DDG: Over 400 apps for our club. Legend status! Was he the best we've had? Shoot!

colombianmancunian said:
For me he is a club legend, I will be forever grateful for his service, and I hope he does well wherever he goes.

But as good as his peak was, for me he is behind Pete and Edwin. They both were more complete keepers and had a higher trophy tally. Although in Dave’s defense, he didn’t have the defenders the other two had.
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I think it's symbiotic to some degree. A good defence improves with a commanding presence behind them. As good a shot stopper DDG is/was you would never describe him as commanding
 
De Gea's legend status is never a question in my mind, he was one of the few bright sparks in the five years after Sir Alex Ferguson retired, and I'm sure he'd have more trophies to his name if not for us losing the GOAT manager.

I probably rate van der Sar the highest for his presence and consistency, then Schmeichel (would've been 1st if he hadn't joined City), and then De Gea. De Gea was immense for us for a while amid all the changes the club was going through.
 
He shone brighter than his teammates, but not as bright as our brightest ever stars.

I can understand people forming an attachment to him over the last decade, because who else are our young fans going to idolise? But that doesn't mean that DDG is legend material.

To be a legend, not only do you have to be synonymous with the club, the club also has to be synonymous with you. So when I think of Manchester United, I immediately think of Best, Charlton, Beckham, Giggs, Scholes, Cantona etc.

De Gea doesn't get in that list. He's probably a couple of notches below, and there's no shame in that.
 
calodo2003 said:
This, but not much daylight between any of them.
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For me, not just daylight between them, more like whole universes/stratospheres. The first two were world class, DDG couldn't get into the Spain side: says it all. Not even in my top three United keepers in my time as a United fan. Far, far from a legend. Had some good, seasons but that's not enough for me (and neither is being player of the year)
 
Might be regarded as a legend but the best we ever had?

Not a chance. Both Schmeichel and VDS were better.
 
I can only think the people not having Schmeichel as the best didn't see him much.

He's so far and away our best ever keeper, it's not even close.

He's clearly a bit arrogant and I know a lot of reds who don't like him but you can't argue with how good he was. He was a special keeper and absolutely fecking crucial to us dominating the 90s.

As for De Gea from 2013-2018 he was brilliant and probably the best shot stopper we've ever had. However while it's right we remember how great he was at that time, we also can't forget how poor he was from 2019-2023. He had a terrible last 4 or 5 seasons and so he cannot possibly be our greatest.
 
The only area that DDG could be considered equal to VDS and Schmeichel would be pure shot-stopping, and unlike those other two, he had a major drop-off halfway through his United career. In terms of their all-round game, VDS and Schmeichel were much better.

However, I think its in terms of personality where he really falls behind the other two. Schmeichel was a big dog who was part of a group of egos who drove each other forward relentlessly in the 90s to incredible heights. VDS was a calming, organising influence who helped a relatively young team ahead of him mature quickly into a complete team. Even at his best, DDG was mostly interested in his own game and has never had the kind of influence on the defence or wider team that those guys had.
 
mitchmouse said:
For me, not just daylight between them, more like whole universes/stratospheres. The first two were world class, DDG couldn't get into the Spain side: says it all. Not even in my top three United keepers in my time as a United fan. Far, far from a legend. Had some good, seasons but that's not enough for me (and neither is being player of the year)
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Out of interest, which 3 from your time as a fan are above him

I think 2 are easy, but the third is a bit more debatable.

I go as far back as the start of the Stepney era, he is possible, Gary Bailey is also possible, shame Injury cut his career short, pretty sure he would have been undisputed top 3 otherwise, no one else since Stepney and Bailey is close to the to 3 in my opinion.
 
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JagUTD said:
If course it does.

Just compare the back 4 in front of Schmeichel and VdS over those De Gea had to work with.

The former two had the pleasure of working with some all time great United defenders and some that are all time great of the game itself. De Gea got the tail end of some all time great and then what basically amounted to a Benny Hill skit until last season.

It wasn't just about the individuals either and even those who came in when needed were of a higher quality than those starting as first teamers in front of De Gea.
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I'd say it goes both ways.

