David Raya

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If he was half the shot stopper Dave is I'd take him, but he'd be a definite downgrade in that department.

Only keepers in the leagues that matches Dave are Alisson and Leno. We aren't getting Alisson, but if we can't renew De Gea I wouldn't mind asking Fulham for another refurbished goalkeeper.
 
He’ll be good as a backup, but nothing more. Didn’t exactly impress me against us.

We need a total upgrade on DDG, not someone who is a partial upgrade in something’s and a downgrade in shotstoping. People really losing themselves over an average keeper?

What we need is Costa! Or even the Milan goalie (haven’t watched much of him, but comes as better than Raya).

Oh, and BTW Raya will not cost mere 15M. More likely 40-50 M.
 
el diablorojo said:
Wonder how many times you’ve watched him play live to come to this conclusion of being bang average and a myth of a ball playing keeper - for what it’s worth you’re wrong on both counts.
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Admittedly I don’t watch all Brentford’s games but I’ve seen enough to form an opinion. We have a keeper who is one of the best shot stoppers but Ten Hag wants a keeper who is better with their feet and Raya isn’t great in my opinion. If we’re going to spend 40m+ on a keeper I’d rather look elsewhere

Ive seen the argument ‘but he’s taken De Gea spot in the national team’…he’s almost 28 and has been capped twice…not exactly comforting is it
 
Whilst I appreciate that DDG needs replacing for a more press resistant GK, people argue that Player X or Player Y would be an upgrade on on-ball talent but downgrade in shot stopping, I would ask, who isn’t?

I doubt many would argue that, for pure shot stopping, DDG is up there with the best in the world, so for an upgrade we need one of the best shot stoppers in the world who is ALSO an upgrade on the ball.

This is not Raya and is never going to cost us this amount. This will need to be a big outlay.
 
Jericholyte2 said:
Whilst I appreciate that DDG needs replacing for a more press resistant GK, people argue that Player X or Player Y would be an upgrade on on-ball talent but downgrade in shot stopping, I would ask, who isn’t?

I doubt many would argue that, for pure shot stopping, DDG is up there with the best in the world, so for an upgrade we need one of the best shot stoppers in the world who is ALSO an upgrade on the ball.

This is not Raya and is never going to cost us this amount. This will need to be a big outlay.
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This is where I'm at.

Yes we need a better overall footballer, but not with a significant downgrade in actual ability to keep the ball out the net.
 
PSV said:
If he was half the shot stopper Dave is I'd take him, but he'd be a definite downgrade in that department.

Only keepers in the leagues that matches Dave are Alisson and Leno. We aren't getting Alisson, but if we can't renew De Gea I wouldn't mind asking Fulham for another refurbished goalkeeper.
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Raya has made an average of 4.13 saves per game this season (the highest in the PL) versus De Gea's 2.66 (15th highest)
 
Jericholyte2 said:
What’s that as a percentage of the shots they’ve faced?
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This was before the weekends games, posted this in the DDG thread.

Raya has the highest save %(77) in the league this season and has faced the most shots 157. +2.8 psxg

Pickford has the 7th highest save %(73) and has face the third most shots 136. +2.9psxg

DDG has the 14th highest save %(67) and has faced the 9th most shots 111. -2.2psxg

Raya is way ahead of both in terms of claiming crosses, sweeping and passing too btw.
 
Oranges038 said:
This was before the weekends games, posted this in the DDG thread.

Raya has the highest save %(77) in the league this season and has faced the most shots 157. +2.8 psxg

Pickford has the 7th highest save %(73) and has face the third most shots 136. +2.9psxg

DDG has the 14th highest save %(67) and has faced the 9th most shots 111. -2.2psxg

Raya is way ahead of both in terms of claiming crosses, sweeping and passing too btw.
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Cheers, that’s a fair enough stat.
 
If we're going into psxG De Gea's psxG is better than Raya. Most people are just reading psxG wrong.
 
