Could also be that there weren’t so many clubs who were interested to the point that they actually gave a proposal.
Dayot Upamecano | Signs for Bayern
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"City with their infinity terrorism money" what did you mean by that?
Including Leipzig. I suppose they tried extending his contract with a higher release clause and he declined the offer, or how did that go? (Apologies if this was covered in previous pages.)
I think with his reasonable release clause it's likely a number of clubs were interested and at 22 years of age his defensive errors could also be ironed out.
I didn't actually mean much, I ranted. I fixed it to the actual non-hyperbolic and more accurate description of oil money. Again, disclaimer: It's city, I don't care enough to research my prejudices against that club.
Interested yes, but to the extent that they were willing to pay the money in the current economic situation? I’m not so sure. He has talent, but it is not a safe card, especially not with the injuries. He will probably iron out some errors, like his poor decision making sometimes, but there are also things that are more difficult to iron out like he doesn’t seem to be very aware of what’s going on around him.
I think he will grow at Bayern and they probably made a good decision, but I’m just saying there are circumstances now that means the big clubs can’t just pay up big money for talents with risks.
No worries mate. I agreed with the rest of your post though and it illustrates how well you're run as a club and even our ex legendary manager Sir Alex Ferguson speaks highly of your clubs day to day running.I didn't actually mean much, I ranted. I fixed it to the actual non-hyperbolic and more accurate description of oil money. Again, disclaimer: It's city, I don't care enough to research my prejudices against that club.
I love German football. The Bundesliga is the second most entertaining league(in terms of football, not "stakes") in my opinion.
Having said that, it's both sad and hilarious to see German football supporters, both Bayern supporters and otherwise, try to play down the ridiculously over-powered position Bayern have in the league. They are on course to win their 9th(!) title in a row. It's no point comparing with the PL in terms of competitiveness so I'm just gonna jump straight to Spain, which the Germans seemingly like to bring up. Yes, Real and Barca are in a similar position. But there's a clue in that sentence, unless you missed it: there are two teams, not one. That immediately makes things a lot more interesting. It's not a monopoly like the Bundesliga is.
"But Hummels and Götze hardly made a difference". For you, yes. Sometimes when you "steal" top talent, the main motivator is not always to strengthen your own team but to severely weaken your opponent. I'm not saying that this was the main purpose, but it's not like you can fail. If they turn out good: perfect. If not: well at least your rival can't keep using them and need to look elsewhere, possibly wasting a ton of money.
Having said that, it's both sad and hilarious to see German football supporters, both Bayern supporters and otherwise, try to play down the ridiculously over-powered position Bayern have in the league. They are on course to win their 9th(!) title in a row. It's no point comparing with the PL in terms of competitiveness so I'm just gonna jump straight to Spain, which the Germans seemingly like to bring up. Yes, Real and Barca are in a similar position. But there's a clue in that sentence, unless you missed it: there are two teams, not one. That immediately makes things a lot more interesting. It's not a monopoly like the Bundesliga is.
"But Hummels and Götze hardly made a difference". For you, yes. Sometimes when you "steal" top talent, the main motivator is not always to strengthen your own team but to severely weaken your opponent. I'm not saying that this was the main purpose, but it's not like you can fail. If they turn out good: perfect. If not: well at least your rival can't keep using them and need to look elsewhere, possibly wasting a ton of money.
So what? Absolute nothing mate. All well and good and further up I’ve even stated that I understand the positives of joining Bayern - a tremendous club, a guarantee of 4/5 championships if not 5/5 + a realistic go at UCL. But the league’s excitement - IMO - suffers from the best players going to Bayern for peanuts - mostly.
The argument is not “a player should never go to a league rival” - that happens in every league, and can often be exciting. But it really does seem to be the case, that ever so often a dynasty or a title challenger in Germany emerges, a couple of their players go to Bayern, the project shatters a bit, some of the other players now leave too - maybe some even abroad, and the team is far from being a challenger again. I mean just look at different teams winning the Bundesliga per decade after the new millennium:
00’s = Wolfsburg, Stuttgart, Bremen, Dortmund and then Bayern (x6)
10’s = Just Dortmund (x2) and Bayern (x8).
20’s = well, just a season played, but Bayern took the title yet again, but I wouldn’t be surprised if FCB plain and simple just nail the whole damn decade. It’s both a compliment to Bayern, as well as a case of low expectations to the rest of the league.
When all is said and done - the Bundesliga is a strong league - the fans are just as passionate as they come, the pool of world class talents and promising managers is definitely not to be belittled. But as for excitement over the title, it’s been inexistent for some time now.