Schmeichel and VDS obviously had better defenders in front of them, but I think they also helped those defenders be as good as they possibly could be. They were more vocal and better organisers, plus they also came out and took the crosses and through-balls that they really should do. It helped the defenders be fully confident with the keeper behind them and know exactly what they had to do.

De Gea had worse defenders in front of him, but I also think that he often made them look worse than what they were. He was never much of a talker, he didn't dominate his box, he was outright terrible at dealing with crosses and sweeping, all of which just increased the pressure on the defenders around him and made it harder for them to do their job. Of course his shot-stopping used to be so ridiculously good that he would then save those increased amounts of shots. To borrow a phrase from The Dark Knight, De Gea was an agent of chaos.
 
Older fans a question where does he compare to Stepney or Gregg? Behind Big Pete and VDS surley.
 
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The defenders in front of them were less of a difference than the managers in the dugout.

Obviously in terms of achieving success, having SAF as your manager is a hell of an advantage versus the shower we had since. As evidenced by De Gea winning the league in one of two seasons he played under SAF and then never again.

Which doesn't mean having SAF as his manager for his entire time here would have suddenly made De Gea a better goalkeeper, but I think it's fair to say he would have been in better and more succesful teams, particularly in his peak years.

It's a big skewing factor in their career comparisons, as Schmeichel or VDS would have achieved a tiny fraction of what they did here under the likes of Ole, Moyes, or the past-it versions of LVG or Mourinho.
 
sullydnl said:
The defenders in front of them were less of a difference than the managers in the dugout.

Obviously in terms of achieving success, having SAF as your manager is a hell of an advantage versus the shower we had since. As evidenced by De Gea winning the league in one of two seasons he played under SAF and then never again.

Which doesn't mean having SAF as his manager for his entire time here would have suddenly made De Gea a better goalkeeper, but I think it's fair to say he would have been in better and more succesful teams, particularly in his peak years.

It's a big skewing factor in their career comparisons, as Schmeichel or VDS would have achieved a tiny fraction of what they did here under the likes of Ole, Moyes, or the past-it versions of LVG or Mourinho.
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I think having SAF as his manager would have forced him to improve his game, because the De Gea we’ve had since 2018 would have been shown the door a long time ago under SAF.

I think he ultimately got complacent because everything around him was on fire and all he had to do was keep making saves and no one asked any more of him. Under SAF you’d have expected him to become better with his feet and commanding his area because SAF would have demanded that from him.

Having a free ride for years has ultimately cost him his place at United now when we have a manager that is asking more of players. It’s a shame really because he definitely had the potential to be better than he was.
 
MadDogg said:
I'd say it goes both ways.

Schmeichel and VDS obviously had better defenders in front of them, but I think they also helped those defenders be as good as they possibly could be. They were more vocal and better organisers, plus they also came out and took the crosses and through-balls that they really should do. It helped the defenders be fully confident with the keeper behind them and know exactly what they had to do.

De Gea had worse defenders in front of him, but I also think that he often made them look worse than what they were. He was never much of a talker, he didn't dominate his box, he was outright terrible at dealing with crosses and sweeping, all of which just increased the pressure on the defenders around him and made it harder for them to do their job. Of course his shot-stopping used to be so ridiculously good that he would then save those increased amounts of shots. To borrow a phrase from The Dark Knight, De Gea was an agent of chaos.
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Of course it does. These people just don't understand the role of the keeper beyond making saves.

Schmeichel and VDS were key parts of those defensive units, they formed a back 5 unit that worked together and had shape and consistency. They talked, organised and knew each others game and knew where each other would and should be 90% of the time. Those defenders also knew if there was a ball to be claimed, the keeper would be there.

DDG was here 12 years, and multiple defensive partners and back 4s in front of him, and the one constant was the chaos and confusion. The defenders expect the keeper to come for a ball or sweep he's no where to be seen. Balls dropping in the 6 yard box, defenders don't know if he's coming or whether they need to deal with it, so they end up trying to mark men and look to see what the keeper is going to do. You just can't have that at any level.
 
Van der Sar reigns supreme for me followed by Schmeichel, but there isn't much between the latter and De Gea. Champions League aside let's not forget De Gea won the lot with us, too.
 
crossy1686 said:
I think having SAF as his manager would have forced him to improve his game, because the De Gea we’ve had since 2018 would have been shown the door a long time ago under SAF.

