Then you let Salah make him go around you and actually work to get his goal, not just stand there and give him the whole goal to aim at.
You're having a mare on this one mate
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Then you let Salah make him go around you and actually work to get his goal, not just stand there and give him the whole goal to aim at.
You're having a mare on this one mate
We're not demanding a super human feat from him here. We're saying that between this point:
And this point:
He should have physically moved forward. If that's beyond him then we really are in trouble because it's a pretty basic ask from a goalkeeper. I mean the incoming defender managed to close the space in those "milliseconds". Expecting Henderson to budge forward a few yards is hardly being hyper-critical.
The positive thing about Dean this season is actually being good positioning and come out from his area. That has been part of his main aspect to be above DDG in pecking order. Making a claim that we are in trouble is just overreacting or overcritical because you are ignoring the thing that Dean has been good at and you are using a clear 9/10 chance of goal to hide it.
Like what I mentioned and also the other poster mentioned, it's easy to say than done when you look at how quick Salah was for that goal. Even if he does as per your comment, that would still be a clear 9/10 goal, don't you think? So the point of your worry won't change.
Schmeichel would have come out quickly as would VDS. These young lads need better teachers
Sell henderson this summer and keep de gea. Henderson hasnt convinced that he can be the no1.
Fair
He has made alot more mistakes very recently was not good in the Champions League but neither were the rest of the team. But he has hardly been a steady influence, he is erratic and is not that young he has played in the Premier league for a full season and is only ok.
Maybe DeGea is going to leave but think we will have a bigger problem than the Foster Howard or Carroll years. It is a very difficult position and maybe he needs time but he has not shown to be commanding he has not shown amazing reflexes he has not shown great ball distribution. He has not shown to be the level Manchester utd should aspire too,
Half the Premier league teams have a claim to having a better more consistent Keeper than Henderson would any of the teams we are going to be competing against next season swap their keeper for Henderson, I really don't think so.
I'm not convinced with Dean as well but using the 4th goal yesterday to make a point about him is a weak argument but only over-critical and overreacting. Yesterday game is definitely not the game that I consider my reason why I am not convinced with him.
Just give me someone who can command there area with authority and confidence with great shot stopping ability but they’re hard to come by. I guess I just wish we could clone Schmeichel or Van Der Sar
This is a poor attempt at justifying extremely sub-optimal positioning. No one is claiming that he was primarily at fault, should have saved it or that he had a high probability of saving it, but that doesn't excuse what transpired. Going by that logic, if a player is likely to score a 1v1 (which they usually are), would it be acceptable for the keeper to stand by his post and concede 95% of the goal to the attacker? After all, said attacker is likely to score, so what the keeper does is of little concern, correct? Of course not, that would be ridiculous.
Exactly. The fact that people have to reiterate this is mind-boggling. For example, McTominay is never going to catch Salah, but that doesn't mean he should abandon his duty of attempting to track back. Imagine if he just stood at the half-way line and went, "Right, can't be bothered. He's quicker than me anyway."
Nothing about this goal was quick. Salah was on the ball for almost six seconds before he shot. His run began in his own half. Rarely is a scorer on the ball for this long & over this amount of space.
The play until the shot had massive build up. It was only one person, certainly, but it was almost six seconds after Salah received the pass.
Yh I get the idea behind it, I just think it's super easy to criticise but in reality it's something that happened in the blink of any eye. The life of a keeper i guess.We're not demanding a super human feat from him here. We're saying that between this point:
And this point:
He should have physically moved forward. If that's beyond him then we really are in trouble because it's a pretty basic ask from a goalkeeper. I mean the incoming defender managed to close the space in those "milliseconds". Expecting Henderson to budge forward a few yards is hardly being hyper-critical.
1) Actually in situations like that, coming out too early has usually been a negative for Henderson, rather than a positive.
If you want to defend Henderson it should be on the basis that he at least tried to correct previous errors by initially staying deep, only to then make the mistake of not adjusting when the situation changed.
2) No, if the goalkeeper is in the correct position then it isn't a chance that gets scored 9/10 times (assuming you mean that literally). Obviously not. There are very few chances that have a 90% chance of being converted. It's a 1v1, not an open goal.