Edit: the United part I disagree with. Even if you ignore the times we’ve been rejected at the expense of Chelsea and City in recent time, we still didn’t manage to sign Shearer, he stayed at Newcastle. We couldn’t afford to pay Di Canio the wages he wanted - not a problem Bayern are having in the Bundesliga I’d imagine, Modric and Bale picked Madrid over us, Ramsey and Oxlade both chose Arsenal over us, according to Gerrard SAF tried numerous times to sign him but he just couldn’t play for us. I’m sure there are more examples - and all these were when United were at the very top. I agree - Chelsea and City have made it even more difficult, a problem Bayern doesn’t have yet. But to suggest that United in the 90’s and 00’s was able to get Premier League players like Lewandovski, Hummels, Goetze, Klose, Mario Gomez, Lúcio, Ballack and Ze Roberto (talk about deflating Leverkusen’s wonderful team quickly - actually impressive) from the other ->title-contending<- teams just like Bayern have done - well I struggle to recall that many players from title-rivalling clubs joining United those decades. You then add Neuer, a free Goretzka, a free Nubel, a free Rode etc. etc. times a few dozen more names I can’t be bothered to type. It goes on and on and this year even the Scottish league will have a new winner. I don’t see that happening in the Bundesliga for the foreseeable future. Especially not after this transfer of Upamecano - who I strongly believe will be a permanent starter the next many seasons - I hope for him all the best.
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How many Arsenal and Liverpool players did United sign between 1990 and 2004(Chelsea breaking into the scene)? Things have obviously changed a little over the years, but even now getting a Liverpool player is out of the question. The RVP signing was a shock to everyone, Fergie included. It's an outlier, honestly. Also, Arsenal was the 4th(?) best team in England at that stage and not really a rival anymore, so it doesn't really count.
Fair enough, but the rivalvry between soem teams in the PL is way bigger. Many clubs has been big rivals for a long time, not to mention that some of the biggest rivalries in the PL are between clubs from once city. The rivalry between Bayern/Leipzig for example is not as big. That is one of the reason why PL is more attractive and therefore ahead in TV money and the PL will be always more competetive and attractive for obvious reason. But so will Bayern always be the more attractive option in Germany for obvious reasons. I don't think you can blame the players and clubs too much to be fair.
Pl will always be ahead of other leagues , so will Bayern . The gap can't be closed longterm other than when some miracle happens.
If Upamecano has a clause which says he can't go to Bayern, then he goes to Liverpool and Bayern buys another top defender. Wouldn't change anything other than Bayern spending a bit more money for someone else. Leizig still lose their player. ITs not Bayern , it is also PL buying all the top Bundesliga players. Son, Keita, Werner, Havertz, Gündogan, Leno, De Bruyne, Mertesacker, Kompany, Dzeko, Kagawa, Podolski, Mykhitarian. A clause not to sell players to the PL would help more I believe !
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Is anyone actually surprised?
Every club in Germany are feeder clubs for BM. It makes it a boring and predictable league!
Every club in Germany are feeder clubs for BM. It makes it a boring and predictable league!
Another playing choosing the money rather than showing some ambition. Probably not good enough for us anyway. Let’s get Kounde.
Upamecano going to Bayern was done in around November I believe.
Not the right option for United anyway.
Not the right option for United anyway.
The poster specifically quoted Arsenal and Chelsea transfers. None of them were high profile and they were mostly for players that were washed up at their respective clubs and them choosing to stay in the same city.You mean like Hummels going back to his family in Munich?
Do you think there is a clear pick between the bigger clubs in england for a rising youngster?
I think it's good that you keep pointing it out, because I agree, I too get the strong feeling that non-Bayern supporting Bundesliga posters are not realizing just how dominant we are, and how boring the title race is because of that.
There's just too little awareness of this aspect of Bundesliga, it's frankly baffling how this keeps being ignored.
Is a release clause mandatory in Germany?
Considering the amount of highly rated young talented CBs that seem to be emerging, can't say I care too much about his. Not seen much of either of these chaps but most aren't to think Konate and Kounde, for example, have just as much ability. But we have to get on of these big defensive talents in, that's for sure.
I never claimed that downplaying Bayern's dominance was the norm. That doesn't make any less sad/funny when it does happen.
