Great choice 
Dead Drafters Society
- Thread starter Šjor Bepo
- Start date
El Cholo time
Can recommend to keep an eye on Wimmer (although I don't remember that particular performance) - a player that receives way too little attention in general.
Oh, I love this game and that German side
anyone watching it tonight?
Will try to watch it tonight. With my tissues ready since someone will probably take Kaiser right after.
I would.
This German team is pure class.
All done, will post up in a bit.
A few thoughts:
- Impressed by West Germany's fluidity in moving players both horizontally and vertically. They were quite comfortable operating with any of their back four alternating across the defensive line. But more importantly every time they overloaded, usually Beckenbauer moving forward or Muller dropping deep, they could play their way into attacking positions quite easily. While England looked like three disjointed defence/midfield/attack units, that fluidity and synergy in West Germany's shape really enhanced their midfield where Netzer was pure class, Wimmer purposeful, quick and energetic, Hoeness mobile and able to create space.
- England sorely lacked a central midfielder with natural defensive instincts in there. They gifted Netzer so much space. The English midfielders had enough legs to press the first ball, but there was little in the way of defensive positioning or collective organisation in there. It was criminal that Ramsay didn't choose Mullery, who later said:
- England lacked much patterned build up - it was all back-to-front and play off the two target men up top. Seemed a waste of a fairly talented midfield unit.
- After all my criticism of the majority of the team, England's full-backs grew into the game particularly in the second half when they were able to push on. Madeley was class and you can see why @Edgar Allan Pillow always picks Crazy Horse. His half-volley on his left foot was perhaps the tastiest exemplar of technique of the whole game, aside from Netzer and Beckenbauer's outside-of-the-boot sprayed passes.
- The Banks/Moore axis that had served England so well in 1966 and 1970 was starting to creak. Moore's legs were no longer as quick as his mind (not that he was ever swift) and he was at fault for two goals. And I thought Banks should have done better with Netzer's penalty - it reminded me of the inagile way another English keeper tried to stop spot-kicks in the next shootout between the sides 18 years later. Muller's finish for the third though was just the pure instinct of a thoroughbred goalscorer.
- One of these seminal once-in-a-generation beatings England take where they are outdone by fluidity between the lines. You'd think the lessons would be learned.
Pretty much agree with @Gio on everything.
Germany so impressive, though for that generation thats nothing new as they were like that whenever i watched. Defensive Total Football they played, so many changing of positions in a game that i think Ramsay was pulling his hair all game cause the england 4 in midfield were never where he probably wanted them.
I thought england did well, against a much better team and they were in the game until the end, even put them on a lot of pressure for good periods of time. Pretty basic style compared to the germans, id say classic england but it worked to a certain point. They were getting up to a final third and then they missed someone like Charlton to help them make another step.
Thought Wimmer, Hoeness and Ball were very good, all three the type of players that never get the credit in drafts(they dont get picked, Wimmer had few cameos few years ago) but all three were crucial to their teams success and gave a great support to the star players.
Sepp Maier had a monster game apart from a period of a few minutes where he was at fault for the goal and made a mess of one cross, though i reckon he picked up 20 of others in the whole game.
Similar story with Norman Hunter, dominated the whole game in a proper stopper fashion but was partly at fault for the third goal.
Netzer on the other hand was unstoppable with his runs from deep, even when he didnt have space he just bulldozed through players. Passing was a bit meh though, at least through the goggles of a elite playmaker, a bit too much hit and miss for my liking.
Player of the week: Der Kaiser
No surprise there, im yet to watch a game where this alien was not a MOTM. Absolute joke of a player, never seen anyone that plays the game with such an ease at the highest level. Had few shaky moments while defending as did the whole defence who btw played great as a whole, lead obviously by Kaiser but the impact he has on the team in possession is ridiculous. In a draft game if you had a possession team and you had Moore/Ferdinand or who ever that was a great player and great on the ball you would pretty much equalize the impact on a game but the difference from Kaiser to them is night and day. Ones are from planet earth while other is from another galaxy.
