by an elefant, hanged and quartered, buried alive, death by a thousand cuts, etc.) across thousands of years and it never deterred some people to commit crimes, whatever the reason.

Death penalty has never been an effective deterrent as most of the criminals believe in the fact that they'll never be caught. Until they are. Some don't give a shit about it, others go with it as part of the game.

People are generally less appealed to commit crimes when their living conditions are satisfactory. It is no coincidence that most of the countries which renounced to the death penalty are the countries with the highest standard of living.
 
Last edited:
Kaush949 said:
The real question is if death penalty can act as a deterrence. If statistics don't support that, then I will change my stance. That's the end goal.
Click to expand...
It's hard to prove conclusively. Drug use is much less prevalent in some of the countries that have the death penalty for trafficking pretty low amounts, but that could be down to multiple factors.
Interestingly, a survey published last week by the Singapore government showed support for the death penalty is increasing.
https://www.mha.gov.sg/mediaroom/pr...esidents-support-the-use-of-the-death-penalty
 
TwoSheds said:
I don't know whether you've noticed but there's lots of superbly corrupt and violent countries (now and throughout history) who use the death penalty.
Click to expand...

I have to look into this further.

Countries that are not democracies, or with poor governance and high rates of corruption shouldn't be counted though. In these cases, death penalty can be used as an abuse of power.

In my view, Singapore is a great example of working system. Lowest crime rates in the world. Something has worked there.
 
Kaush949 said:
Ok, let me flip the question. Other than getting intel, what value does it bring in keeping the inmates of ADX Florence alive?
Click to expand...
That says more about ADX Florence than it does about anything else. Treat people like caged wild animals and you can expect wild behaviour. Yes, I know they're the worst of the worst criminals and extremely dangerous, but you surely don't have to keep them restrained when they're inside their cells?

I just read that although they can have an hour's exercise, that might be in the middle of the night. It's cruel not to let a man see the daylight.

edit - the UK has some incredibly dangerous prisoners too, but I doubt their incarceration is as unbearable as it must be in ADX Florence. The UK also has relatively few prisoners serving full-life terms, unlike the USA.
 
Kaush949 said:
I have to look into this further.

Countries that are not democracies, or with poor governance and high rates of corruption shouldn't be counted though. In these cases, death penalty can be used as an abuse of power.

In my view, Singapore is a great example of working system. Lowest crime rates in the world. Something has worked there.
Click to expand...

Do you think Singapore is the sort of society that could easily be replicated in larger countries the world over? And would we even want it to be? https://www.state.gov/reports/2022-country-reports-on-human-rights-practices/singapore/#:~:text=Significant human rights issues included,expression and media, including the

And how do you define what constitutes a corrupt or poorly governed country? Is the US corrupt?

What I can say with certainty is that Japan's low crime rate isn't because they have the death penalty. It's because they are a relentlessly respectful country with reasonable wealth. If anything the criminal justice system itself would be considered somewhat criminal in most western democracies: https://www.vox.com/world/2015/12/13/9989250/japan-crime-conviction-rate
 
Kaush949 said:
I am a liberal who is 'for' death penalty. But, only for extreme cases - serial killers, serial rapists, mass shooters, ped*os and major drug kingpins (not to be confused with petty dealers). Infact, I am for quick execution (months and not years after conviction).

There's two reasons for this:

1. Its sets an example.

2. There is no point spending tax dollars in keeping them alive.

Having said that, I am only for it, if and once we fix the broken system and ensure innocents are not wrongly punished with it. It might be impossible to do this 100% of the time, but if we get it right 95% of the time, then we are good.

Having said that, is there any stats on percent of people that are wrongly convicted?
Click to expand...
1. It never did and never will.

2. Keeping them alive is preventing a Iwao Hakamada or a Marcellus Williams to be killed despite them being innocent. The latter didn't get the chance despite a reasonable doubt in his culpability.

Interesting to see that you're willing to let 5% of the accused people being (unjustly) executed for the sake of upholding that penalty.

It does not matter. As soon as a law allows innocent people to be killed then there's a fundamental problem with it.
 
Last edited:
That_Bloke said:
Interesting to see that you're willing to let 5% of the accused people being (unjustly) executed for the sake of upholding that penalty.

It does not matter. As soon as a law allows innocent people to be killed then there's a fundamental problem with it.
Click to expand...
This is it really.
 
Red Star One said:
Relict of the past, doesn’t work as a deterrent and just unnecessarily problematic.
Click to expand...
Yet it still persists.

Not only in "backward third world countries", but also in some of the most advanced democracies in the world.

Why is that?
 
Last edited:
That_Bloke said:
There are some for and some against, I belong to the latter category.

I will never deviate from the fact that death should always be the last resort, and only legitimate in case of self-defense. War is a topic I won't touch, since it's an entirely different animal with its own specific set of rules. Although the monopoly on violence should always be reserved to the rightful institutions, state murder is something that should never be cautioned, allowed or approved, in my opinion.

There's ever fewer countries across the world that apply the death penalty, but still too many. Here's a map of the countries which still practice it. In Europe, excepting Belarus, it has been completely abolished. Africa is surprisingly less retentionist than I would have thought. South-America is over it, at least in theory. The main offenders are mostly located in the Middle-East and Asia, and that includes Japan, an outstanding democracy. Last but not least the US, albeit only in certain states.