I think you’re right - it is what it is, and I’m no football-CEO, but I don’t understand how it’s not preferred to skip a player to Italy, England or Spain, over moving them to Bayern? That I don’t get. And I don’t get lads like Neuer, Lewa, Goetze, Hummels and the like - who literally could choose ANY club in the world, but landed on Bayern. And to be clear - neither did I get it, when Wenger sold us RVP and didn’t just chuck him to Juventus. In my - maybe too small for my own good - little brain, I do not get selling players to rivals - IF - another move abroad is possible. “You what Gabriel Heinze? Wanna join Liverpool? Get fecked.” That’s the mentality I’d like some German teams adapt towards Bayern. Not because I dislike Bayern - but the league is asleep, and has been so for some time.
Who is even denying that? No Bundesliga supporter, not even Dortmund fans, disagree with the notion that the Bundesliga is a one horse race.
No, but most the top youngsters probably insist on one when extending their contract. He just extended his contract 1 year ago if I am not wrong and Leipzig probably was happy to include a release clause when he stay 1 or 2 seasons longer.
You are spot on. But what can you do about it?
The problem is that simple: Bayern is doing too well. But obviously you can't tell them to stop doing well.
In the 90's and 00's they were hated in Germany for exactly that already. The difference is, they were not galactico-esque good. From season to season, there were some clubs which were able to give them a go and were able to snatch some titles away. Unfortunately there has been a lot of mismanagement in other clubs during that times. So no one was able to consistently compete. Some even struggled to stay in the league after competing for the title a season before. It basically always was a different team which was challenging them, to name a few: Schalke, Dortmund, Stuttgart, Wolfsburg, Leverkusen, Kaiserslautern, Werder Bremen.
Internationally they were also not S-Tier. They were good here and there, but usually they were no favorites to win the CL.
But this has drastically changed in the 10's.
A few events have pushed them to get more ambitious and work much harder and better and also change their usual policies which held them back before.
Events such as:
- Ballack leaving for free to Chelsea (loss of prestige)
- Oliver Kahn ending his career (new era)
- Klinsmann losing 4-0 to Barca (not competitive in Europe)
- the success of Riberys transfer (their very first expensive purchase from abroad, which basically changed their policy of only getting cheaper players from Bundesliga)
- Van Gaal inventing a new, dominant, game philosophy
- Klopp's Dortmund humilating them twice in a row and getting very popular (now even dominance in Germany was at stake)
All this, and even more, made them the galactico-esque team they are today. Bundesliga has not become worse, they have just gotten so much better. You have to be on Real/Barca level to compete with this Bayern consistently. And obviously there is no team in Germany close to that.
So again, what to do about it? I, as a Bundesliga fan, enjoy having such a great team in our league. In the 00's i was full of envy seeing teams like AC Milan, Barca, the english teams etc. playing with top stars consistently to win UCL.
The solution to our problem is 'easy'. The Bundesliga needs one or better two teams more which can compete with them. Dortmund tried, but it's not possible, at least not over 10 years (after coming from almost beeing bankrupt). Their problem is not only the money, but also their prestige. As soon as one of their players develop into a star player, he desires to play for a top club such as Bayern, Real, Barca, or some English club. And this narrative, of not beeing a top club prestigewise, seems almost impossible to overcome only with hard work (and without an endless pocket of money).
Besides of them trying to develop the top talent in world football, i think their policy is a comparable approach to what Bayern has done in the 90's and 00's. Tap up the better players of lesser Bundesliga teams, as efficient as possible and grow from there over time. It is not working perfect for them right now, but they make up for it with their investments in talents from abroad. Over time i think they have the potential to become a top club. But this still takes a lot of time, probably more than another 10 years. Bayern has also not become as big they are today in just a few years.
There is also a team in Germany which could have done as good, if not better, than Dortmund over the past 10 years. They had everything they needed to go a comparable path. But their constant mismanagement is the reason why they absolutely deserve to be relegated this season as a consequence. They had it all, really. The fans, the attention (in Germany), more money than others and the by far best youth academy in Europe, if not the whole world, over the past decade. Schalke 04. But their management somehow lead them to the worst path possible, unfortunately.
And this kind of mismanagement is one of the reasons why Bayern is that dominant. And this will not change unless Bayern becomes much weaker. And if they don't, there is currently only hope in BVB and maybe RBL. But they still need a lot of time.
I am not even sure, if the fall of 50+1 would change anything. Would someone with oil money really buy a german club and do a PSG with them? I doubt that.
Sorry for wall of text. ^^
Good night!
I appreciate the post - it’s a great read! Especially the events leading Bayern on the all-conquering path - it’s really interesting. And you’re right - not much to do, especially not in cases like this with Upamecano who’s leaving on a release clause or the cases where Bayern are clever and pick up some great and not too expensive players like Kimmich, Parvard and Gnabry. As a neutral you could be forgiven for hoping Upamecano had wanted a go at Spain or England or maybe even staying - but Bayern is a trophy-guarantee and a good place if you want the national manager to notice you.