Wanker of the week: Bobby Moore
Stones for the first goal, Otamendi for the second goal. Other then that was decent, mostly played long balls(pretty accurate) but reckon thats more through instructions then anything else.
Germany so impressive, though for that generation thats nothing new as they were like that whenever i watched. Defensive Total Football they played, so many changing of positions in a game that i think Ramsay was pulling his hair all game cause the england 4 in midfield were never where he probably wanted them.
I thought england did well, against a much better team and they were in the game until the end, even put them on a lot of pressure for good periods of time. Pretty basic style compared to the germans, id say classic england but it worked to a certain point. They were getting up to a final third and then they missed someone like Charlton to help them make another step.
Thought Wimmer, Hoeness and Ball were very good, all three the type of players that never get the credit in drafts(they dont get picked, Wimmer had few cameos few years ago) but all three were crucial to their teams success and gave a great support to the star players.
Sepp Maier had a monster game apart from a period of a few minutes where he was at fault for the goal and made a mess of one cross, though i reckon he picked up 20 of others in the whole game.
Similar story with Norman Hunter, dominated the whole game in a proper stopper fashion but was partly at fault for the third goal.
Netzer on the other hand was unstoppable with his runs from deep, even when he didnt have space he just bulldozed through players. Passing was a bit meh though, at least through the goggles of a elite playmaker, a bit too much hit and miss for my liking.
Player of the week: Der Kaiser
No surprise there, im yet to watch a game where this alien was not a MOTM. Absolute joke of a player, never seen anyone that plays the game with such an ease at the highest level. Had few shaky moments while defending as did the whole defence who btw played great as a whole, lead obviously by Kaiser but the impact he has on the team in possession is ridiculous. In a draft game if you had a possession team and you had Moore/Ferdinand or who ever that was a great player and great on the ball you would pretty much equalize the impact on a game but the difference from Kaiser to them is night and day. Ones are from planet earth while other is from another galaxy.
Wanker of the week: Bobby Moore
Stones for the first goal, Otamendi for the second goal. Other then that was decent, mostly played long balls(pretty accurate) but reckon thats more through instructions then anything else.
A few thoughts:
- Impressed by West Germany's fluidity in moving players both horizontally and vertically. They were quite comfortable operating with any of their back four alternating across the defensive line. But more importantly every time they overloaded, usually Beckenbauer moving forward or Muller dropping deep, they could play their way into attacking positions quite easily. While England looked like three disjointed defence/midfield/attack units, that fluidity and synergy in West Germany's shape really enhanced their midfield where Netzer was pure class, Wimmer purposeful, quick and energetic, Hoeness mobile and able to create space.
- England sorely lacked a central midfielder with natural defensive instincts in there. They gifted Netzer so much space. The English midfielders had enough legs to press the first ball, but there was little in the way of defensive positioning or collective organisation in there. It was criminal that Ramsay didn't choose Mullery, who later said:
- England lacked much patterned build up - it was all back-to-front and play off the two target men up top. Seemed a waste of a fairly talented midfield unit.
- After all my criticism of the majority of the team, England's full-backs grew into the game particularly in the second half when they were able to push on. Madeley was class and you can see why @Edgar Allan Pillow always picks Crazy Horse. His half-volley on his left foot was perhaps the tastiest exemplar of technique of the whole game, aside from Netzer and Beckenbauer's outside-of-the-boot sprayed passes.
- The Banks/Moore axis that had served England so well in 1966 and 1970 was starting to creak. Moore's legs were no longer as quick as his mind (not that he was ever swift) and he was at fault for two goals. And I thought Banks should have done better with Netzer's penalty - it reminded me of the inagile way another English keeper tried to stop spot-kicks in the next shootout between the sides 18 years later. Muller's finish for the third though was just the pure instinct of a thoroughbred goalscorer.
- One of these seminal once-in-a-generation beatings England take where they are outdone by fluidity between the lines. You'd think the lessons would be learned.
Agreed with that, good review.