3) It was no more quick then loads of other situations you expect a goalkeeper to make correct decisions in. Which is partly how so many goalkeepers in that situation don't make it that easy for the striker to score. If that's not enough time for him to physically move his body then he really is fecked, because whole swathes of basic goalkeeping will be beyond him. And even if he was stuck in place like a bollard, he could still have been more central.
You're responding like criticising him for the fourth goal is nit-picking some obscure positional error. Whereas in reality it's a glaring mistake on his part that saw him roundly criticised by those watching/reporting on the game (see all the below, for example).
There are far more examples of journalists/pundits pointing out his mistake than I can actually include in one post. Because even without getting into in-depth analysis, it's really obvious. You literally just have to look at where he was and compare it to any of the thousand of times you've seen goalkeepers in similar situations.
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So he was criticised because he came out to close the gaps in one vs one situation vs Istanbul and he is still to blamed for not closing the gaps in one vs one situation vs Liverpool.
Come on mate.There are lot of different 1v1 situation, not every 1v1 situation is the same just because it's called 1v1. The Liverpool 4th was goal was basically 9/10 scenario.
For instance, the Jota 1v1 yesterday before their first that Dean saved actually was below 9/10 situation even if Dean didn't come out to close the gaps. And if you are wondering what the difference is. The difference is that Salah had so much time & space to think so whether Dean closing the gaps or no it won't make it any difference to lower that 9/10 chance, whether Dean adjusted his position to centrally and left the near post more open, it won't make it the difference as well. You need to be a terrible finisher or be called missing a shitter to miss that, which can happen, thus why that 1v1 situation is 9/10 not 10/10.
On the other hand, Jota had less time and space to think so Dean closing the gaps or being positioning well could make big difference in that Jota 1v1 situation.
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So he's criticised because he came out to close the gaps in one vs one situation vs Istanbul and he is still to blamed for not closing the gaps in one vs one situation vs Liverpool.
There are lot of different 1v1 situation, not every 1v1 situation is the same just because it's called 1v1. The Liverpool 4th was goal was basically 9/10 scenario.
For instance, the Jota 1v1 yesterday before their first that Dean saved actually was below 9/10 situation even if Dean didn't come out to close the gaps. And if you are wondering what the difference is. The difference is that Salah had so much time & space to think so whether Dean closing the gaps or no it won't make it any difference, whether Dean adjusted his position to centrally and left the near post more open, it won't make it any difference, you need to be a terrible finisher and be called missing a shitter to miss that.
On the other hand, Jota had less time and space to think so Dean closing the gaps or being well positioned well could make big difference in that situation.
Yes, obviously. If you come out at the wrong time and stay back at the wrong time you will be criticised for both. Do you think the right decision to make is separate to what is actually happening in front of him? The idea that that a goalkeeper should adjust his position as the situation changes isn't witchcraft, it's how positioning works. You don't just decide where you're going to be and stay there until either a goal is scored or the ball hits you.
Again, this wasn't a 9/10 scenario. At all. If you put striker in that situation they will literally not score 9/10 times if the goalkeeper is in the right place. You're massively overestimating how good strikers are at converting chances. Even on actual penalties only around 75% are scored.
We have to agree and disagree here because to me not to be called 9/10 has to be something like that came from direct through ball or a 1v1 that has very little time to think. Salah had so much time and space to think what to do before he entered the penalty, it was really a tricky situation for a keeper. It's not something people should overreact or overcritical about it.
Promoting youth and having English core is something on which is our club proud and is part of our tradition. And there is no fan in the world, no matter is he born 10 km or 1000 km from OT, who doesn't like that and who is not proud to see one Greenwood or Rashy in team. But when it goes to being nepotism and trying to do something "on force" then it becomes a complete farce.
Everything about Henderson screams average and he should not be no1 gk. Is Dave no1 future gk? We can argue about it. But Henderson isn't. And he will not become that just by "getting one full season" as no1.
He is good enough for being no2. If not, sell.
Everything about Henderson screams average and he should not be no1 gk. Is Dave no1 future gk? We can argue about it. But Henderson isn't. And he will not become that just by "getting one full season" as no1.
He is good enough for being no2. If not, sell.
I think you’re both right, Henderson was really poor there but no point being overly critical as Salah probably scores no matter what.
He's average, but so was DeGea when he came in from Atletico.
Jury still out on him.
Jury still out on him.