I think he ultimately got complacent because everything around him was on fire and all he had to do was keep making saves and no one asked any more of him. Under SAF you’d have expected him to become better with his feet and commanding his area because SAF would have demanded that from him.

Having a free ride for years has ultimately cost him his place at United now when we have a manager that is asking more of players. It’s a shame really because he definitely had the potential to be better than he was.
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This couldn't be further from the truth. He actually developed really well under most of his managers - even Moyes. LVG especially developed him really well - that's when he was at his actual best, because he was a capable sweeper and a great shot stopper in Louis' high line.

His shot stopping peaked under Mourinho, but he then regressed after the 2018 WC.

There's probably a few reasons for that - I don't think he got over the poor WC he had in 2018 after his career highlight club season. So mentally he probably wasn't the same keeper again. And I think his reaction times, then started to regress alongside that and that's why he declined in the years after. Smaller keepers like De Gea, Reina and Casillas all seem to fade early for that reason. The giants manage to last longer because they're not dependent on reaction time.

He didn't develop anything else in his game under Ole - but who did?
 
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DDG was an absolute beast for us, for 10 years he was actually the only consistent world class player we had, and the best GK in the World for probably 2 years at his absolute peak. Never have I watched games of VDS doing what DDG managed to pull for us. That does not mean that VDS was bad or anything other than an absolute legend, but DDG's peak I think was probably higher.
 
Skills said:
This couldn't be further from the truth. He actually developed really well under most of his managers - even Moyes. LVG especially developed him really well - that's when he was at his actual best, because he was a capable sweeper and a great shot stopper in Louis' high line.

His shot stopping peaked under Mourinho, but he then regressed after the 2018 WC.

There's probably a few reasons for that - I don't think he got over the poor WC he had in 2018 after his career highlight club season. So mentally he probably wasn't the same keeper again. And I think his reaction times, then started to regress alongside that and that's why he declined in the years after. Smaller keepers like De Gea, Reina and Casillas all seem to fade early for that reason. The giants manage to last longer because they're not dependent on reaction time.

He didn't develop anything else in his game under Ole - but who did?
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His performances, notably his shot stopping only ever improved when his first team spot was under threat from Romero or Henderson. His worst seasons all coincide with him having no competition, but I'm not referring to his shot stopping, I'm referencing his overall game that never improved past being a good shot stopper when he had the ability to be more than that if someone pushed him. When he first joined us his distribution was great and it seems that regressed because he never had a consistent manager to demand more from him.
 
sullydnl said:
The defenders in front of them were less of a difference than the managers in the dugout.

Obviously in terms of achieving success, having SAF as your manager is a hell of an advantage versus the shower we had since. As evidenced by De Gea winning the league in one of two seasons he played under SAF and then never again.

Which doesn't mean having SAF as his manager for his entire time here would have suddenly made De Gea a better goalkeeper, but I think it's fair to say he would have been in better and more succesful teams, particularly in his peak years.

It's a big skewing factor in their career comparisons, as Schmeichel or VDS would have achieved a tiny fraction of what they did here under the likes of Ole, Moyes, or the past-it versions of LVG or Mourinho.
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Sure, DdG may have had more success under SAF but only if he had kept improving. Otherwise he wouldn’t have lasted that long and no way 12 years. SAF tried a few goal keepers between Schmeichel and VdS after all, so DdG had no guarantee either.
There are tons of examples when SAF got rid of players who weren’t really old and who he actually liked.
Take Ruud for example who he liked so much that he even waited 1 year so Ruud could recover from his ACL injury and then he still bought him. Ruud performed amazingly for us and he still got rid when he was only 30.
Veron too, world class player, big/record signing, SAF defended him endlessly in public but only after 2 years he got rid. That was by the way the same summer Beckham was already leaving so SAF could have been reluctant to sell another midfielder in the same window. But no, he still sold him as well.
DdG after his disastrous 2011/12 season improved a lot for his 2nd season under SAF and still, he was dropped for a few games. So SAF wouldn’t have had too much patience with a DdG if he had failed to improve/adapt/expand his skill set.
 