It's striking how much better the football played by West Germany usually was in the '70s was than their '80s teams. Especially the 80-86 period where despite the great names and results on paper that really solidified their position as one of the long term football powerhouse nations, they often played a monotonous grinding football that was less than the sum of the parts imo.
Awesome match. Haven't rewatched it yet (and have failed dismally with this great idea in general) but will do so soon. Abiding memories are mostly Netzer being sensational and Beckenbauer being Beckenbauer, but will add more when I watch it again.
Yeah, I think that was visible. Moore's long balls were still ace though, for example before Hughes hit the crossbar.
I think that's rather typical for that era - the same was true for other great players like Overath & Breitner in many games I saw. Even Beckenbauer sometimes, although very rarely. But a certain untidiness & easy turnovers seem to have been a constant feature in these times, and I've rarely seen teammates complain when it happened.
BUT - here it seems to have rained earlier, and the commentator mentioned a slippy pitch more than once. I guess in combination with things like average pitch conditions, equipment, etc., this mitigates that point somewhat.
Matches with my general impression of Maier: extremely proactive & brave, and usually effective at controlling his box, but he also made quite a few blunders overall. Not sure how much I'd blame him for the goal, though.
Yep, yep, yep. Although peak Moore was an absolute sensation among the earthlings imo, even more so when keeping in mind the point of time at which he did it.
Eng depended on long passes lot more than Germany. Hughes, Moore, Madeley...lovey passes. Hughes left foot is a delight. Connected with most passes too and quick to spring the counter.
Muller's deep influence is quite good too.
Netzer had a good workrate and good speed too. His run about 50 mins in leading to Muller near miss is phenomenal. Picked up the ball close to his own goal, ran all to the other side and made a quick pass to Muller just outside of Eng box. Awesome sauce. Didn't rally seem him pulling midfield string with passing.
Was that Moore in fault for misplaced pass that led to the goal?
Most underrated player was Schwarzenbeck. He was everywhere, covering for both fullbacks out wide and even ventured ahead more than I realized. No wonder he was good between Kaizer and Breitner. Very impressive.
Muller's deep influence is quite good too.
Netzer had a good workrate and good speed too. His run about 50 mins in leading to Muller near miss is phenomenal. Picked up the ball close to his own goal, ran all to the other side and made a quick pass to Muller just outside of Eng box. Awesome sauce. Didn't rally seem him pulling midfield string with passing.
Was that Moore in fault for misplaced pass that led to the goal?
Most underrated player was Schwarzenbeck. He was everywhere, covering for both fullbacks out wide and even ventured ahead more than I realized. No wonder he was good between Kaizer and Breitner. Very impressive.
True(and pitches play a big part, though it didnt bother Kaiser
)but you still had someone like Gerson in same era that was neat and tidy. Nothing wrong with Netzer btw but id just prefer him in more direct setups rather then possession ones if we talk draft scenarios with goats right, left and center.
Edgar mentioned schwarzenbeck but id also add Hottges, guy was everywhere and whenever i watched Seeler for germany he was playing behind him and was always quietly impressive.
Absolutely. Him and Schwarzenbeck were fabulous as a stopper pair there - as I remember, that dominance continued in the actual Euro tournament games.
The ridiculous thing is that Höttges only got into the team again because Berti Vogts had injury/fitness issues during that time. That's what you call having options.
Where's @Balu ?
More I watch the match, more I feel Schwarzenbeck is quite flexible. He can be played in a back 3 for example on either flank too.
For Bayern, he also took over buildup / made attacking runs surprisingly often (compared to his image). Of course Beckenbauer was the main man by far, but Schwarzenbeck wasn't just his ogre, like German football folklore has it. Maybe I do a compilation of on-the-ball scenes one day.
All these spoilers, I'm going to watch this tomorrow.