PSV said:
If we're going into psxG De Gea's psxG is better than Raya. Most people are just reading psxG wrong.
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Please elaborate on that. I've tried to keep away from this thread because I think it's bonkers in terms of how stats are used (and downplayed), but I would like to hear more on what you said.
 
Borys said:
Please elaborate on that. I've tried to keep away from this thread because I think it's bonkers in terms of how stats are used (and downplayed), but I would like to hear more on what you said.
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Well, we aren't 8th in the table because matches tend to reset every 90 minutes.
 
It means that using accumulated psxG is about as useful as goal difference and if you want to have a better perspective you have to break it down to a per-match basis.
 
PSV said:
It means that using accumulated psxG is about as useful as goal difference and if you want to have a better perspective you have to break it down to a per-match basis.
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And I understand you did this and the result shows De Gea is higher than Raya- can I see this? Because however I spin this table, De Gea is in the bottom half and lower than all the big names mentioned as possible replacement.
 
Borys said:
And I understand you did this and the result shows De Gea is higher than Raya- can I see this? Because however I spin this table, De Gea is in the bottom half and lower than all the big names mentioned as possible replacement.
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Yeah, I kinda did. The site you use just break it down on a per-90 basis, it doesn't go into matches themselves.

My point is that De Gea had something like -8 from just 3 games alone, that's at best worth 9 points for us, but he really only "theoretically" lost us a point vs City in those games as we weren't even close vs. both Liverpool and Brentford.

If we were to break it down into each individual match De Gea has won us 11 points, but lost us 4 points, while Raya has won 2 points and lost 3 points for Brentford going by psxG.

Games with +0,5 psxG:
Alisson - 12
De Gea - 11
Leno - 9
Pope - 8
Pickford - 7
Martinez - 7
Raya - 6
Ramsdale - 3
Ederson - 1

Games with -0,5 psxG:
Leno - 2
Pickford - 4
Alisson - 5
De Gea - 5
Raya - 5
Ederson - 6
Pope - 6
Ramsdale - 8
Martinez - 9

Points netted (won/lost) in these games:
Leno: 8 points (10/2)
De Gea: 7 points (11/4)
Alisson: 6 points (10/4)
Ramsdale: 5 points (6/1)
Pickford: 4 points (5/1)
Pope: 3 points (8/5)
Ederson: 0 points (2/2)
Martinez: -1 points (6/7)
Raya: -1 points (2/3)
 
PSV said:
Yeah, I kinda did. The site you use just break it down on a per-90 basis, it doesn't go into matches themselves.

My point is that De Gea had something like -8 from just 3 games alone, that's at best worth 9 points for us, but he really only "theoretically" lost us a point vs City in those games as we weren't even close vs. both Liverpool and Brentford.

If we were to break it down into each individual match De Gea has won us 11 points, but lost us 4 points, while Raya has won 2 points and lost 3 points for Brentford going by psxG.

Games with +0,5 psxG:
Alisson - 12
De Gea - 11
Leno - 9
Pope - 8
Pickford - 7
Martinez - 7
Raya - 6
Ramsdale - 3
Ederson - 1

Games with -0,5 psxG:
Leno - 2
Pickford - 4
Alisson - 5
De Gea - 5
Raya - 5
Ederson - 6
Pope - 6
Ramsdale - 8
Martinez - 9

Points netted (won/lost) in these games:
Leno: 8 points (10/2)
De Gea: 7 points (11/4)
Alisson: 6 points (10/4)
Ramsdale: 5 points (6/1)
Pickford: 4 points (5/1)
Pope: 3 points (8/5)
Ederson: 0 points (2/2)
Martinez: -1 points (6/7)
Raya: -1 points (2/3)
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Isn't that stat (points netted) influenced by the number of goals your team score in those games?
 
The imponderables with goal keepers, which don't show up in the stats, are always going to undermine a pure stats based judgement.