Kostov said:
DDG was an absolute beast for us, for 10 years he was actually the only consistent world class player we had, and the best GK in the World for probably 2 years at his absolute peak. Never have I watched games of VDS doing what DDG managed to pull for us. That does not mean that VDS was bad or anything other than an absolute legend, but DDG's peak I think was probably higher.
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6 years.

He certainly wasn't world class in his first season, nor from 18/19 onwards. It was 'only' the six years between those seasons where he was right up there.
 
crossy1686 said:
I think having SAF as his manager would have forced him to improve his game, because the De Gea we’ve had since 2018 would have been shown the door a long time ago under SAF.

I think he ultimately got complacent because everything around him was on fire and all he had to do was keep making saves and no one asked any more of him. Under SAF you’d have expected him to become better with his feet and commanding his area because SAF would have demanded that from him.

Having a free ride for years has ultimately cost him his place at United now when we have a manager that is asking more of players. It’s a shame really because he definitely had the potential to be better than he was.
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This is spot on.

DDG was a bright spark and the only positive thing in our team for a couple of seasons, but DDG never hit the heights his talent was capable of.

He's somewhat a victim of how poorly we have been run this last decade, we keep players around for FAR too long. DDG under SAF just would not have lasted 12 years, he'd have been moved on in 2018 when he showed no signs of improvement and started to decline.

This is why we need to trust ETH, he is the only manager we have had with a vision and will back it up. Any manager we have, or had will be hindered by our owners and our board but ETH just gets it and has made the right call with DDG

Great player, great servant, time was up long ago. He goes with good wishes
 
crossy1686 said:
His performances, notably his shot stopping only ever improved when his first team spot was under threat from Romero or Henderson. His worst seasons all coincide with him having no competition, but I'm not referring to his shot stopping, I'm referencing his overall game that never improved past being a good shot stopper when he had the ability to be more than that if someone pushed him. When he first joined us his distribution was great and it seems that regressed because he never had a consistent manager to demand more from him.
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I'm really not sure how much his distribution actually regressed versus the standards expected of goalkeeper distribution having massively changed across his time here. In fact I suspect that in absolute terms his distribution is better now.

For example in his first two seasons here when his passing was supposedly "great", his pass completion (as per Whoscored) was 55% and 54% in the league. A Sky article also cited his first season pass completion as 56%. As opposed to this season, where it is 70.4% as per Whoscored. And that's a reflection of the type of passes he's expected to make having changed.

In other words back when his distribution looked better he was making fewer passes overall, fewer passes under pressure and was hitting long balls a much greater portion of the time. In his first season in terms of attempts Whoscored have him averaging 8.5 short passes and 19 long passes. As opposed to this season, when it's 15.5 short passes, 11.5 long.
 
Red For Ever said:
Out of interest, which 3 from your time as a fan are above him

I think 2 are easy, but the third is a bit more debatable.

I go as far back as the start of the Stepney era, he is possible, Gary Bailey is also possible, shame Injury cut his career short, pretty sure he would have been undisputed top 3 otherwise, no one else since Stepney and Bailey is close to the to 3 in my opinion.
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DDG certainly above Bailey, very similar start to Utd careers being weak on crosses and then getting better, but DDG far better shot stopper. Stepney and Bailey possibly get over looked as well in this debate due to both of them lacking international recognition. Both more than capable to keep for England, just they had probably the best in the world at the time in front of them. I could easily interchange Stepney and DDG in position 3 with Bailey 5 of what I've seen.

I will note that were it not for injuries I think Walsh could have worked his way up this ladder and possibly who knows may have led to us never having Schmrichel.
 
Red For Ever said:
Out of interest, which 3 from your time as a fan are above him

I think 2 are easy, but the third is a bit more debatable.

I go as far back as the start of the Stepney era, he is possible, Gary Bailey is also possible, shame Injury cut his career short, pretty sure he would have been undisputed top 3 otherwise, no one else since Stepney and Bailey is close to the to 3 in my opinion.
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Yes, Gary Bailey for me: lots of people point out that DDG didn't play when we were at our peak and his defenders were nowhere near as good as Peter S's and VdS's, well Bailey had much poorer and played at a time when keepers barely wore gloves, let alone the oven-mits of today and the pitches were nowhere near the quality. He made very few errors (I can only think of one prime one), was very brave and dominated the penalty area.

Stepney may also be worthy of consideration...
 
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