England's back five was pretty good- Madeley and Hughes got forward well and Hunter was a much tidier player than I remember. Moore's passing was accurate and I thought the got a bit of the ball for the penalty. England's midfield were more none existent than Utd's under late Fergie. Geoff Hurst seemed to provide inspiration for Alan Shearer's England performances - supposed to be CF, ends up right wing most of the game. Francis Lee had a couple of good moments. Overall it was a classic, disjointed England performance.
Germany were seriously fluid. Breitner switching flanks because he could was entertaining. Wimmer ran more than Kante and he is also a decent dribbler. Kaiser is one smooth operated and Muller is lethal. Netzer was a bit wayward with some of his passing but dribbled well and made som good passes.
@Gio How do you think Mullery would have faired on Netzer? Given your quote it seems like Mullery wanted to try a man marking job but given how deep Netzer was at times (he is clearly not a 10) I don't see how that would have worked.
Germany were seriously fluid. Breitner switching flanks because he could was entertaining. Wimmer ran more than Kante and he is also a decent dribbler. Kaiser is one smooth operated and Muller is lethal. Netzer was a bit wayward with some of his passing but dribbled well and made som good passes.
@Gio How do you think Mullery would have faired on Netzer? Given your quote it seems like Mullery wanted to try a man marking job but given how deep Netzer was at times (he is clearly not a 10) I don't see how that would have worked.
Whose picking the next game?
I’ll pick in some time.. There are a couple of games in my mind
Catching up with the games.. @Šjor Bepo agree with your analysis of Celtic v Penerol. How good was Gemmell ..Goncalves very classy although aged 30 by that stage and legs weren’t quite what they used to be so relying on passing game.
Spencer really caught my eye though - he’s a perfect striker for the modern game, drifts out wide, links up play, nimble and dangerous.
..Goncalves very classy although aged 30 by that stage and legs weren’t quite what they used to be so relying on passing game.Spencer really caught my eye though - he’s a perfect striker for the modern game, drifts out wide, links up play, nimble and dangerous.
Matchweek 4
I always enjoy games with a bit of drama and a good underdog story.. Had a couple of other matches in mind but this one should do
Netherlands vs. Denmark - Euro 1992 Semi Finals
https://footballia.net/matches/netherlands-denmark
Netherlands vs. Denmark - Euro 1992 Semi Finals
https://footballia.net/matches/netherlands-denmark
Another good call, plenty of drama in this one.
Was thinking a bit more about that, and I'd say it depends a lot on circumstances & matchups.
Schwarzenbeck is among those defenders from the man-marking era (both stopper & sweeper specialists) who may not translate into the zonal defense era quite as well. Not being the most mobile defender, man-marking allowed him to (mostly) choose his opponent, like concentrating on the opposition #9 (Chivers in our last DDS game). In a zonal defense, the opposition can to an extent choose who attacks his zone, and rapid, hyper-mobile attackers coming from movement may be a problem.
So if he plays in a modern zonal back 3 or back 4, I'd say the best bet would be a deep one with a packed defensive third. Wouldn't trust him quite as much in a more open setup. Just my thoughts, though.
id rather watch Koeman defend then peak Dinho
And me
so we finally know who invited Zlatan, nobody.
Proper festival of football indy 120 minutes of good competitive football, penalties and Denmark winning. You cant ask for much more.
Disappointed with Holland tbh, very poor performance considering the gulf in individual quality between the teams but more about that later.
Regarding player performances:
F. De Boer partly at fault for the first goal though the whole defending from the team was comical. Two players going to block a cross from Laudrup, second centerback in neverland, Bergkamp out of all people "marking" second post and gk doing his best Mazurkidurkadurka impression.
Koeman was pretty good actually. As we all know his passing is top notch and tbf denmark lack of technical players(specially after Laudrup left the pitch) made it a bit easier for him. Had one comical piece of defending and while not entirely his fault for second half its a situation where you separate truly great defenders from the ones that are not. He reacted on a reflex which is funny as he has one of a dead cat but top tier defenders either leave that ball to a keeper or just make a better clearance.