Consistently? He’s barely put a foot wrong besides the Liverpool game…give him a chance!
It's not his current level that's the problem. It's that he hasn't shown any evidence of having the tools to ever be a top level keeper.
To be an elite shot stopper (like De Gea is/was) you have to have incredible reflexes. Henderson doesn't. To dominate aerially and be top class at marshalling the defence (like van der Sar was) you have to be a bigger than average keeper. Henderson isn't.
I'm struggling to think of any top keeper over the last 20-odd years that doesn't fit into one, or sometimes both, of those categories.
Their is plenty of evidence in this discussion, see sullydnl about his mistakes, in the last month he has been poor was very shaky, I think he gets a lot of slack being the next big English Keeper, but is he better than Pickford or Pope. I prefer Pope as a shot stopper he I also imposing and does not get easily boxed in on crosses. Being Irish don't really care about representing his country but think he is third choice and won't be first his greatest strength is his speed, and yet his closing and positioning have been shown to be poor.
The jury is definitely still out on him but the comparison with De Gea's first season doesn't really work. De Gea was a 20 year old, had more natural talent and had the excuse of being new to the country and league. Henderson is 24, has less obvious natural talent, has lived in England his whole life and already has a full season of PL football under his belt.
The expectation is that Henderson should be better than De Gea was when he arrived, because Henderson doesn't have those mitigating factors to suggest the same scale of potential improvement ahead.
I agree, but to me it's still early. The only question is should United risk it and keep him as no1?
Some had Lindegaard as being the better of the 2 when Dave started his United career. I never could see where he was better. But I can see Henderson makes our defence look a more solid unit. He’s not as good a shot stopper, but certainly commands his area And I’d say has better distribution. I don’t see Dave being here next season.
Rumour is DeGea for Oblak if that’s the case then you would think he’s back to being number 2.
That would be quite the trade.
Jesus, Oblak is only 28, feels like he's been around for ages now.
Not this again
He definitely made mistakes, especially his first two games, but also made some absolutely standout saves, coming into a new league and team at age 20. The volley from RvP, the first 2 vs Stoke, the 1v1 vs Basel, the reflexes vs Kuyt all showed what he could do.
I'm not convinced with Henderson, he's had bad games this season - Istanbul, Milan, one of the other ones around the same time as Milan, and now Liverpool - without consistently producing moments like DDG did in his first season.
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nice reminder.
loved the British pronunciation of David at the beginning. That drag back, and is that one of only 2 or 3 pen saves?
Dave was not average when he came here. He showed actual talent already in first season (with being only 20 years old). Not invisible one like "organises defence".
DDG arrived with a bit of a higher pedigree than average.
I think the solidity gets provides the back four is the tipping point for him.
But there’s not much daylight between the two of them at all, if any.
David was significantly better than average when he arrived.
you're agreeing with me, right?
DDG was exactly what you expected from an incredibly talented young keeper. Moments of brilliance, peppered with some mistakes and a tendency to get bullied at set pieces.
With Henderson, there’s nothing that stands out with him. That doesn’t mean he won’t improve all aspects of his game and become a good keeper.
he may become our no 1, but I have no doubt he will never be a world class keeper.
Yep. DDG was a very good keeper when he arrived, a bit unpolished, no doubt, but not average.
I also don’t think Henderson will achieve DDG heights, but his current floor is a bit higher than David’s & he offers intangibles that David doesn’t.
There’s very little daylight between the two currently, it’s more a matter of preference & how each elevates the team.
I agree. Henderson won’t hit the heights that DDG did, not even close. But he does bring different qualities to the table and we have to compare Henderson and DDG as they are now.
I don’t know the answer, and I haven’t all season. I don’t think either are the long term answer.
Agree on the long term question.
If we keep insisting on always playing out of the back, Henderson offers a bit more in that department.
We already like to put square pegs into round holes outfield, we shouldn’t do it in goal.
Don't mean this as a negative by any means but he's very much like a young Joe Hart. Certainly many good attributes about him but still needs to iron out aspects.
He is a number 2 if I have ever seen one, has his moments but we cannot rely on him week in, week out. Just bang average really.
He rushes out and Salah probably repeats this
Probably placed doubt in his mind, which is understandable. Looks like he’s damned if he does or doesn’t by a lot of posters on here...
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