What prompted my need to create this thread is this particular story. A Japanese man was cleared today of all charges of murder after spending 46 years on death row. Whilst nothing and no one will ever be able to compensate him for the half-century he lost, it still warms my heart to see him being set free and not executed for a crime he didn't commit. A chance many never had and why I'm dead against this sentence (no pun intended).

My question is, which of you still believes in the necessity of capital punishment? And if so, why?
Click to expand...
I honestly wonder if at some point he wondered whether he'd be better off dead?

I support the death penalty for the most serious crimes - but only if the evidence is irrefutable. It should also come after a 20 year prison sentence, so people don't think it's a quick route to "martyrdom". Cases i'm thinking of are like honour killings. I saw a brutal video of a Pakistani father honour killing his daughter - it was recorded and got spread on social media. There is no scope for that to be refuted. That guy would happily face the death penalty as some sort of sick honour thing, but i bet he'll regret being imprisoned for 20 years before he gets hung. Knowing the kangaroo courts in Pakistan he'll be "forgiven" somehow.
 
Classic liberal view of being fine with 5% of people who are executed being innocent just to send a message.
 
Mainoonited said:
I honestly wonder if at some point he wondered whether he'd be better off dead?

I support the death penalty for the most serious crimes - but only if the evidence is irrefutable. It should also come after a 20 year prison sentence, so people don't think it's a quick route to "martyrdom". Cases i'm thinking of are like honour killings. I saw a brutal video of a Pakistani father honour killing his daughter - it was recorded and got spread on social media. There is no scope for that to be refuted. That guy would happily face the death penalty as some sort of sick honour thing, but i bet he'll regret being imprisoned for 20 years before he gets hung. Knowing the kangaroo courts in Pakistan he'll be "forgiven" somehow.
Click to expand...

I see where you're coming from, but this only works in your mind. In reality you run into all the problems that are happening now. Who defines irrefutable evidence, for one? If there's not irrefutable evidence, why was someone convicted in the first place? I'm not sure "recorded and spread on social media" are great criteria, particularly with the deep-fake era we seem to be heading into.
 
That_Bloke said:
There are some for and some against, I belong to the latter category.

I will never deviate from the fact that death should always be the last resort, and only legitimate in case of self-defense. War is a topic I won't touch, since it's an entirely different animal with its own specific set of rules. Although the monopoly on violence should always be reserved to the rightful institutions, state murder is something that should never be cautioned, allowed or approved, in my opinion.

There's ever fewer countries across the world that apply the death penalty, but still too many. Here's a map of the countries which still practice it. In Europe, excepting Belarus, it has been completely abolished. Africa is surprisingly less retentionist than I would have thought. South-America is over it, at least in theory. The main offenders are mostly located in the Middle-East and Asia, and that includes Japan, an outstanding democracy. Last but not least the US, albeit only in certain states.

What prompted my need to create this thread is this particular story. A Japanese man was cleared today of all charges of murder after spending 46 years on death row. Whilst nothing and no one will ever be able to compensate him for the half-century he lost, it still warms my heart to see him being set free and not executed for a crime he didn't commit. A chance many never had and why I'm dead against this sentence (no pun intended).

My question is, which of you still believes in the necessity of capital punishment? And if so, why?
Click to expand...

I think people should remember this case the next time they go on about how efficient the Japanese justice system is. There's a reason nearly everyone who is charged is convicted, and it's not because they were all guilty.

There's also something particularly barbaric about the way Japan does capital punishment. There is no set time of execution, and prisoners are only told a few hours in advance. Families usually aren't told until after the fact. You can have someone sitting years on death row, and always be aware that they could be executed at any moment. That's torture.
 
That_Bloke said:
Yet it still persists.

Not only in "backward third wold countries", but also in some of the most advanced democracies in the world.

Why is that?
Click to expand...
Because other civilized people have a different opinion than you. Or maybe it just works for them?
 
nimic said:
Bit of a a weird response to someone making a thread asking for opinions on the death penalty, isn't it? Was there any other point to your post than putting him down?
Click to expand...
Not at all, I thought the point was that it was assumed the death penalty is only popular amongst so called uncivilized countries.

80% public support in Japan shows that maybe there isn't a right or wrong, but rather what works them, and what they are willing to accept. I don't think it necessarily makes someone lesser.
 
How can we still be having the same debate year after year with the same bogus arguments.

1. It’s not a deterrent
2. Countless innocent people have been executed
3. Irrefutable evidence doesn’t exist

No logical argument exists to maintain capital punishment, only emotional ones. Which should be dismissed out of hand.
 
mu4c_20le said:
Not at all, I thought the point was that it was assumed the death penalty is only popular amongst so called uncivilized countries.

80% public support in Japan shows that maybe there isn't a right or wrong, but rather what works them, and what they are willing to accept. I don't think it necessarily makes someone lesser.
Click to expand...

A vast majority of global executions happen in China, Iran, Saudi Arabia, so there's little to no evidence that its popular in the "civilized world". Japan would be an outlier. Even in the US, the trend for the past few decades has been towards those not in favor.
 
Against it. Deterrent or not, I think it's inhumane and I don't want to risk innocent people getting executed.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.