Bergkamp was classy in first half, later pretty weak. Roy was the worst player on the pitch, though he is a winger what can you expect. @Physiocrat
Van Basten probably the worst i ever saw him play, missed a penalty as well but feck me even when is having a mare he is impressive! Few great flicks, produced best play of the game(alongside that block from Piechnik) with a genius pass for Gullit who missed. But dont get me wrong, he was very poor.
Thought Laudrup was fantastic, everything went through him and his workrate was impressive. Had him for a prime candidate for a player of the week but then he got injured fairly early in the game.
After that thought denmark leftback is impressive, Henrik Andersen. Not only had he Ruud Gullit(also gave us the worst throw in ever and was wank the whole game) in his pocket the whole game but he also contributed fairly on the other hand being by overlapping or by carrying the ball. Obviously i cursed him as well as he got injured around the 70 minute.
Number 7 was also fantastic for denmark, Jensen. Not the flashiest on the ball but solid enough while also giving a proper warrior performance, guy never stopped for 120 minutes.
Schmeichel similar to Maier from last week, hugely impressive performance but could have done better for the goal. Dominant in the box entire time, great throws, few great saves and obviously saved a penalty in the shoutout. Ohh and not to forget a heroic block from Piechnik in ET, match winning block
Person of the week: Moller Nielsen
Changing it from player this week. Your star player fecks up a goal, you lose your best player to injury, you lose your second best player on the day to injury and you still manage to win the game against much better opposition. Not only that, its how you win it! Absolutely amazing side, well drilled, played great as a team and was a joy to watch. Not to mention him and his staff produced the best moment of the game with a proper fiesta on the bench during the game, everybody drinking beer and think one guy even smoked a pipe!
Wanker of the week: Rinus Michels
From best football ever in 74' to doing a homage to Big Sam with a GOAT stacked team.
120 minutes of good competitive football, penalties and Denmark winning. You cant ask for much more.Disappointed with Holland tbh, very poor performance considering the gulf in individual quality between the teams but more about that later.
Regarding player performances:
F. De Boer partly at fault for the first goal though the whole defending from the team was comical. Two players going to block a cross from Laudrup, second centerback in neverland, Bergkamp out of all people "marking" second post and gk doing his best Mazurkidurkadurka impression.
Koeman was pretty good actually. As we all know his passing is top notch and tbf denmark lack of technical players(specially after Laudrup left the pitch) made it a bit easier for him. Had one comical piece of defending and while not entirely his fault for second half its a situation where you separate truly great defenders from the ones that are not. He reacted on a reflex which is funny as he has one of a dead cat but top tier defenders either leave that ball to a keeper or just make a better clearance.
Bergkamp was classy in first half, later pretty weak. Roy was the worst player on the pitch, though he is a winger what can you expect. @Physiocrat
Van Basten probably the worst i ever saw him play, missed a penalty as well but feck me even when is having a mare he is impressive! Few great flicks, produced best play of the game(alongside that block from Piechnik) with a genius pass for Gullit who missed. But dont get me wrong, he was very poor.
Thought Laudrup was fantastic, everything went through him and his workrate was impressive. Had him for a prime candidate for a player of the week but then he got injured fairly early in the game.
After that thought denmark leftback is impressive, Henrik Andersen. Not only had he Ruud Gullit(also gave us the worst throw in ever and was wank the whole game) in his pocket the whole game but he also contributed fairly on the other hand being by overlapping or by carrying the ball. Obviously i cursed him as well as he got injured around the 70 minute.
Number 7 was also fantastic for denmark, Jensen. Not the flashiest on the ball but solid enough while also giving a proper warrior performance, guy never stopped for 120 minutes.
Schmeichel similar to Maier from last week, hugely impressive performance but could have done better for the goal. Dominant in the box entire time, great throws, few great saves and obviously saved a penalty in the shoutout. Ohh and not to forget a heroic block from Piechnik in ET, match winning block
Person of the week: Moller Nielsen
Changing it from player this week. Your star player fecks up a goal, you lose your best player to injury, you lose your second best player on the day to injury and you still manage to win the game against much better opposition. Not only that, its how you win it! Absolutely amazing side, well drilled, played great as a team and was a joy to watch. Not to mention him and his staff produced the best moment of the game with a proper fiesta on the bench during the game, everybody drinking beer and think one guy even smoked a pipe!