Raya plays for Brentford, Dave plays for United. I remember the problems we have had, with seemingly talented goalies and their crumbling confidence ounce they make a mistake at united, because a mistake at Brentford is forgotten the week after and held against a united keeper for ages.

Look at the Liverpool's keepers mistake in the champions league and see what that did to him.

The hardest thing for a keeper to do is pull off the great save after being inactive for most of a match.
 
What was pickfords stats from the weekend? He made alot of saves but from memory all were terrible finishes.

Not were great saves like the ramsdales 2 yesterday
 
arnie_ni said:
What was pickfords stats from the weekend? He made alot of saves but from memory all were terrible finishes.

Not were great saves like the ramsdales 2 yesterday
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Pickford vs us had 2,18 psxG faced, with 2 goals conceded, so a result of +0,18.
Ramsdale yesterday had 3,07 psxG faced, with 2 goals conceded, so a result of +1,07.
 
His stats might be good but the eye test doesn't work for me when it comes to him. If we're to upgrade on DDG it has to be someone better than Raya.
 
Don't Kill Bill said:
The imponderables with goal keepers, which don't show up in the stats, are always going to undermine a pure stats based judgement.

Raya plays for Brentford, Dave plays for United. I remember the problems we have had, with seemingly talented goalies and their crumbling confidence ounce they make a mistake at united, because a mistake at Brentford is forgotten the week after and held against a united keeper for ages.

Look at the Liverpool's keepers mistake in the champions league and see what that did to him.

The hardest thing for a keeper to do is pull off the great save after being inactive for most of a match.
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Yes stats are used indiscriminately here. A save % stat means nothing without context. DeGea‘s is over 80% in Europa League.

His concentration is excellent, which is what you need at United. Most games our gk has little to do, but he has to be ready when needed.

Raya 1vs1 is poor, while DeGea excels at it.
 
What's the plan with De Gea? I know we want to renew but does that mean he's our starting GK next season or Eth wants him as a bench option and dressing room presence
 
Castia said:
Admittedly I don’t watch all Brentford’s games but I’ve seen enough to form an opinion. We have a keeper who is one of the best shot stoppers but Ten Hag wants a keeper who is better with their feet and Raya isn’t great in my opinion. If we’re going to spend 40m+ on a keeper I’d rather look elsewhere

Ive seen the argument ‘but he’s taken De Gea spot in the national team’…he’s almost 28 and has been capped twice…not exactly comforting is it
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Well as someone who watches all of their games live home and away I can assure you that your opinion based on a small sample size is misplaced - he is excellent with his feet, that is the main reason he has taken De Gea's spot in the national team squad. As I've said previously I think De Gea is a superior shot stopper but I can't think of many keepers who are better than De Gea in that respect, if any. However on the ball and as a sweeper keeper the difference between De Gea and Raya is light and day.
 
el diablorojo said:
Well as someone who watches all of their games live home and away I can assure you that your opinion based on a small sample size is misplaced - he is excellent with his feet, that is the main reason he has taken De Gea's spot in the national team squad. As I've said previously I think De Gea is a superior shot stopper but I can't think of many keepers who are better than De Gea in that respect, if any. However on the ball and as a sweeper keeper the difference between De Gea and Raya is light and day.
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Bolded part is true, besides the fact that De Gea‘s kicking and passing is downplayed by those who want to replace him.

Against Everton he put Antony through for a 1v1 chance.

Basically, DeGea is competent enough to remain TenHag‘s keeper, unless someone better comes along. That someone is not Raya.
 
el diablorojo said:
Well as someone who watches all of their games live home and away I can assure you that your opinion based on a small sample size is misplaced - he is excellent with his feet, that is the main reason he has taken De Gea's spot in the national team squad. As I've said previously I think De Gea is a superior shot stopper but I can't think of many keepers who are better than De Gea in that respect, if any. However on the ball and as a sweeper keeper the difference between De Gea and Raya is light and day.
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I’d say Raya was as good a shot stopper as De Gea - he’s one of the better shot stoppers around, as is De Gea
 
I’m not saying Raya is the best option out there, but it depends how much we want to spend on that position at the expense of other areas. I’d say Raya is a clear overall upgrade and is gettable for a good price due to his club and his contract.
 