I hope you’re right and that down the line a Dortmund-challenge might be a possibility in the future - but God knows it’s not this year! Let’s see in 2022 if we’re having the same back-and-forth - but with Haaland’s name instead of Upamecano ;-)
I actually don’t disagree with your larger point but you picked like the worst examples to make the point
It's interesting that release clauses are such a big part of contracts in Spain and Germany whereas in England, it's just not a thing and hence small clubs can rinse bigger ones clean. For example, would Leipzig have lost Upamecano to another club willing to add in a release clause, hence they would have had to? Again in England I doubt players like Maddison or Grealish could do so. For us obviously it would be great if all the big talents here would have such clauses.
He was quick to sign on the dotted line as it became clearer Liverpool was his main alternative option. Good lad, I wish him well at Bayern in their domestic campaigns.
People were saying Konate vs better than Upamecano (I know minimal about either player)- however considering Bayern went for Upamecano then I'd say that they ended up with the best deal considering they hardly get transfers wrong.
The only way that I can see that they could have made a bad deal/bad transfer is if Bayern themselves are going through a rebuilding phase and finding themselves a bit lost (like how Barcelona & Real are atm).
The only way that I can see that they could have made a bad deal/bad transfer is if Bayern themselves are going through a rebuilding phase and finding themselves a bit lost (like how Barcelona & Real are atm).
They are three players away to chant "Vive La France".
X - Pavard, Upamecano, Kouassi - Sarr, Tolisso, Cuisance, Hernandez - Coman, X, X
X - Pavard, Upamecano, Kouassi - Sarr, Tolisso, Cuisance, Hernandez - Coman, X, X
Hundreds of clubs to go to? Are you serious?
RB Leipzig was in the CL semifinal last year and is definitely a top 20 club in Europe. On top it's very well run, with a clear vision of playing football and they with Nagelsmann they have one of the most exciting coaches.
That narrows his options down to less than 10 clubs, if he really wants to take the next step and join an elite team.
Bayern are currently the best team in world, like it or not. On top they are well known to run their club absolutely professionally. They got their famous Festgeld Konto and never recorded losses before this pandemic.
The 2 Spanish teams are in financial troubles, one more than the other of course. They are also in a rebuilding period. Not an easy task, especially in the middle of the pandemic.
Then you have Juventus, which are staffed with defenders and of course PSG.
In England you had Liverpool and Man Utd being interested.
Not really hundred of clubs to choose from.
There were plenty of players moving between top clubs.
Maguire, Kanye and Chilwell from Leicester. Arsenal lost many of their star players over the years.
Touré, Nasri, Clichy, Sagna, Adebayor joined Man City alone.
Ashley Cole joined Chelsea. Sanchez and van Persie joined Man United.
Got skinned alive by Rashford on multiple occasions. Probably didn’t feel up to it!
I think the general feel is that Upamecano is a bit better on the ball while Konate is a bit better defensively. With Bayern being as dominant as they are in the vast majority of games the extra ball-playing is probably a better attribute. Plus of course there is the issue with Konate's injuries over the last 18 months or so.
He looks like a better ball player than he is a defender so the Premier League is probably not a good fit for him.
Bayern doesn't have release clauses in their contracts.
RB Leipzig did it with Werner and Upamecano most likely as a concession to them signing new contacts and avoid the situation they could leave on free at the end of season.
As far as I know release clauses are mandatory in player contracts in Spain.
Upamecano is more a playing defender. Thus fits Bayern style of play better. He is also less injury prone.
None? I think Ashley Cole was considered the best left back in the PL the time he moved from Arsenal to Chelsea.
You just gotta love Bayern in the transfer market haven't you? Smooth as silk.
Pretty obvious meaning sadly.
Hope Upamecano stay in Germany. If PL, I think he ends up in City or LFC. Ok for me. I am not very interested in him. Spending on 40-50m Upamecano is to risky.
The German league is different to PL, especially the demands to CB. To me it seems like the CBs in Bundesliga get a way with a lot; they’re able to camouflage their vulnerabilities which probably will be more exposed in PL.
The German league is different to PL, especially the demands to CB. To me it seems like the CBs in Bundesliga get a way with a lot; they’re able to camouflage their vulnerabilities which probably will be more exposed in PL.
Makes sense, same league, moving to the best where he can have a reasonable chance to win leagues and champions leagues.
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