Wanker of the week: Rinus Michels
From best football ever in 74' to doing a homage to Big Sam with a GOAT stacked team.
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Proper festival of football indy
Disappointed with Holland tbh, very poor performance considering the gulf in individual quality between the teams but more about that later.
Regarding player performances:
F. De Boer partly at fault for the first goal though the whole defending from the team was comical. Two players going to block a cross from Laudrup, second centerback in neverland, Bergkamp out of all people "marking" second post and gk doing his best Mazurkidurkadurka impression.
Koeman was pretty good actually. As we all know his passing is top notch and tbf denmark lack of technical players(specially after Laudrup left the pitch) made it a bit easier for him. Had one comical piece of defending and while not entirely his fault for second half its a situation where you separate truly great defenders from the ones that are not. He reacted on a reflex which is funny as he has one of a dead cat but top tier defenders either leave that ball to a keeper or just make a better clearance.
Bergkamp was classy in first half, later pretty weak. Roy was the worst player on the pitch, though he is a winger what can you expect. @Physiocrat
Van Basten probably the worst i ever saw him play, missed a penalty as well but feck me even when is having a mare he is impressive! Few great flicks, produced best play of the game(alongside that block from Piechnik) with a genius pass for Gullit who missed. But dont get me wrong, he was very poor.
Thought Laudrup was fantastic, everything went through him and his workrate was impressive. Had him for a prime candidate for a player of the week but then he got injured fairly early in the game.
After that thought denmark leftback is impressive, Henrik Andersen. Not only had he Ruud Gullit(also gave us the worst throw in ever and was wank the whole game) in his pocket the whole game but he also contributed fairly on the other hand being by overlapping or by carrying the ball. Obviously i cursed him as well as he got injured around the 70 minute.
Number 7 was also fantastic for denmark, Jensen. Not the flashiest on the ball but solid enough while also giving a proper warrior performance, guy never stopped for 120 minutes.
Schmeichel similar to Maier from last week, hugely impressive performance but could have done better for the goal. Dominant in the box entire time, great throws, few great saves and obviously saved a penalty in the shoutout. Ohh and not to forget a heroic block from Piechnik in ET, match winning block
Person of the week: Moller Nielsen
Changing it from player this week. Your star player fecks up a goal, you lose your best player to injury, you lose your second best player on the day to injury and you still manage to win the game against much better opposition. Not only that, its how you win it! Absolutely amazing side, well drilled, played great as a team and was a joy to watch. Not to mention him and his staff produced the best moment of the game with a proper fiesta on the bench during the game, everybody drinking beer and think one guy even smoked a pipe!
Wanker of the week: Rinus Michels
From best football ever in 74' to doing a homage to Big Sam with a GOAT stacked team.
Cheers.. I loved how well Denmark defended for the first 90 minutes.. As you pointed out Henrik Andersen was brilliant until he got injured.. Incidentally, the injury kept him out for 11 months and then he made just one more appearance for Denmark
Both Gullit and Van Basten were kept relatively quiet by the Danish defense.. Roy arguably the worst player and missed a sitter in extra time.. Rijkaard was rarely the midfield defensive player that we see in drafts.. He was more B2B and had a couple of decent attempts on goal..
Overall i felt the Dutch underestimated how good Denmark (particularly Laudrup, Andersen, Schmeichel, Jansen, and even Larsen who didn't really do that well in club career) could be.. They had a system in place which everyone understood.. Having said that they hung on a bit and rode their luck during extra time..
Haven't watched the game yet but Holland were very good in the group stages outclassing Germany in particular. Probably not dissimilar to 2008 when they 'peaked too early' and ran out of steam when it mattered.
In my boredom trawling all the sub sections of the site, I've stumbled across this thread. It's great!
Two thumbs up!
Two thumbs up!