PSV said:
If he was half the shot stopper Dave is I'd take him, but he'd be a definite downgrade in that department.

Only keepers in the leagues that matches Dave are Alisson and Leno. We aren't getting Alisson, but if we can't renew De Gea I wouldn't mind asking Fulham for another refurbished goalkeeper.
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Are you suggesting that we sign Leno, or did I misunderstand something?
 
Too much money to spend on someone who might not even displace De Gea as first choice. I think it’s likely De Gea will be kept for at least one more season.

If we sign a keeper this summer I can see us bringing in a younger player like Verbruggen, Petrovic or someone similar who will develop either as backup or on loan.
 
Adnan said:
Sanchez will likely cost too much and it would probably make more sense to sign a keeper like Raya for a knock down fee for now.

But I do agree, Sanchez also looks the part and his ability on the ball was there to see against Liverpool.



Erik ten Hag needs to be ruthless and bring in the players he needs to boost the first and second phase of the build up or we'll always struggle to impose our game against teams who are adept at doing just that.
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Go back to the beginning of the season in our match against Brentford. De Gea was blamed for giving poor passes to marked players. One in particular was a pass to Erikson. Instead of giving it off first time, Erikson took a touch and lost the ball. People freaked out on here because they said De Gea never should have passed him the ball. We can see in this video the same pass happening over and over again. The difference is, the player it's passed to isn't taking a touch but rather passing it off with his first touch. If we were to bring someone like this keeper in, the "experts" around here need to understand that if this same pass happens and it gets messed up, it's usually on the player who received the pass, not the player who gave it. I'm not a huge De Gea fan. But it's not because of his ball playing ability. I personally think that he is more than capable with the ball at his feet. My biggest problem is his dominance (or lack there of) of his 6 yard box and his overall positioning.
 
Rojofiam said:
Are you suggesting that we sign Leno, or did I misunderstand something?
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In the event that De Gea leaves (can't agree contract) I think it could be a shrewd alternative.

The keeper I'd sign if it was up to me is probably Rønnow, but Leno wouldn't be that far off.
 
PSV said:
In the event that De Gea leaves (can't agree contract) I think it could be a shrewd alternative.

The keeper I'd sign if it was up to me is probably Rønnow, but Leno wouldn't be that far off.
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Arteta binned Leno in favour of a probably worse shot stopper in Ramsdale, just because the latter can use his two feet. The results speak for themselves.

With Leno, we would be downgrading on De Gea's shot stopping ability, while not solving the problem at all. The German is not a technical goalkeeper, and he doesn't have anything on De Gea either.
 
Rojofiam said:
Arteta binned Leno in favour of a probably worse shot stopper in Ramsdale, just because the latter can use his two feet. The results speak for themselves.

With Leno, we would be downgrading on De Gea's shot stopping ability, while not solving the problem at all. The German is not a technical goalkeeper, and he doesn't have anything on De Gea either.
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Results speak for themselves? Noone has more errors than Ramsdale this season. His passing is shocking. I think Arsenal would have been in at least the same position as they are now with Leno.

He's just lucky their attacking is as good as it is, he'd be the first player out if not.
 
PSV said:
Results speak for themselves? Noone has more errors than Ramsdale this season. His passing is shocking. I think Arsenal would have been in at least the same position as they are now with Leno.

He's just lucky their attacking is as good as it is, he'd be the first player out if not.
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You couldn't be more wrong.
 
Rojofiam said:
You couldn't be more wrong.
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ramsdale.png


Here's literally the two things I said backed up by numbers.
 
PSV said:
ramsdale.png


Here's literally the two things I said backed up by numbers.
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These stats look good for Leno, but Fulham doesn't play the same way Arsenal and City do...and he was replaced by Ramsdale for a reason.
 
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